20:00 #startmeeting 20:00 Meeting started Tue Apr 7 20:00:18 2015 UTC. The chair is Unit193. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. 20:00 20:00 Available commands: action commands idea info link nick 20:00 #chair knome 20:00 Current chairs: Unit193 knome 20:00 Howdy everyone. 20:00 evening 20:00 welcome to the Xubuntu community meeting. Agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings 20:01 Anyone else around? If not, this'll be nice and short. 20:01 #topic Open action items 20:01 who knows 20:02 elfy: Did we tie up everything for xubuntu-core testing? 20:02 afaik 20:02 Great, same here. I didn't see anything else needing testing. 20:02 #done Unit193 to tie up with elfy for xubuntu-core upgrade testing needs 20:02 #done elfy to add the "game issue" into the meeting agenda 20:03 knome: Did you talk to ochosi about setting up a team vote? 20:04 * ochosi doesn't recall being talked to 20:04 * Unit193 gives ochosi a stern talking to. 20:04 but it couldn have happened a longer time ago so maybe i don't remember 20:04 Alright, we'll carry forward... 20:04 team vote about what? 20:05 "ACTION: knome to follow up with ochosi on setting up a team vote - or allowing more time for discussion" 20:05 That's what I see. 20:05 yeah, i know 20:05 but no topic 20:05 That's all I know. 20:05 awesome :) 20:05 another one of those carried forward ad infinitum that we've all forgotten the topic off now? 20:05 i guess i'll just "allow more time for discussion" :D 20:06 ha ha ha 20:06 #nick knome 20:06 #action knome to follow up with ochosi on setting up a team vote - or allowing more time for discussion 20:06 * meetingology knome to follow up with ochosi on setting up a team vote - or allowing more time for discussion 20:06 #topic Team updates 20:06 Free for all, any updatese? 20:06 perhaps there should be a #action make the agenda make sense ... 20:07 sorry for being late guys, but it's dinner time over here and the little doesn't make any compromises 20:07 #info ochosi pushed some fixes to Greybird, but likely too minor for 15.04 20:07 #info testing for b2 went ok, bugs about - more global than us 20:07 #info figures in for QA incentive 20:07 #info ochosi prepared a (hacky) patch for ubiquity-dm to hide the desktop icons in bug #1437180 20:07 bug 1437180 in xubuntu-default-settings (Ubuntu) "Desktop Icons show on the install only desktop" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1437180 20:07 #info exo and thunar fixes uploaded to vivid. 20:08 ochosi: Ah good. 20:08 #info March sticker pack winner is PaulW2U 20:08 #info Final Beta sticker pack winner is saqman2060 20:08 #action elfy to tie up with pleia2 re contacting them both 20:08 * meetingology elfy to tie up with pleia2 re contacting them both 20:09 if any of you wanna chime in about the ubiquity-dm fix, feel free to get in touch 20:09 ? 20:10 I had some #info items, but I don't know now where I placed them :P 20:10 elfy: well i dunno, if you have an opinion on it etc 20:10 oh 20:10 the icon issue? 20:10 yeah 20:11 I only really had one thing to find out - and bluesabre put my mind at rest 20:11 the question (partly) is: is the situation bad enough that we want a hacky fix pushed that we'll have to revert in 15.10 20:11 We could move this to discussions. :P 20:11 is there a bug in xfdesktop? 20:11 I would agree they look a bit daft - but maybe better to leave well alone over the next 3 weeks 20:12 i'm here. 20:12 Unit193: agreed, let's discuss it a bit later (also re: micahg :) ) 20:12 #topic Discussion items 20:12 ochosi: Want a subtopic right now? 20:12 elfy: thanks, happy to ship off the stickers this week 20:12 Unit193: yeah, let's do that 20:13 #subtopic Desktop Icons show on the install only desktop 20:13 ochosi: Have at it. 20:13 pleia2: cool - I'll mail them as QA and cc you in as we did last time 20:13 * pleia2 thumbs up 20:13 :) 20:13 ok, so the problem is quite easily explained, we use xfdesktop to draw the