22:01 <flocculant> #startmeeting
22:01 <meetingology> Meeting started Fri Nov 23 22:01:07 2018 UTC.  The chair is flocculant. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
22:01 <meetingology> 
22:01 <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
22:01 <bluesabre> :)
22:01 <flocculant> windered where the bot got  to :D
22:01 <bluesabre> that was my contribution, good to go now
22:01 <bluesabre> :D
22:01 * flocculant ponders things to see if anyone else shows up
22:02 <ochosi> do we have a clear agenda?
22:02 <flocculant> yea
22:02 <flocculant> it's about 10 yards long
22:02 <ochosi> kewl, sry, i'm lagging a bit behind
22:03 <flocculant> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
22:03 <ochosi> trying to fix a few xfce panel bugs meanwhile
22:03 <ochosi> k
22:03 <ochosi> no open action items i guess
22:03 <ochosi> regarding updates and announcements, only from upstream from my side
22:03 <flocculant> okey doke - so
22:04 <flocculant> #topic Open action items
22:04 <flocculant> all done
22:04 <flocculant> #topic Updates/Announcements
22:04 <flocculant> ochosi has none
22:04 <flocculant> neither do I
22:04 <flocculant> bluesabre ?
22:04 <ochosi> well depends, if you're interested in upstream xfce updates i can mention some stuff
22:05 <ochosi> and i guess bluesabre wants to mention his recent screensaver release
22:05 <flocculant> I'd guess so
22:05 <bluesabre> Sure
22:06 <bluesabre> #info xfce4-screensaver 0.1.3 released, https://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce-announce/2018-November/000651.html, more on this later
22:06 <flocculant> saw that one - where is it :p
22:06 <bluesabre> Somewhere
22:06 <flocculant> :D
22:06 <bluesabre> Not packaged yet, I think
22:06 <flocculant> ack
22:07 <ochosi> #info new development release of xfce-panel coming up soon, quite a few fixes since the previous version already
22:07 <bluesabre> But it's a good one ;)
22:07 <flocculant> re these updates - we only have 1 up to date dev ppa - will verything get there?
22:07 <ochosi> #info "primary display" support added to xfdesktop (which pretty much completes the feature in xfce) https://simon.shimmerproject.org/2018/11/12/adventures-in-primary-display-land/
22:08 <bluesabre> flocculant: yup :)
22:09 <flocculant> anything else?
22:09 <bluesabre> nothing from me
22:09 <bluesabre> my life has been a screensaver for the last several weeks
22:09 <flocculant> mine has been for 13 years ...
22:09 * bluesabre waggles the mouse
22:10 <flocculant> anyway - let's move swiftly along then :)
22:10 <ochosi> that's it from me too
22:10 <flocculant> #topic Discussions
22:11 <flocculant> #subtopic £" bit
22:11 <flocculant> sigh
22:11 <flocculant> #undo
22:11 <meetingology> Removing item from minutes: SUBTOPIC
22:11 <bluesabre> :)
22:11 <flocculant> #subtopic 32 Bit
22:12 <flocculant> so - given than we've now got no upgrades from 32 bit of any real use - I propose we finally kill this off
22:12 <bluesabre> related, https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=LibreOffice-6.2-Beta-1 LibreOffice 6.2 deprecates 32-bit builds
22:12 <flocculant> and that won't help
22:13 <bluesabre> nope
22:13 <flocculant> I think we should do a mailing list team vote on this one
22:13 <bluesabre> I agree.
22:14 <flocculant> ochosi: ?
22:14 <ochosi> yeah
22:14 <ochosi> agreed
22:15 <ochosi> (both, the killing off and the ML)
22:15 <ochosi> if the ML yields no relevant/clear results, we can take it to the council to decide
22:15 <flocculant> #action flocculant to mail list for Team vote on 32 bit
22:15 * meetingology flocculant to mail list for Team vote on 32 bit
22:16 <flocculant> #subtopic Minimal Install for Core-like experience
22:16 * flocculant lets bluesabre have a warble
22:17 <bluesabre> So, with the addition of the minimal install option on the ISO, there's more resistance than ever to approve and merge our patches to make Xubuntu Core official...
22:18 <ochosi> :/
22:18 <bluesabre> ... and there's basically a single person that is the gatekeeper of that now, so meh
22:18 <ochosi> this has been going on for far too long anyway
22:18 <bluesabre> Yup
22:18 <flocculant> right
22:18 <bluesabre> So I propose, we go the alternative route and add the minimal install option that the other flavors and main have opted for
22:19 <bluesabre> Same disk image, but with the option to install a subset of the packages
22:19 <flocculant> yea - from memory it's not quite the same - just a bunch of blacklisting?
