22:39 <knome> #startmeeting Xubuntu meeting: Xfce 4.11 components in 14.04 and more
22:39 <meetingology> Meeting started Sun Nov  3 22:39:21 2013 UTC.  The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
22:39 <meetingology> 
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22:40 <Noskcaj-school> whiskermenu 1.2 has just been released, it will be ready for upload this week.
22:40 <knome> #topic Cherry-picking Xfce 4.11 components
22:40 <ochosi> ok
22:40 <knome> so,
22:40 <ochosi> just arrived
22:41 <knome> let me start with what i think
22:41 <knome> we should keep the 4.11 components we have in 13.10
22:41 <ochosi> ping eric_the_idiot
22:41 <knome> in addition, we should drop the gtk3 indicators patch into 14.04
22:41 <ochosi> +1
22:41 <eric_the_idiot> ochosi, pong
22:41 <knome> as well as the new xfdesktop features
22:42 <Noskcaj-school> +1, but try and backport some of the patches from settings 4.11.1
22:42 <Noskcaj-school> Nearlky everything else needs the new xfce4ui
22:42 <Noskcaj-school> *nearly
22:42 <knome> we can discuss backporting/SRUing gtk3 indicators to 13.10, but that's not a high-priority, i would say medium
22:42 <micahg-work> +1
22:42 <micahg-work> to knome
22:43 <knome> the reason why i additionally want the xfdesktop features in is that they will make it easier for the user to control their wallpapers
22:43 <knome> 1) they allow setting a specific dir to look for wallpapers instead of the system-wide one
22:43 <micahg-work> we already have that though, right?  I wasn't talking about going backwards
22:43 <ochosi> yeah, and it goes hand-in-hand with the new display-dialog (helps ppl to set their wallpapers per display)
22:44 <knome> no, i don't think we have that
22:44 <ochosi> yeah, we don't
22:44 <knome> so the new-new thing for 14.04 would be: gtk3 indicators and new xfdesktop release
22:44 <knome> and i will personally promise i will organize enough testing for them
22:44 <elfy> read that ;)
22:45 <knome> if not else, i'll make my mum test it.
22:45 <skellat> If we can squash LP Bug 1208204 via backports that may help with perception issues we have about 13.10
22:45 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 1208204 in indicator-sound (Ubuntu) "indicator-sound no longer functions with xfce4-indicator-plugin" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1208204
22:45 <skellat> Which would require the GTK3 things
22:45 <micahg-work> well, as long as xfdesktop doesn't risk LTS -> LTS upgrades or has major dependencies, I'm fine with that
22:45 <ochosi> skellat: yeah, or some less intrusive fix, not sure whether it's possible. ali1234?
22:46 <brainwash> the uproar about the broken sound indicator is now almost gone anyway :)
22:46 <knome> micahg-work, as ochosi said, xfdesktop should take care of the migration itself
22:46 <ochosi> eric_the_idiot: any upgrade issues you can see?
22:46 <micahg-work> well, at the very least, we can throw it in backports
22:46 <micahg-work> if there's demand (GTK3 indicators)
22:46 <Noskcaj-school> xfwm might be worth investigating, vsync is a good thing to have. But i'm not sure how stable it is
22:46 <micahg-work> I just need the testing
22:46 <brainwash> what about the new xfwm4 release with vsync support?
22:46 <brainwash> Noskcaj-school: :D
22:46 <knome> the focues should be getting 14.04 in a *good* shape
22:46 <Noskcaj-school> :)
22:46 <ochosi> brainwash: that's the same with every release, that's one reason why you get more relaxed with each release...
22:46 <knome> and with that, telling people to try to get along until that is released...
22:47 <ochosi> knome: +1
22:47 <knome> we can of course write a blog article with updates on the most irritating bugs
22:47 <knome> and their workarounds
22:47 <knome> and if we have time, backports
22:47 <ochosi> let's hope not too many...
22:47 <bluesabre> im back
22:48 <ochosi> wb bluesabre
22:48 <knome> ochosi, i'm referring to things we already know, pretty much the release notes mentioned bugs
22:48 <knome> there hasn't been too many new things after that
22:48 <ochosi> knome: yeah, we should knock those down. i'll mention one more thing that's looming ahead a bit later...
22:48 <knome> go ahead
22:49 <micahg-work> I'd be for backporting 4.12 to trusty-backports assuming we can get sufficient reverse dependency testing
22:50 <knome> yes, considering 4.12 is released during the trusty support period...
22:50 <ochosi> well the logind transition leaves us with a borked xfce4-powerman
22:50 <knome> bah..