wallpaper in our ubiquity install-only session 20:14 in 15.10 we'll likely switch to feh for drawing the wallpaper 20:14 just makes more sense, xfdesktop has far too many features and all we really want is a wallpaper below ubiquity 20:14 so the diff i attached on the bugreport basically switches the icons on the desktop setting off via an xfconf-query call 20:15 it's really not a pretty solution 20:15 but it'll do the trick 20:15 micahg: thoughts? ^ 20:16 if that's the best option and only affects us, I think that's fine 20:16 tbh i don't know about "best" 20:16 but the release date is closing in on us, and we might want a fix 20:16 micahg: By default, it'll affect Studio too. Myth doesn't release except for LTSes though. 20:17 yeah, that's true 20:17 Generally speaking, studio is less concerned with the desktop, and more interested in a/v. 20:17 looks relatively harmless 20:17 yeah, i tested the xfconf command in a ubiquity live session 20:18 actually there's even a second setting i would change, but i don't want to add another 6 lines for almost nothing 20:18 (disable the right-click menu on the desktop, which allows launching of any other app) 20:18 Racy? 20:19 well, possibly 20:19 you mean in case xfsettingsd hasnt started yet? 20:19 dunno whether these commands are called synchronously or async 20:20 generally speaking, calling xfsettingsd and then xfdesktop could also be considered racy 20:20 brb 20:21 Alright, well either way bluesabre isn't here, so. 20:21 let's keep an eye on timing, final freeze is next week 20:22 #action ochosi to get in touch with bluesabre about the patch for ubiquity, and xfdesktop icons. 20:22 * meetingology ochosi to get in touch with bluesabre about the patch for ubiquity, and xfdesktop icons. 20:22 Any other remarks on this topic? 20:22 not from me 20:22 the trick with patching ubiquity is if there's a problem later, it's much harder to change 20:22 Indeed. 20:22 just FYI 20:22 #subtopic GIMP in the default seed (mailing list discussion) 20:23 ooh, idr seeing that 20:23 knome: ^ 20:23 nnniiiice. 20:24 well, it's the mailing list discussion. 20:24 https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2015-January/010560.html 20:24 i don't think there is a conclusion 20:24 oh, was a while ago 20:25 yea - these have been dragging their heels, mostly because 15.10 20:25 back 20:25 the gimp discussion wasn't also very long 20:25 Same discussion every time, it's overkill, but there's no good simple editors. 20:25 i think the thing that we know now (again) is that there isn't really a suitable replacement, because there really isn't 20:25 yep 20:25 Is pinta an option? 20:25 No. 20:25 so maybe the question is: does the still want to stick with GIMP? 20:26 *the team 20:26 or is it a valid option to drop it 20:26 dkessel: There were a couple reasons, but mono is the biggest one. 20:26 pinta will pull in mono 20:26 knome: what would be your main argument for dropping it? 20:26 micahg: o/\o 20:26 ok 20:26 ochosi, it's huge, it's much more than a regular user needs 20:27 what about MyPaint? 20:27 i don't think it has ever specifically contributed to the "xubuntu experience", we've been shipping it because some users and team members like it shipped 20:28 * Unit193 20:29 Description-en: paint program for use with graphics tablets 20:29 ? 20:29 http://mypaint.info/ 20:29 micahg, that's misleading, but it's not like gimp, it's a drawing app more than an image editor 20:29 thanks Unit193 20:29 yeah, the gimp does both 20:29 The pictures are scaring me. 20:29 micahg, and it is better with graphic tablets. 