22:19 <bluesabre> (technically it installs all the packages, then removes, but whatever)
22:20 <ochosi> urgh
22:20 <flocculant> mmm
22:20 <ochosi> so it really misses the point of a minimal install from my pov
22:20 <flocculant> ochosi: I'd agree
22:20 <ochosi> that's like passing an apt-get remove shell-script when you first start your session
22:20 <bluesabre> Yup
22:21 <ochosi> if the iso isn't smaller and the diskspace needed to complete the installation successfully, what's the point?
22:21 <ochosi> (a nor is missing there)
22:22 <ochosi> so while i usually agree with you, i'm not sure this helps people a lot bluesabre
22:22 <bluesabre> Just starting out with fewer installed packages. The diskspace savings is probably not substantial enough that it would be a different disk or partition, so that's not really the concern.
22:22 <flocculant> well
22:22 <bluesabre> Indeed.
22:22 <flocculant> for those people that want a minimal setup - the work's done for them?
22:23 <bluesabre> Yeah
22:23 <bluesabre> It's the core experience once the install's done
22:23 <ochosi> still feels misleading to call that minimal, but i guess if people are used to this from the other flavors...
22:23 <bluesabre> And it means 1 or 2 ISOs to test instead of 2 or 4
22:23 <flocculant> not getting drawn into that one ...
22:24 <bluesabre> :D
22:24 <flocculant> anyway - given there are just us - mailing list?
22:24 <bluesabre> So yeah, probably another thing to send off for vote.
22:24 <ochosi> yeah, probably
22:24 <ochosi> although the benefit needs to be clarified from my pov
22:24 <flocculant> yea
22:24 <ochosi> we get potentially more stuff to test
22:25 <flocculant> #chair bluesabre
22:25 <meetingology> Current chairs: bluesabre flocculant
22:25 * bluesabre sits
22:25 <flocculant> so you can do stuff
22:25 <ochosi> and users get a minimal setup, but only after providing enough diskspace
22:25 <flocculant> #chair ochosi
22:25 <meetingology> Current chairs: bluesabre flocculant ochosi
22:25 * ochosi bows
22:25 <flocculant> cos how can ignore ochosi :)
22:25 <flocculant> who even
22:25 <bluesabre> #action bluesabre to mail the list to vote on minimal install ubiquity option
22:25 * meetingology bluesabre to mail the list to vote on minimal install ubiquity option
22:26 <flocculant> #subtopic Orage
22:26 <flocculant> there's been some talk in channel about this
22:26 <bluesabre> Anything beyond "I don't use that"?
22:26 <flocculant> with some people not even sure we seeded it still :p
22:27 <ochosi> hehe
22:27 <ochosi> well i'm all for dropping it
22:27 <pleia2> I love orage
22:27 <flocculant> ^^ was ochosi I think :)
22:27 <ochosi> rly?
22:27 <pleia2> how else would I get 4 timezones in my panel?
22:27 <ochosi> pleia2: well it's good to hear ppl disagreeing, because i have a very clear opinion on it...
22:27 <flocculant> ochosi: I thought so ?
22:28 <flocculant> anyway
22:28 <ochosi> pleia2: wait, that's it..? the regular panel clock plugin can do that too...
22:28 <pleia2> the regular clock app has gotten better, I guess
22:28 <flocculant> I'm not all that worried either way - but if there are dev reasons to drop it
22:28 <ochosi> i thought you were using the ical stuff
22:28 <pleia2> didn't use to allow you to do some of the custom things, but now that it does maybe I'll give it a chance and report back ;)
22:29 <ochosi> the ical support (with an incredibly crappy UI) and the unmaintained codebase is all orage has over the regular clock plugin
22:29 <ochosi> the clock plugin even has a format validator now ;)
22:29 <ochosi> anyway, if you find a feature (apart from ical) that is in orage but not the clock lemme know
22:29 <pleia2> actually, clock seems to do what I need now :)
22:30 <pleia2> carry on!
22:30 <ochosi> :)
22:30 <bluesabre> :)
22:30 <pleia2> we should warn people though (release notes?) in case they're in my boat
22:30 <ochosi> so i'd like to propose to drop orage from our default install
22:30 <ochosi> we can keep it in the repos as a package, but just not install it by default
22:30 <pleia2> sgtm
22:30 <ochosi> pleia2: if they have it installed and upgrade it'll be retained anyway
22:30 <pleia2> yeah
22:30 <ochosi> so not sure what to warn people about
22:31 <ochosi> apart from "Warning: The regular clock plugin can do anything you did with orage before!"
22:31 <bluesabre> lol
22:31 <pleia2> when I do a new install I automatically was using orage
22:31 <flocculant> would it not just be in the release notes - this 'package' not there anymore
22:31 <flocculant> ?