22:50 <micahg-work> haha
22:50 <knome> okay, that's stupid.
22:50 <skellat> And Lennart Poettering is talking about breaking logind again
22:51 <knome> we should fix that.
22:51 <ochosi> xfce4-powerman doesn't support logind at all
22:51 <micahg-work> ochosi, we can hopefully come up with a patch for that
22:51 <ochosi> micahg-work: "we" = who?
22:51 <knome> let me do some #infos
22:51 <micahg-work> someone should be able to
22:51 <brainwash> bug 1222021
22:51 <ubottu> bug 1222021 in xfce4-power-manager (Ubuntu) "xfce4-power-manager does not inhibit systemd from handling buttons and lid events" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1222021
22:51 <micahg-work> well, is upstream planning to solve that?
22:51 <ochosi> yeah, the open question is *who*
22:51 <skellat> Is there a way to get rid of logind as a dependency for us in the mix?
22:51 <ochosi> not in time for 14.04 i think
22:52 <knome> #info New Xfce 4.11 features to be dropped into 14.04: GTK3 indicator support, new xfdesktop release
22:52 <micahg-work> I think we'd be better off writing the patch...
22:52 <brainwash> the patch does already exist
22:52 <micahg-work> a working one?
22:52 <knome> yes, that sounds like a good idea and a justifiable use of time
22:53 <brainwash> micahg-work: didn't test it yet
22:53 <micahg-work> well, if it works, let's get upstream to approve it, then we can move forward
22:53 <knome> #info Xfce 4.12 will be backported to Trusty if enough testing resources are available
22:53 * bluesabre equips testing hat
22:54 * pleia2 as well
22:54 <ochosi> micahg-work: the powerman isnt actively developed upstream, not sure we'd get much feedback
22:54 <ochosi> and systemd is a *hot* topic (as in: flamey)
22:54 <micahg-work> ochosi, is there a suggested replacement?  is that something we need to either pick up development for or find an alternative?
22:54 <skellat> ochosi: Mark Shuttleworth and Lennart Poettering have been arguing repeatedly on Google Plus about it
22:54 <brainwash> there is even a patch for xfce4-powerman to use logind directly instead of upower for suspend/hibernate
22:54 <brainwash> https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9963
22:54 <knome> #info Xfce power manager doesn't support systemd; we want a patch for that if at all possible
22:55 <ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 9963 in General "upower is no longer doing suspend/hibernate, switch to logind" [Normal,New]
22:55 <ochosi> skellat: i know
22:55 <ochosi> skellat: and it doesnt help...
22:55 <knome> micahg-work, there is always gnome-power-manager, but it isn't too long since we switched away from that...
22:55 <knome> #nick team
22:55 <ochosi> micahg-work: no, but i'm just saying looking at how xfce is moving along upstream, i think they'll be cautious about new depends/recommends
22:56 <knome> #action team to investigate patching xfce4-power-manager or finding alternatives
22:56 * meetingology team to investigate patching xfce4-power-manager or finding alternatives
22:56 <ochosi> i think the alternative is an easy UI for systemd/logind
22:56 <micahg-work> I'm for corsac's suggestion of runtime support for it
22:56 <ochosi> for what's currently stored in /etc/systemd/logind.conf
22:56 <ochosi> and dropping xfce4-powerman
22:56 <brainwash> ochosi: why not re-use xfce4-powerman :P
22:57 <ochosi> and using e.g. indicator-power
22:57 <ochosi> or some other applet to display battery status
22:57 <ochosi> brainwash: no reason against that, apart from not having any upstream maintainer/dev
22:57 <bluesabre> does xfce4-powerman handle screen-blanking, or is that something else?
22:57 <bluesabre> ochosi: we could always adopt yet another forgotten project :D
22:58 <micahg-work> if indicator-power will do what we need, then that's fine, otherwise, maybe we can pick up maintenance of xfce4-powerman together with corsac?  I'd hate to reinvent the wheel
22:58 <ochosi> bluesabre: theoretically yes, but i think xscreensaver does that now
22:58 <brainwash> it's X, powerman just sets the parameters
22:58 <bluesabre> but aren't we wanting to move away from xscreensaver?
22:58 <knome> yes...
22:58 <ochosi> bluesabre: yes, if we are, then this would be a solution:
22:58 <knome> i think we should move away from xscreensaver in favor of light-locker
22:58 <micahg-work> fine by me, should be quite a bit lighter as well
22:58 <bluesabre> I agree, and I think ubuntu is heading that direction as well based on their interest
22:58 <brainwash> micahg-work: I think so too, the patches do exist already and could be extended if needed
22:59 <ochosi> 1) use light-locker 2) use X11's screensaver-extension to blank the screen 3) use a logind/X11-screensaver ext dialog (we'd have to write that) to control it
22:59 <knome> micahg-work, and it would be a shame to throw out all the work we've done to get to this point!