20:30 So, seems to be something we're not looking at. 20:30 so we'd have to first think what aspect of gimp we'd like to replace with *something* 20:30 yes 20:30 * knome facepalms 20:30 that discussion has come and gone 20:30 yeah :) 20:30 you can refer to the old comparison in the wiki 20:30 Yes,and ristretto still hasn't learned how to resize. :P 20:30 it probably would make sense to do one of those 20:30 the fact is that there is no suitable app that does it 20:31 it being the features we want to replace in gimp 20:31 So while it's overkill, it does what we need and can't find something else to do it. 20:31 but instead of shipping the huge gimp because there isn't an alternative, and kind of giving up, why don't we drop it? 20:32 xpaint seems to have the same "features" in th wiki 20:33 we could also switch back to shipping gthumb and drop ristretto and gimp 20:34 Too bad theres no gimp-minimal 20:34 Meh, always thought gthumb was useless. 20:34 micahg, no version update since precise 20:34 isn't it a little late in the cycle to be updating seeds? 20:34 yeah, let's not reintroduce gthumb 20:34 micahg: For wombat. 20:34 ah 20:34 I'd like to table this so we can move on to the next disucssion that's neverending. :P 20:35 ochosi, we can write a small script set that allowed the user to handle their images from thunar 20:35 ochosi, just link that to a custom action for all images. 20:35 resize, rotate, you name it 20:35 you mean via imagemagick? 20:35 yep. 20:36 those who need more complex tools can install one from the repositories 20:36 +1 20:36 we can also try to add those features to ristretto at some point 20:36 imagemagick can even write text 20:36 so you can do a lolcat generator 20:37 ouch 20:37 what about shutter? 20:37 well i mean, wasn't that one of our prerequisites for the iamge editor... 20:37 micahg, the right place to do proposals for apps is the mailing list thread 20:38 i don't think it's a good use of everybody's time to mull over those in a meeting 20:38 We're discussing it now. :P 20:38 isn't that a screenshot tool? 20:38 yes, but it does have a nice editor in it 20:38 oh 20:38 i didn't know about that 20:38 2 for 1 :) 20:38 we have the xfce screenshooter.. 20:39 Description does seem very screenshooter centric. 20:39 Unit193, and their website is awful without js.. 20:40 Doesn't look like it can open existing files, or can it? 20:41 yes, it can 20:42 generally speaking, i don't mind dropping one of our apps for 15.10, also in terms of getting user feedback (i know, the vocal minority and all, but better than no feedback) 20:42 set up a team vote and get on with it. 20:42 : 20:42 :) 20:43 we can do one now if you guys and gals agree that that's a good idea :) 20:43 it's sorta funky timing with 15.04 not even released, but whatever 20:44 it'll get some votes done, rest of team can vote on m/l 20:44 * slickymaster agrees with elfy 20:44 wfm 20:45 Unit193, shall you set the poll up? 20:45 #vote Drop The GIMP from the default seed 20:45 Please vote on: Drop The GIMP from the default seed 20:45 Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname) 20:45 does +1 mean drop? 20:45 yeah 20:45 Yes. 20:45 -1 20:45 -1 received from Unit193 20:45 just making sure. 20:45 +1 20:45 +1 received from knome 20:45 -1 20:45 -1 received from micahg 20:45 +0 20:45 +0 received from elfy 20:45 +0 20:45 +0 received from ochosi 20:45 slickymaster 20:46 elfy, ochosi: does "+0" mean that you don't mind if it's in the seed or not? and if yes, wouldn't it mean it's better not to be on the seed since it can save space and hassle? 20:46 not trying to impact your opinion, just asking. 20:46 +0 20:46 +0 received from slickymaster 20:46 #endvote 20:46 Voting ended on: Drop The GIMP from the default seed 20:46 Votes for:1 Votes against:2 Abstentions:3 20:46 Motion denied 20:46 slickymaster, ^ same question to you 20:46 I've no opinion on it - hence sitting on the fence 20:47 exactly what you said knome, I don't mind if it's on the seed or not. 20:47 So, ochosi to carry over to the mailing list? 20:47 allllright 20:47 slickymaster, what about the second question? 20:48 #action ochosi to follow up with the gimp discussion on the list. 20:48 * meetingology ochosi to follow up with the gimp discussion on the list. 20:48 * slickymaster lost that one 20:48 what was it again knome? 