22:31 <bluesabre> (yes)
22:31 <ochosi> yup
22:31 <pleia2> ochosi: that's fine :)
22:32 <flocculant> so if people used it - they'd read the notes (of course) then install it
22:32 <ochosi> yup
22:32 <pleia2> yeah
22:32 * flocculant wasn't at all sarcastic
22:32 <pleia2> :P
22:32 <ochosi> thing is, i'd rather not ship stuff by default that is unmaintained
22:32 <pleia2> yeah
22:32 <ochosi> (last release 4yrs ago)
22:32 <flocculant> agreed
22:32 <flocculant> and we're almost quorum
22:32 <flocculant> sigh
22:33 <ochosi> plus, it's one of the few remaining gtk2 plugins in xfce
22:33 <bluesabre> Suppose I could address that
22:33 <brainwash> but isn't Orage a calendar application?
22:34 <ochosi> brainwash: yes, but a rather bad one
22:35 <brainwash> so, maybe there is a need for a replacement
22:35 <ochosi> partly because it uses the (unmaintained) gtkcalendar widget that really doesn't work well for calendars
22:36 <ochosi> doesn't thunderbird partly do that?
22:37 <brainwash> it could be that an offline calendar is not needed anymore
22:37 <ochosi> (doesn't use desktop calendars or mail clients in ages)
22:37 <bluesabre> We can take it to vote, and if we drop, it can be restored based on user feedback
22:37 <ochosi> yeah
22:37 <flocculant> shall we perhaps do a quick vote on this now - and then push that to ml for people to ignore?
22:37 <flocculant> bluesabre: right
22:37 <bluesabre> thunderbird's lightning plugin is not installed by default, but reasonably could be
22:38 <flocculant> I used that once upon a time
22:38 <flocculant> it was painful - though it was some time ago
22:38 <flocculant> woot
22:38 <flocculant> oops
22:38 <bluesabre> :D
22:38 <flocculant> so vote here now - or just ml it?
22:38 <ochosi> personally i'd only go for alternatives if ppl ask for it
22:38 <ochosi> maybe it's really not needed
22:38 <bluesabre> yup
22:38 <ochosi> i'd vote here
22:39 <flocculant> #voters flocculant bluesabre ochosi pleia2
22:39 <meetingology> Current voters: bluesabre flocculant ochosi pleia2
22:40 <flocculant> #vote Remove Orage from seed
22:40 <meetingology> Please vote on: Remove Orage from seed
22:40 <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
22:40 <bluesabre> +1
22:40 <meetingology> +1 received from bluesabre
22:40 <flocculant> +1
22:40 <meetingology> +1 received from flocculant
22:40 <ochosi> +1
22:40 <meetingology> +1 received from ochosi
22:41 <flocculant> pleia2: ?
22:42 <pleia2> +1
22:42 <meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
22:42 <flocculant> #endvote
22:42 <meetingology> Voting ended on: Remove Orage from seed
22:42 <meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
22:42 <meetingology> Motion carried
22:42 <flocculant> do we go with that then - or carry it over to ml
22:43 <ochosi> i'd inform ppl on the ML
22:43 <ochosi> we'll at least see if there is a big outcry that way
22:43 <flocculant> #action flocculant to note to ml
22:43 * meetingology flocculant to note to ml
22:43 <flocculant> #subtopic Add Apturl to seed
22:44 <flocculant> this is something I always wondered about
22:44 <ochosi> yeah, i'd say why not?
22:44 <flocculant> I think Unit193 had some reservations about it
22:44 <bluesabre> Doesn't seem like it would hurt, and would generally improve user experience
22:44 <flocculant> mmh
22:45 * flocculant check the pad
22:46 <flocculant> wasn't there - maybe it was in channel. something about being out of sync with debian ?
22:46 <flocculant> p'raps
22:46 <flocculant> bluesabre: would that sound right?
22:47 <bluesabre> It'd just be a part of our seed. I think Unit193 had some reservations, but wasn't specific.
22:47 <flocculant> mmm
22:47 <bluesabre> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AptURL for folks reading along
22:47 <ochosi> yeah, i read that a few mins ago
22:47 <ochosi> i felt it's unproblematic
22:48 <bluesabre> Could be used in our docs too if we wanted
22:48 <flocculant> well - I'd like to get as many things dealt with tonight as possible, but if someone in team had reservations I think we should take it to ml
22:48 <flocculant> ? thoughts
22:48 <bluesabre> Agreed
22:48 <ochosi> k
22:49 <flocculant> #action flocculant to mail list re adding Apturl to seed
22:49 * meetingology flocculant to mail list re adding Apturl to seed
22:49 <flocculant> #subtopic Adding GIMP to seed
22:49 <flocculant> from my pov - we took this out because space
22:49 <pleia2> yeah
22:49 <flocculant> we now have space - I'd just add it back
22:50 <ochosi> +1
22:50 <bluesabre> We shipped GIMP in Xubuntu until Wily Werewolf due to space concerns
22:50 <ochosi> i always install gimp
22:50 <pleia2> it's one of the first things I install
22:50 <bluesabre> Same
22:50 <bluesabre> Probably the same for a lot of folks
22:50 <bluesabre> It's pretty ubiquitous
22:50 <flocculant> so I would do vote as before and report to list
22:50 <ochosi> bluesabre: wow, you still remember when we removed it..? holy crap!