22:59 <knome> and yeah, ubuntu wants light-locker as well
22:59 <ochosi> fwiw, light-locker has already been uploaded to trusty
22:59 <knome> was micahg CC'd/TO'd in that email?
23:00 <ochosi> i've talked to the uploader, but it hasn't been decided yet whether it'll be default afaik
23:00 <knome> ochosi, since they seemed very interested about it, we should try to collaborate with them
23:00 <ochosi> those processes aren't extremely transparent tbh
23:00 <ochosi> yeah, i agree
23:00 <knome> ochosi, or at least try to change information and track the progress
23:00 <ochosi> we've recently set up a translation portal for light-locker btw ;)
23:00 <knome> yay
23:01 <ochosi> i can #info that later if you want
23:01 <micahg-work> well, if Ubuntu doesn't move to it by default, I don't know that we want to be the pioneers in an LTS
23:01 <brainwash> the lubuntu guys would love to use light-locker :)
23:01 <ochosi> hihi
23:01 <ochosi> evil comment, brainwash
23:01 <knome> sure, and #info stuff about collaborating too as appropriate
23:01 <bluesabre> hehe
23:01 <knome> micahg-work, well, same as with 4.11 components; i'd really like that in and i will organize enough testing.
23:02 <knome> micahg-work, so please let's move forward with it and only not do it if it looks like it's going to be broken...
23:02 <ochosi> #info it would be great if users could help wth translations for light-locker here: https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/light-locker/
23:02 <knome> micahg-work, again, it's one of those things that we have prepared almost since the last LTS...
23:02 <micahg-work> knome, ?  we're responsible for the xfce components in the LTS, so our testing/fixing suffices, I'd rather us not be responsible for light-locker as well if we can avoid it
23:03 <ochosi> #info for info or assistance on the translations (about 10 strings) or transifex, feel free to ping ochosi on freenode.org
23:03 <knome> micahg-work, i understand that. and yes, i would like to avoid being responsible for that as well, but i don't think the fear of having to maintain should be the reason keeping us from using it.
23:03 <micahg-work> oh, I thought light-locker was created by Canonical, if it's an Xfce component, that's fine
23:04 <ochosi> it's neither
23:04 <knome> that
23:04 <knome> but it's something ochosi and bluesabre are familiar with
23:04 <ochosi> it was created by me and cavalier (an xfce-dev)
23:04 <micahg-work> oh, then, by all means :)
23:04 <knome> or at least ochosi :P
23:04 <knome> great!
23:04 <micahg-work> is it in Debian yet
23:04 <ochosi> but canonical are looking into picking it up by default
23:04 <micahg-work> which would be totally awesome
23:04 <knome> micahg-work, while we are at that, i want mugshot and menulibre in the seed for 14.04 as well. :)
23:05 <knome> micahg-work, they are not core components, and they are by bluesabre, who will hopefully have uploading rights by the release of 14.04
23:05 <ochosi> micahg-work: i haven't done any extra communication on that at all, but from what i read there was a proposal a while ago
23:05 <bluesabre> I'll get both of those in debian soon
23:05 <micahg-work> ok, I can't do much for the next 2 weeks, after that, I'll have more time again for Xubuntu
23:05 <bluesabre> working on the alacarte-replacing rewrite for menulibre
23:06 <knome> #info Other new components to drop for 14.04: light-locker, MenuLibre, Mugshot
23:06 <bluesabre> mugshot needs an update and then I'll try to get it in debian again
23:06 <knome> was that everything that was mentioned?
23:06 <micahg-work> menulibre should also make us a bit lighter
23:06 <knome> yep
23:06 <knome> and mugshot should make us user-friendlier
23:06 <pleia2> ++
23:06 <knome> micahg-work, what about python 2/3?
23:07 <micahg-work> sounds like this'll be an awesome LTS
23:07 <knome> yes, that's the plan...
23:07 <knome> that's the evil plan i've been carrying around since 12.10
23:07 <knome> you never would have guessed that! HA!
23:07 <micahg-work> knome, it would be nice to move to python3 only, but I"m more concerned about stability than that since we have only 3 years of support
23:07 <knome> micahg-work, sure, just asking as it was mentioned in the roadmap brainstorming
23:08 <knome> now that we have a bigger ISO it's not a showkiller.