20:48 knome: it can save space, not sure it'll really save us hassle. so far i don't remember any really critical bugreport related to gimp for us 20:48 but yeah, i'm open to dropping it 20:48 moving on perhaps 20:48 slickymaster, that if you don't care, wouldn't it pragmatically be better to drop it since it would save space and potential hassle 20:48 not convinced, but ok with it 20:48 #subtopic Default office applications (mailing list discussion) 20:49 elfy: Please, yes. 20:49 oh man, and another one... 20:49 but yeah, no need to stretch the discussion... 20:49 tbh I usualy uninistall it knome 20:49 we've had the discussions haven't we? 20:49 Yeah, so LO is much bigger, but more compatible. 20:49 elfy: Not in meeting. 20:49 elfy, yes, on the mailing list 20:50 I'm putting the kettle on ... 20:50 elfy: make some for me too 20:50 Right, so it's been discussed. Anyone ready to make a motion as to voting? 20:51 but the vote would be to just drop abiword/gnumeric or replace them with LO? 20:51 ochosi: Exactly, hence why I didn't just make one. 20:52 knome: ? 20:52 ochosi, i imagine two polls. 20:52 There's also online docs which people use, so dropping is an option. 20:52 ochosi, 1) frop abiword/gnumeric or not? 20:52 *drop 20:52 ochosi, if 1) yes, 2) install LO? 20:52 yes - but vote 2 could depend on vote 1 20:52 k, i'd be fine with two 20:52 elfy, yep. 20:52 #vote drop gnumeric/abiword from the seed 20:52 Please vote on: drop gnumeric/abiword from the seed 20:52 Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname) 20:52 -1 20:52 -1 received from micahg 20:52 +1 20:52 +1 received from ochosi 20:52 +1 20:52 +1 received from elfy 20:52 and to make sure, +1 is DROP, -1 is NO DROP 20:52 +1 20:52 +1 received from slickymaster 20:53 blah. 20:53 knome: yeah yeah ;) 20:53 -1 20:53 -1 received from Unit193 20:53 ochosi, for the log readers and all. 20:53 +0 20:53 +0 received from knome 20:53 Think that's everyone now. 20:53 yup 20:53 #endvote 20:53 Voting ended on: drop gnumeric/abiword from the seed 20:53 Votes for:3 Votes against:2 Abstentions:1 20:53 Motion carried 20:54 Right, anyone wanting to carry that to the list? knome? 20:54 and the next one is to have calc and writer only? 20:54 nnooo 20:54 lol 20:54 knome: sure you do ;) 20:54 ochosi can do that in the same email 20:54 #vote Add Libreoffice or parts of it to the seed 20:54 Please vote on: Add Libreoffice or parts of it to the seed 20:54 Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname) 20:54 -1 20:54 -1 received from Unit193 20:54 -1 20:54 -1 received from micahg 20:54 -1 20:54 -1 received from knome 20:54 +1 20:54 +1 received from elfy 20:54 +1 20:54 +1 received from slickymaster 20:54 knome: no, that would be too confusing 20:54 ochosi, :P 20:55 ochosi, i'll do it then... but in a way, this vote makes no sense until the vote on the ML has ended 20:55 ochosi: Votre, man! 20:55 oui! 20:55 because if most people want to keep abiword/gnumeric, we aren't installing LO.. 20:55 +0 20:55 +0 received from ochosi 20:56 #endvote 20:56 Voting ended on: Add Libreoffice or parts of it to the seed 20:56 Votes for:2 Votes against:3 Abstentions:1 20:56 Motion denied 20:56 ochosi, hah :P 20:56 so, no LO, no abiword and gnumeric 20:56 #action ochosi to follow up the office discussion on the ML. 20:56 * meetingology ochosi to follow up the office discussion on the ML. 20:56 :P 20:56 yeah, based on this portion of the team 20:56 oopsie. now ochosi has to do it 20:56 Unit193: maaaan 20:57 #subtopic Default game change (mailing list discussion) 20:57 woohoo! 20:57 hrm, I really think it needs to be one vote, unless we're looking to not have a replacement (or there are other alternatives besides LO( 20:57 and this one - I assume we're talking about sgt ? 20:57 micahg: Well, technically online docs or the KDE one. 20:57 elfy: It's whatever you put on there. :D 20:58 i would vote for the sgt-puzzles on ONE CONDITION 20:58 Unit193: I didn't ... 