22:50 <bluesabre> ochosi: had to research that recently
22:50 <ochosi> oh ok :)
22:50 <flocculant> I don't remember when - I do remember us doing it
22:50 * bluesabre has had a simmering rage since Wily
22:50 <flocculant> #vote Add Gimp to seed
22:50 <meetingology> Please vote on: Add Gimp to seed
22:50 <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
22:51 <bluesabre> +1
22:51 <meetingology> +1 received from bluesabre
22:51 <flocculant> +1
22:51 <meetingology> +1 received from flocculant
22:51 <pleia2> +1
22:51 <meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
22:51 <ochosi> +1
22:51 <meetingology> +1 received from ochosi
22:52 <flocculant> #endvote
22:52 <meetingology> Voting ended on: Add Gimp to seed
22:52 <meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
22:52 <meetingology> Motion carried
22:52 <flocculant> #subtopic Add Libreoffice Impress to see
22:52 <flocculant> #undo
22:52 <meetingology> Removing item from minutes: SUBTOPIC
22:52 <flocculant> #subtopic Add Libreoffice Impress to seed
22:52 <flocculant> this was me
22:53 <ochosi> hm, i mean i install it too by default now, but only because i need it at work
22:53 <ochosi> at home i really never open impress
22:53 <pleia2> I always install that too
22:53 <flocculant> given that we no longer are quite so worried about seed size - I'd like to add this in with the other Libreoffice things we do - seems silly to not have it
22:53 <ochosi> but i can imagine many ppl need it
22:54 <bluesabre> I have no complaints about including it, and folks have asked for it for years
22:54 <ochosi> flocculant: any clue how much space it adds approx?
22:54 <flocculant> ochosi: adding it to live session > https://pasteboard.co/HMojyQ9.png
22:54 <ochosi> right, that seems ok
22:54 <flocculant> I did that a while back when I added it to the pad
22:55 <flocculant> I got lost near Haytor in the fog
22:55 <flocculant> oops
22:55 <bluesabre> :D
22:55 <ochosi> oh, you did? :D
22:55 <pleia2> hehe
22:55 <ochosi> or did you get lost in all your channel tabs..?
22:55 * flocculant spits tea at the screen - again
22:56 <flocculant> ochosi: :p
22:56 <brainwash> it seems to pull in libreoffice draw also
22:56 <knome> a wild knome suddenly appears [N/E/S/W]?
22:56 <flocculant> brainwash: yea
22:56 <ochosi> knome: oh wow, now we have to take all the votes again :'D
22:56 <knome> nah
22:56 <bluesabre> we can really get things done now
22:56 <knome> as long as you make ML threads i can just disagree with you there ;)
22:56 <brainwash> is Draw needed?
22:57 <ochosi> not sure if adding it to the seed also installs all recommends
22:57 <ochosi> but apt does that by default now
22:57 <ochosi> (in ubuntu)
22:57 <flocculant> brainwash: not sure - didn't dig that far
22:57 <pleia2> meh draw
22:57 <knome> doesn't draw bring in all the (surprise) drawing stuff like vectors?
22:57 <bluesabre> brainwash: yes, https://packages.ubuntu.com/cosmic/libreoffice-impress
22:58 <pleia2> I think because people embed draw things in impress slides
22:58 <knome> yes
22:59 <brainwash> "Design powerful and intuitive flowcharts with Draw."
22:59 <brainwash> looks useful
22:59 <knome> if everybody else ships draw with impress, wouldn't it potentially create one of those "but xubuntu is worse because even drawing stuff doesn't work!" -like sentiments
22:59 <flocculant> right
23:00 <knome> if we have space/motivation to bring in impress, bring in draw as well
23:00 <pleia2> yeah
23:00 * flocculant makes note not to add knome to voter list - because interminable talking :D
23:00 <bluesabre> it's a package depend, impress brings it without question
23:00 <flocculant> #voters knome
23:00 <meetingology> Current voters: bluesabre flocculant knome ochosi pleia2
23:00 <knome> ;)=
23:00 <ochosi> brainwash: it's the visio counterpart
23:00 <knome> bluesabre, unless we blacklist it :P
23:00 <bluesabre> does that work for depends?
23:00 <knome> but yes, i wasn't advocating for that anyway
23:01 <knome> i have no idea, let's not figure out?
23:01 <bluesabre> fine
23:01 * bluesabre breaks something else
23:01 <knome> woohoo!