23:08 <micahg-work> right
23:08 <brainwash> bigger ISO... mmh, libreoffice :)
23:08 <knome> ochosi, did you want to talk about whiskermenu?
23:08 <micahg-work> noooooooOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!
23:09 <ochosi> yeah, good point
23:09 <knome> oh btw,
23:09 <ochosi> whiskermenu would be a nice addon and replacement for our current menu
23:09 <knome> ubuntu lately changed their system requirements to 1GB of memory
23:09 <knome> so we are now well under
23:09 <ochosi> it's really fast and lightweight, i've tested it for a while, it adds search-capability to the menu (sweet!)
23:09 <ochosi> and it's far more customizable than the integrated menu
23:10 <knome> how does menulibre work with those menus?
23:10 <ochosi> bluesabre: ^
23:10 <knome> or, in other words, how useful is menulibre for a user using whiskermenu
23:10 <bluesabre> same
23:10 <bluesabre> whiskermenu is a searchable xfce menu
23:10 <bluesabre> same thing, different interface
23:10 <knome> okay
23:11 <bluesabre> so when I fix menulibre, it will work fine with either
23:11 <ochosi> we could bind it to a kb-shortcut
23:11 <ochosi> e.g. super+space
23:11 <ochosi> so users could quickly bring it up to launch apps
23:11 <brainwash> isn't it alt+esc right now?
23:11 <ochosi> (just as a more understandable and visually integrated alternative to xfce4-appfinder)
23:11 <brainwash> ctrl+esc I mean
23:12 <ochosi> (although appfinder is atm still more powerful with custom commands)
23:12 <ochosi> brainwash: well, up to us to decide i think, mine was just a suggestion
23:12 <knome> ochosi, would you be willing to put up some kind of spec for the proposed whiskermenu integration with some highlights and screenshots why it would be so awesome, as well as talking a bit about the panel layout (with possibly a finalish proposal on that), ideally before thursday?
23:13 <ochosi> knome: in general yes, before thursday is not realistic (PM)
23:13 <knome> well the deadline for finalizing specs is november 21
23:13 <bluesabre> ochosi: could you talk to mrpouit and get whiskermenu in the xfce-4.10 and/or xfce-4.12 ppa?
23:14 <knome> but would be good to have *something* on that before thu, since we're discussing and approving most of the roadmap then
23:14 <skellat> bluesabre: Is it in on the Debian side?
23:14 <ochosi> bluesabre: i think there's already a PPA (give me a sec)
23:14 <micahg-work> knome, FWIW, I'll talk to barry, if there are plans to drop python2.7 to universe, I'd be much more encouraged to port to python3
23:14 <knome> micahg-work, oki
23:14 <knome> #nick micahg
23:14 <micahg-work> bluesabre, I could probably upload that
23:14 <bluesabre> skellat, I believe it is in debian now, will check
23:14 <lderan> woo for pyton 3
23:14 <lderan> python*
23:14 <knome> #action micahg to talk to barry about python2.7/3 situation
23:14 * meetingology micahg to talk to barry about python2.7/3 situation
23:14 <bluesabre> micahg-work, sweet
23:15 <micahg-work> bluesabre, remind me in a couple days
23:15 <bluesabre> will do, thanks micahg-work
23:15 <skellat> bluesabre: packages.d.o doesn't show it
23:15 <bluesabre> skellat: http://ftp-master.debian.org/new/xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin_1.1.1-1.html
23:15 <knome> bluesabre, micahg-work: you can do #action items if you want reminders. i'll go through those on thu
23:15 <bluesabre> its in new
23:15 <ochosi> knome: there's a really nice blog about it: http://gottcode.wordpress.com/category/open-source/whisker-menu/
23:15 <ochosi> (by the dev)
23:16 <pleia2> cool
23:16 <ochosi> there are screenshots and all the bells and whistles
23:16 <micahg-work> #action micahg to upload whiskermenu to xfce PPAs
23:16 * meetingology micahg to upload whiskermenu to xfce PPAs
23:16 <ochosi> thanks micahg-work
23:16 <ochosi> please check it out folks, it seems like a nice improvement and would justify getting rid of the bottom panel (that no-one seems to use anymore :))
23:16 <lderan> will do :)
23:16 <brainwash> the switch to whisker menu feels like copying linux mint xfce edition :P
23:17 <knome> ochosi, feel free to paste that link to the roadmap page
23:17 <ochosi> brainwash: well, it was the other way round for a while now, wasn't it ;)
23:17 <bluesabre> brainwash, but we'll do it better ;)
23:17 <micahg-work> seems there are about 130 rdepends for python2.7 in main
23:17 <brainwash> yeah, it will be awesome
23:19 <elfy> ochosi - I quote like whiskermenu
23:19 <knome> so...