20:58 It doesn't look so ugly? 20:58 that somebody (bluesabre) makes a game selector app for it 20:58 and that it only appears as one menu item, not bazillion 20:58 currently it's too obtrusive. 20:58 I'd not say that 20:59 ...in my opinion 20:59 :P 20:59 unless you happen to have bunches of games installed :) 20:59 then I'd agree with you 20:59 i have a few to tenish depending on the machine 21:00 the sheer amount of games is baffling. 21:00 i wouldn't say it would be best to split them to separate packages... 21:00 ...but i'd like that personally. i only fancy less than 10 of them anyway 21:01 shall we shelve this and see what bluesabre's opinion on that possibility is first? 21:01 fwiw, i'll put the office vote-stuff in one email since the votes are directly related 21:01 ochosi, yep. 21:01 elfy, he's said it's possible, i wouldn't have brought it up otherwise :) 21:01 elfy: Yes, was thinking the same. 21:02 knome: I assumed but that gets tricky in months time ;) 21:02 elfy, because? 21:02 because then I find that what I assumed isn't the case ;) 21:03 heh 21:03 knome: How would you like to carry it on? Re: meetingology? 21:03 we can surely get an official response from sean to this 21:03 and it'spossible isn't the same as it's possible and I've got time 21:03 i guess: what do other people feel about sgt-puxxles? 21:03 s/xx/zz/ 21:03 s'ok 21:04 is it worth even investigating to creating a game selector 21:04 I don't know it, but I honestly don't pay attention to games 21:04 I just think that 'games' in our install is stale - all we seem to have done is remove a couple and leave it 21:04 briefly, it's a collection of dozens of small puzzle games 21:04 that are a great short distraction 21:05 not something you'd play for hours 21:06 So, I'm hearing a "Why bother?" "I don't really care." and "They are a short distraction." 21:06 the way I see the discussion about the games is that everyone always use the argument that people paly them while installing the iso 21:07 Unit193, i was trying to give a brief description for them. i'm all +1 if we can get the number of menu items down. 21:07 and I'm +1 for ringing the changes 21:07 knome: Right, yours seems to reflect that. 21:07 needs to use exo-open or xdg-open 21:07 with that change, I'd be ok including it 21:07 on the other hand, if we decided to ship no games, i would be completely fine with that too 21:08 mmm 21:08 Alright, so lets carry this forward to when bluesabre is here, alright? 21:08 so to be crystal clear... 21:08 then if we go that way and no abiword/gnumeric or replacement - just work with core 21:08 i'm "+0" on "ship games or not ship games", but if we are shipping, then i'm "+1 sgt-puzzles if they have a single launcher" 21:09 Good to know. 21:09 elfy, but ff/tb/etc 21:09 elfy: There's still afew things. 21:09 Unit193: I'm good with getting bluesabre's input before deciding 21:09 Unit193: yea :) 21:09 knome: ^^ 21:09 #action knome to be in touch with bluesabre on sgt-puzzles launcher 21:09 * meetingology knome to be in touch with bluesabre on sgt-puzzles launcher 21:09 move on. 21:10 Great. 21:10 #subtopic March/Beta 2 Incentive winners 21:10 again ... 21:10 I info'd that 21:10 and I've mailed them both already 21:10 Yep, it was there, wasn't sure if there's anything else to discuss. 21:10 Alright, so we're moving on then. 21:10 I do have a point 21:10 however ... 21:10 Ah, great. 21:11 all the time we've been discussing this I've been - shouldn't include team 21:11 but as I do the figures every month I feel rather sorry for jjfrv8 ;) 21:11 who tests like a ninja 21:12 we could give him an honorary sticker? 21:12 or do a whole cycle for team winner set 21:12 excluding me though 21:13 right, i'd be fine with either 21:13 personally, i dont think we have to make a rule up for everything 21:13 ok - I'll check with pleia2 to make sure we've got enough - pretty sure we do 21:13 Action? :D 21:13 unless anyone has an issue with that ofc 21:13