23:01 <flocculant> good chap
23:01 <brainwash> so, this would result in having the full libreoffice suite installed I'd think
23:01 <knome> no base?
23:02 <knome> the database thing
23:02 <brainwash> ohh
23:02 <bluesabre> yeah, don't need that
23:02 <bluesabre> :D
23:02 <knome> or is it pulled by something
23:02 <flocculant> yea - it doesn't add the database - just whats in the screenie
23:04 <ochosi> let's vote?
23:04 * bluesabre votes to vote
23:04 <knome> sure.
23:05 <flocculant> #vote Add LibreOffice Impress to seed
23:05 <meetingology> Please vote on: Add LibreOffice Impress to seed
23:05 <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
23:05 <flocculant> +1
23:05 <meetingology> +1 received from flocculant
23:05 <knome> +0
23:05 <meetingology> +0 received from knome
23:05 <pleia2> +1
23:05 <meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
23:05 <bluesabre> +1
23:05 <meetingology> +1 received from bluesabre
23:05 <ochosi> +1
23:05 <meetingology> +1 received from ochosi
23:06 <ochosi> it's so great to have knome around for the voting
23:06 <knome> i know...
23:06 <ochosi> :D
23:06 <bluesabre> even when he abstains :|
23:06 <bluesabre> (meant to be :P)
23:06 <flocculant> better the devil you know
23:07 <flocculant> #endvote
23:07 <meetingology> Voting ended on: Add LibreOffice Impress to seed
23:07 <meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
23:07 <meetingology> Motion carried
23:07 <ochosi> uhm, gnome software, oh noes
23:07 <flocculant> #subtopic Status update on GNOME Software / alternatives?
23:07 <flocculant> so
23:07 <bluesabre> so
23:07 <flocculant> I hate this still
23:07 <ochosi> i think gnome software isn't great, but the alternatives also aren't
23:07 <flocculant> and still refuse to use it :p
23:07 <ochosi> synaptic is still unmaintained
23:07 <flocculant> synaptic works fine - it's just not pretty - and I don't buy stuff
23:07 <ochosi> and unchanged
23:08 <knome> but it's still around
23:08 <flocculant> better maintained than before I believe
23:08 <ochosi> knome: orage is also still around :p
23:08 <knome> but synaptic works, right? :P
23:08 <bluesabre> it does
23:08 <flocculant> yep
23:08 <bluesabre> and sometimes gnome-software does not
23:08 <brainwash> gnome-software has snaps and firmware updates
23:08 <brainwash> that's pretty nice
23:08 <bluesabre> it does have that going for it
23:08 <flocculant> I did look for the mate one - but I think that's now a snap
23:09 <knome> i really really don't like gnome-software (that's to say, i don't hate it either, but i don't like it), but i don't use even synaptic any more, so...
23:09 <brainwash> bluesabre: and it uses appdata, another plus
23:09 <bluesabre> had to patch for that recently, after folks removed exo and killed their xfce
23:10 <flocculant> I don't think we're going to get very far with this discussion
23:10 <flocculant> again
23:10 <bluesabre> indeed
23:10 <brainwash> personally, my main concern with gnome-software is that it keeps running in the background after "closing" it
23:10 <ochosi> yeah
23:10 <bluesabre> it's one of those things... there's no great options, so the status quo just persists
23:10 <ochosi> that's one thing i also dislike
23:10 <flocculant> brainwash: right
23:10 <brainwash> which is a bit over 100MB
23:11 <knome> when i last used it, it was sluggish when ran too :/
23:11 <ochosi> i remember before gnome software we were unhappy with ubuntu-software
23:11 <flocculant> one I didn't like was it leaving things behind - but I think that's been SRU'd now
23:11 <ochosi> so "yay"
23:11 <knome> ochosi, indeed
23:11 <ochosi> i'm just not motivated enough, but if i had the time and motivation i'd probably just do a proper UI for synaptic and use that instead
23:12 <flocculant> ochosi: ack - but moving because we had to just added different issues
23:12 <ochosi> (how hard can that be)
23:12 <flocculant> quite
23:12 <flocculant> I couldn't do it :D
23:12 <ochosi> i think two afternoons of work for two people
23:12 <bluesabre> uh oh
23:12 <brainwash> but that's only the UI
23:12 <flocculant> or 2 years if one was me
23:13 <brainwash> features will be still missing
23:13 <ochosi> i know
23:13 <flocculant> I think the issue is the paid stuff and snaps
23:13 <ochosi> doesn't it also handle flatpak?