23:19 <knome> do we want to talk about other things that we want to land in 14.04?
23:19 <ochosi> knome: done
23:19 <bluesabre> ooh, a new wallpaper!
23:19 <bluesabre> ;)
23:19 <knome> or other development-related issues that should be resolved ASAP?
23:20 <knome> bluesabre, bollocks, we'll use the old one
23:20 <ochosi> well, folks, help us to find *free* wallpapers
23:21 <skellat> Eventually there'll be movement on the -core draft seed but nothing tonight
23:21 <brainwash> we just rotate the current one, just like the ubuntu guys do it
23:21 <ochosi> or contact the authors of the images of this page and help us get them to change the license: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Raring/Wallpapers
23:21 <ochosi> they should all be cc-by-sa
23:22 <ochosi> knome: and i guess we should move that page to trusty... ^
23:22 <knome> ochosi, rather copy it and add a link to the raring page saying it's postponed
23:23 <knome> ochosi, i can do that unless you want to do it.
23:23 <ochosi> knome: no, please do, brb
23:23 <brainwash> what about xmir? definitively no, right?
23:24 <skellat> brainwash: We haven't heard of anything new from them and haven't had an intervening UDS yet.
23:24 <pleia2> I think it's highly unlikely that ubuntu will go with it in an LTS
23:24 <pleia2> if they try, I think we can do more tests, otherwise push to 14.10
23:24 <knome> ochosi, moved to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Trusty/CommunityWallpapers
23:25 <knome> err, copied :P
23:25 <ochosi> knome: great, #info it? :>
23:25 <bluesabre> :D
23:25 <brainwash> right, the development of xmir seems to be rather slow and some things still do not work properly
23:25 <ochosi> knome: we could also do a call on the ml, but specifically announce that there'll be an internal council that decides on the final selection
23:25 <pleia2> brainwash: it actually seems fast for me, it's just a HUGE undertaking
23:26 <knome> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Trusty/CommunityWallpapers
23:26 <ochosi> knome: xubuntu being a do-ocracy and all...
23:26 <knome> ochosi, yup-di-do
23:26 <bluesabre> d'oh-ocracy?
23:26 <Noskcaj-school> :)
23:26 <bluesabre> :)
23:26 <knome> #action ochosi announces the community wallpapers project on the mailing list
23:26 * meetingology ochosi announces the community wallpapers project on the mailing list
23:26 <skellat> brainwash: Never underestimate the possibility of unexpected breakthroughs when you least expect them.  They're trying to supplant over 25 years of technical archaeology so they have a monumental task at hand.
23:26 <knome> oops, i just wrote in ochosi instead of knome! :)
23:26 <bluesabre> haha
23:26 <ochosi> knome: bastard! :)
23:26 <elfy> :)
23:26 <bluesabre> not an accident
23:27 * ochosi feels tricked
23:27 <knome> well actually, i'm not a basterd..
23:27 <knome> :P
23:27 <lderan> :P
23:27 <skellat> :-!
23:27 <bluesabre> :wq!
23:27 <knome> ochosi, transifex sucks, do i really have to sign up for an account to be able to translate anything? (or in other words, if you send me the .pot-file, i'll reply with a fi.po)
23:28 <ochosi> knome: transifex.com has a really nice web-interface, but if you prefer, you can also have it your way (email)
23:29 <knome> i didn't seem to be able to get it delivered
23:29 <elfy> ochosi: I might be able to get someone to do the Galician translation
23:29 <ochosi> elfy: great! thanks
23:29 <knome> or at least i needed to allow loads of JS, and still didn't work...
23:29 <elfy> ochosi: but they'd not want to be signing up for anything
23:29 <ochosi> knome: well let's finish the meeting before we talk transifex :)
23:30 <knome> ochosi, hehe.
23:30 <knome> so anything else?
23:30 <knome> micahg-work, you content with everything?
23:30 <Noskcaj-school> I didn't see any python or whiskermenu stuff, but i assume that's my internet crashing
23:30 <elfy> Noskcaj-school: yep
23:31 <knome> Noskcaj-school, micahg-work is looking at python stuff, ochosi does a whiskermenu spec at some point
23:31 <Noskcaj-school> log reading time
23:32 <knome> #agreed 14.04 is going to be an awesome and solid LTS!
23:32 <knome> #endmeeting