23:13 <ochosi> or is that only outside ubuntu
23:13 <bluesabre> So, it's feeling like we keep gnome-software for now for lack of anything "better"
23:13 <brainwash> don't forget that the Gnome project will keep improving -software
23:14 <bluesabre> flatpak can be enabled easily
23:14 <bluesabre> the various backends are plugins
23:14 <ochosi> anyway, i think we can leave the discussion there. as bluesabre and others mentioned, we won't get further
23:14 <flocculant> brainwash: 'improving'
23:14 <flocculant> ok - works for me ochosi
23:15 <brainwash> can't make it any worse :>
23:15 <bluesabre> brainwash: shhhh
23:15 <flocculant> #subtopic Replacing Light Locker with Xfce Screensaver
23:15 <flocculant> I'm sure someone has loads to say about this :p
23:15 <bluesabre> hi
23:15 <flocculant> ohai
23:16 <brainwash> it's good to have screensavers back
23:16 <bluesabre> I've been working on a replacement for light-locker/gnome-screensaver/mate-screensaver/xscreensaver
23:16 <bluesabre> And I'm happy to say my laptop turns on after I close and open the lid! :D
23:16 <flocculant> that's good :)
23:16 <ochosi> lol
23:17 <ochosi> yeah, my only point is that if you think it's stable enough i'd include it
23:17 <flocculant> what was the issue on the xfce list re that and /usr/lib (or somesuch)
23:17 <ochosi> so that's all that depends on from my pov
23:17 <bluesabre> A bit of info https://docs.xfce.org/apps/screensaver/start and https://bluesabre.org/2018/10/15/xfce-screensaver-0-1-0-released/
23:17 <flocculant> I'm waiting to see the results of the FIXED to the 2 bugs I found ochosi :)
23:17 <ochosi> :)
23:18 <bluesabre> ochosi: I think it's pretty stable as of the release I pushed out this morning, but I'd like to get it to the PPA for folks to kick the tires a bit
23:18 <flocculant> so would I
23:19 <flocculant> I assume that I could git it - but I don't want to unless I need too - I'd like a pretty relaxed 6 months this time :p
23:19 <bluesabre> flocculant: link to the /usr/lib thing (or was this some time ago and the thing I fixed for OpenBSD)?
23:19 <bluesabre> flocculant: and yeah, will have that packaged sometime this weekend
23:20 <flocculant> aah yea OpenBSD
23:20 <flocculant> that's the one
23:20 <bluesabre> cool
23:20 <bluesabre> Fixed
23:20 <flocculant> and ok cool
23:20 <bluesabre> And not us ;)
23:20 <flocculant> \0/
23:20 <flocculant> :)
23:21 <flocculant> anyway - as others are quiet I assume no problems so lets just vote
23:21 <flocculant> #vote Replace LightLocker with Xfce Screensaver
23:21 <meetingology> Please vote on: Replace LightLocker with Xfce Screensaver
23:21 <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
23:21 <flocculant> +1
23:21 <meetingology> +1 received from flocculant
23:21 <pleia2> +0
23:21 <meetingology> +0 received from pleia2
23:21 <knome> +1 as long as it is stable at release time
23:21 <meetingology> +1 as long as it is stable at release time received from knome
23:21 <bluesabre> Not really anything to vote on yet, it was more of an informational thing :D
23:21 <pleia2> :)
23:22 <flocculant> I hatez you
23:22 <bluesabre> +1 pending folks testing
23:22 <meetingology> +1 pending folks testing received from bluesabre
23:22 <ochosi> +1 as long as it is stable at release time
23:22 <meetingology> +1 as long as it is stable at release time received from ochosi
23:23 <flocculant> think we should still go for it anyway - regardless
23:24 <flocculant> #enddvote
23:24 <bluesabre> #endvote
23:24 <meetingology> Voting ended on: Replace LightLocker with Xfce Screensaver
23:24 <meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
23:24 <meetingology> Motion carried
23:24 <flocculant> #undo
23:24 <meetingology> Removing item from minutes: INFO
23:24 <knome> umm
23:24 <knome> no?
23:24 <flocculant> that was close
23:24 <bluesabre> interesting
23:24 <knome> you can't remove false commands
23:24 <knome> and votes either, i think
23:24 <flocculant> never mind
23:25 <flocculant> couldn't find it in the manual knome :p
23:25 <bluesabre> :)
23:25 <knome> heh
23:25 <flocculant> #subtopic Applying Xubuntu defaults to commonly used apps (Plank, others)
23:25 <flocculant> ok
23:25 <flocculant> so as much as I like the idea
23:25 * knome grins at the thought of an automatic knome
23:25 <flocculant> I'm dead against it
23:25 <bluesabre> oh?
23:26 <flocculant> you give me a list - and I'll give you another
23:26 <knome> if we have people to *maintain* those defaults...
23:26 <flocculant> we will never please people here
23:26 <flocculant> right - well one of mine uses Qt
23:26 <bluesabre> that's true
23:26 <knome> the idea is to make them integrate well with xubuntu, right?
23:26 <bluesabre> yeah
23:27 <knome> and explicitly for the appearance-related things, to look like xubuntu
23:27 <bluesabre> Yep
23:27 <flocculant> right
23:27 <flocculant> so - Qt doesn't
23:27 <bluesabre> Like the Xubuntu Light theme in gedit, GTK theme for Plank, etc
23:27 <knome> so if we change some stuff in default settings/apps, then those changes should be migrated to the "commonly used app" defaults too
23:27 <flocculant> I do like the idea
23:28 <knome> i don't mind shipping an "incomplete" list of default settings with xubuntu
23:28 <flocculant> but I don't see how we can do this - without getting a load of whataboutery
23:28 <knome> what i mind more is shipping stuff that isn't really "xubuntu" with xubuntu
23:28 <knome> if people complain about missing support for $my_favorite_thing, we can invite them to collaborate
23:29 <bluesabre> but I do see the concern about it balooning
23:29 <knome> sure, but then again all defaults we ship for non-default apps is just extra
23:29 <flocculant> knome: I know the pov - but fix it if you want - I just don't like that
23:30 <knome> like likerally, it's extra service we offer
23:30 <flocculant> or don't
23:30 <flocculant> that's the question isn't it
23:30 <bluesabre> yeah, basically the reason for the agenda item
23:30 <knome> the only potentially negative side is if these defaults somehow mess up user customizations
23:31 <knome> so we set a default for X to be Y and the user wants X to be Z... but can't because a default is shipped
23:31 <ochosi> we already do ship some of this stuff
23:31 <ochosi> like the compton config
23:31 <knome> i know that's not how defaults work - but it's not really "defaults" as much as "globals" for some things
23:31 <ochosi> it's mostly a question of whether we want to extend that
23:31 <knome> if we have creators, why not?
23:31 <ochosi> plus, plank already is supported by greybird, it's just not configured
23:31 <flocculant> see
23:32 <knome> i wouldn't put the limited work hour artwork team to work on stuff like this
23:32 <flocculant> I'd like Cantata to look ok in Xubuntu
23:32 <bluesabre> flocculant: Is Cantata a qt app?
23:32 <flocculant> yea
23:32 <flocculant> it looks ok'ish with the Qt5 thingy
23:33 <bluesabre> I was planning to have a one-click "make qt apps look less bad" in the xubuntu tweak item
23:33 <flocculant> but it looks out of place - but I put up with it - because I'm me and not xubuntu-art :)
23:33 <flocculant> right
23:33 <knome> bluesabre, any reason why that click can't be automated?
23:34 <bluesabre> knome: basically because the qt5-styles-plugin brings in a lot of qt things that probably shouldn't be in iso
23:34 <knome> ah yes that
23:34 <knome> anyway, let's stick to subject for now...
23:34 <bluesabre> yeah
23:35 <flocculant> point
23:35 <knome> so to repeat myself and to clarify: if we have the creators (and maintainers) for these additional default stuffs, i'd happily support including them
23:35 <flocculant> given that this was Spass's thing - and he's of late been trying to be involved - I'd like to move this to the ml - even if he can't vote
23:36 <bluesabre> certainly
23:36 <knome> even to the point that i could do some "reviews" on the stuff (given time etc. permits) and help them become more "xubuntu"
23:36 <flocculant> knome: ack
23:39 <flocculant> #action flocculant to mail list re applying Xubuntu defaults to various apps
23:39 * meetingology flocculant to mail list re applying Xubuntu defaults to various apps
23:39 <bluesabre> cool
23:39 <ochosi> guys, i gotta go in 3mins
23:39 <ochosi> so maybe just a brief comment on the last agenda item
23:40 <flocculant> ochosi: okey doke - you had comments on the last I think
23:40 <flocculant> #subtopic Developing "Xubuntu Tweak"
23:40 <flocculant> ochosi: so if you want to warble now on your pov
23:40 <ochosi> this may be a pet project of "someone" (not looking at you, bluesabre), but i really think we have more important tasks - even if it would be nice to get something like that *i guess*
23:41 <ochosi> e.g. getting the panel prefs dialogs HIG aligned ;)
23:41 <knome> my gut reaction is "oh god don't call it anything *tweak*"
23:41 <ochosi> so in general i think we're really closing in on xfce 4.14 and i'd rather focus on that then develop new downstream stuff
23:41 <bluesabre> I suggest it as a tool to easily apply current defaults (say you've upgraded all the same way from dapper and make everything feel cosmic)
23:41 <bluesabre> Or applying easy fixes, "MY QT5 looks bad"
23:42 <ochosi> yeah right, sounds like a dirty python app :p
23:42 <bluesabre> Yes
23:42 <pleia2> I have to step away for family things
23:42 <knome> pleia2, o/
23:42 <ochosi> just sayin, it may also end up being time consuming with bugfixes and people adding stuff to the wishlist
23:42 <knome> and ochosi p/
23:42 <bluesabre> It wouldn't be a pretty thing, it'd be scripty
23:42 <bluesabre> yeah
23:42 <ochosi> and it's not a bad idea, just not a very high-prio one
23:42 <ochosi> from my pov
23:42 <bluesabre> Right, that's fair
23:42 <ochosi> but who am i to tell anyone else what to do with their free time ;)
23:43 <bluesabre> Might be a future release thing after 4.14
23:43 <bluesabre> But wanted to get the idea out there
23:43 <knome> ...and it doesn't get my support either if its name has the word "tweak" in it :P
23:43 <ochosi> lol
23:43 <ochosi> yeah, tbh i'd personally rather do something like an xfce profile manager
23:43 <knome> rather "the xubuntu winkywonky tool"
23:43 <bluesabre> "Xubuntu Repair & Adjustment Tool Box"
23:43 <bluesabre> lol
23:44 <ochosi> that would be an upstream thing that combines display profiles, panel profiles, and practically all other settings
23:44 <knome> +1 for the profile manager, the name sounds 100× more professional as well
23:44 <ochosi> anyway, those were my 2cents
23:44 <bluesabre> Yeah, it could do everything that didn't need package-y things
23:44 <bluesabre> thanks ochosi
23:44 <ochosi> https://git.xfce.org/archive/xfce4-profile-manager/
23:44 <ochosi> :>
23:44 <bluesabre> but yeah, just an idea for now
23:44 <ochosi> (yeah, obviously not a new idea)
23:45 <knome> could we do a quick fix for this with some blog articles etc?
23:45 <bluesabre> ochosi: clearly an old idea
23:45 <bluesabre> 2011
23:45 <bluesabre> :O
23:45 <knome> well not fix, more like a workaround
23:45 <ochosi> yeah, i worked on it with stephan at some point
23:45 <ochosi> knome: yeah, FAQs help
23:45 <ochosi> we can even add the one-liner that "fixes your QT5 apps"
23:45 <ochosi> to the FAQ
23:45 <bluesabre> I'd be happy with FAQs
23:45 <ochosi> so it becomes a copy-paste job
23:45 <bluesabre> with apturl it becomes a click
23:45 <bluesabre> :D
23:46 <ochosi> lol
23:46 <ochosi> indeed
23:46 <knome> either or, we can do both
23:46 <ochosi> alrighty, night everyone!
23:46 <knome> nighty ochosi
23:46 <bluesabre> nighty ochosi, thanks for dropping by!
23:46 <flocculant> ochosi: night - thanks :)
23:47 <flocculant> ok - so are we going to get anywhere with this tonight - because it's now 23:47
23:47 <flocculant> :p
23:47 <knome> you're wrong
23:47 <knome> it's 01:47
23:47 <bluesabre> flocculant: I have nothing more to say about the tweak app, it's not going to be a disco thing, too much other stuff to do :)
23:47 <flocculant> furriner
23:47 <flocculant> bluesabre: ok
23:48 <flocculant> lets table that then
23:48 <knome> i think the "only" action item is that we should write blog stuff on things that the tool would take care of -- so people can get on with it already
23:48 <bluesabre> that seems fair
23:49 <bluesabre> #nick xubuntu-team
23:49 <knome> the drafting part likely falls for bluesabre since he has an idea of the things that should be easier
23:49 <flocculant> #action knome to look at making some inroads in to helping users with tweaks - via whatever media he chooses
23:49 * meetingology knome to look at making some inroads in to helping users with tweaks - via whatever media he chooses
23:49 <knome> but i can definitely help on the proofreading, figuring out how to publish etc.
23:49 <flocculant> #topic AOB
23:49 <flocculant> anyone got anything else ?
23:50 <bluesabre> nothing from me
23:50 <flocculant> I guess at some point we should talk about the pad - but I'm losing the will to live tonight
23:50 <knome> not that it comes as a surprise, but i might continue keeping on a bit quieter this cycle as well...
23:50 <flocculant> yup
23:50 <knome> you can always reach me via email or pinging at IRC though
23:50 <knome> and i will very likely reply within 24 hours
23:51 <knome> -- and please, don't hesitate to ask if you have anything
23:51 <flocculant> and I'm trying to peg back - though I'm always reachable and will do the bare minimum where needed, really would prefer to be looking more Xfce now
23:51 <flocculant> #topic Schedule next meeting
23:51 <flocculant> da duh duh ...
23:51 <flocculant> it is still
23:51 <knome> it's so much easier to help with direct requests than try to figure out something sensible to start working yourself...
23:51 <flocculant> slickymaster's
23:51 <flocculant> go to run the next one
23:51 <knome> just skip him
23:51 <flocculant> #endmeeting