14:59 <knome> #startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting
14:59 <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Aug 22 14:59:22 2013 UTC.  The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
14:59 <meetingology> 
14:59 <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
14:59 <knome> #topic Items carried on
14:59 <knome> #subtopic Open action items from previous meeting
14:59 <knome> #action skellat to prepare blog article discussing updating & upgrading for users and why it is okay to do so
14:59 * meetingology skellat to prepare blog article discussing updating & upgrading for users and why it is okay to do so
15:00 <knome> #topic Team updates
15:00 <knome> Please use #info and #action
15:00 <knome> people, go ahead
15:00 <GridCube> :)
15:00 <knome> #info unfortunately, due to various obstacles, the docs SRU is not going to make it to .3, but we will upload it to -updates ASAP (and eventually, it'll be in .4)
15:01 <GridCube> #info Desktop of the week will have a list ready for later today of the first few images proposed for the project, we hope to have them posted an anounced for the first days of the next week
15:02 <knome> #action knome will prepare the website side later this week
15:02 * meetingology knome will prepare the website side later this week
15:02 <knome> #undo
15:02 <meetingology> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Action object at 0x322da50>
15:02 <knome> #action knome will prepare the website side for desktop of the week -gallery later this week
15:02 * meetingology knome will prepare the website side for desktop of the week -gallery later this week
15:02 <knome> anything else?
15:02 <GridCube> not from me in this topics
15:03 <knome> looking at a busier week next week, because we're one week to FF :)
15:03 <GridCube> indeed
15:03 <knome> #topic Announcements
15:03 <knome> none from me at this time. other team members?
15:03 <knome> oh, i do
15:04 <knome> #info knome has received money from the magazine. the project now about 250 euros to spend.
15:04 <knome> #undo
15:04 <meetingology> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x30dc710>
15:04 <knome> #info knome has received money from the linuxidentity magazine articles. the project has now about 250 euros to spend.
15:04 <knome> better :P
15:05 <smartboyhw> \o/
15:05 <knome> #topic New and emerging items
15:05 <knome> #subtopic Mir decisions
15:05 <GridCube> is this time for opinions?
15:05 <knome> soon
15:06 <knome> is there something people want to discuss?
15:06 <olli> knome, tvoss and I can give an update
15:06 <knome> what's the status updates for Mir, is there any new ground-breaking tests?
15:06 <pleia2> o/
15:06 <knome> olli, sure, that would be good :)
15:07 <olli> we were heading for a Call for testing for today around Multimonitor and composite bypass
15:07 <olli> sad reality is that we don't have the PPA ready for testing today
15:07 <olli> while we hope it's ready by tomorrow, we might even see further delays
15:07 <olli> I understand that this negatively impacts your decision making process
15:08 <olli> the ultimate plan is to land these features sufficiently tested by FF, i.e. 8/29
15:09 <olli> so we don't have a lot of time to pull the PPA together _and_ have enough headway until FF
15:09 <olli> there has been some FUD around the VT security bug
15:10 <olli> that is currently being worked on at https://code.launchpad.net/~robertcarr/mir/client-focus-notifications
15:10 <olli> and a mandatory target for 13.10
15:10 <olli> internal testing has shown improvements for the bypass feature
15:11 <olli> we are about to publish numbers via the long promised & outstanding dashboard
15:11 <olli> tvoss_, anything I missed (sorry, am in a real life meeting while I type;)
15:12 <tvoss_> olli, nope, all good :) for racarr's branch: it has taken quite a while to review it as it impacts such an important area and is security relevant
15:13 <knome> Riddell, o/
15:13 <knome> anybody has questions to olli, tvoss_?
15:15 <pleia2> thanks for the updates
15:15 <knome> yup
15:16 <smartboyhw> tvoss_, when is the ETA of the fix branch?
15:16 <smartboyhw> I mean, landing
15:16 <knome> i think we should vote about waiting or not waiting first
15:17 <knome> everybody agree or do we have better ideas?
15:17 <pleia2> maybe talk about it before vote? :)
15:17 <knome> people are so quiet...
15:17 <pleia2> hehe
15:17 <GridCube> we need opinions before voting
15:17 <lderan> sorry reading work emails :P
15:18 <tvoss_> smartboyhw, so eta for landing was yesterday :) but one reviewer found small issues
15:18 <GridCube> to take a reasonable desition
15:18 <rowboatnick> im spectating only
15:18 <smartboyhw> tvoss_, ah
15:18 <pleia2> so here's the thing, we're still seeing a fair number of failures, where the failover doesn't work and folks end up with blank screens, slow mouse pointers and screen corruption on some cards
15:18 <tvoss_> smartboyhw, small issues as in: syntactic mostly. racarr is online in ~1 hour and should tackle those, so there are no major blockers
15:18 <pleia2> even if the multi-monitor stuff landed today, I'm not happy
15:18 <knome> ...which is why i personally see a little point in postponing the decision
15:19 <GridCube> mmhm, i had better results on 0.0.8 than 0.0.9
15:19 <smartboyhw> 0.0.9 is most certainly better than 0.0.8. I agree with GridCube
15:19 <pleia2> postponing until today was already quite late for us given limitations of our team (we have a pretty small testing team in general, smaller development for fixing bugs)
15:19 <knome> smartboyhw, that's not what he said..
15:19 <pleia2> smartboyhw: he said the opposite
15:19 <GridCube> i had more lag on .9 than in .8
15:19 <smartboyhw> knome, pleia2 oh:(
15:20 * smartboyhw says the direct oppostie of GridCube then
15:20 <smartboyhw> :P
15:20 <GridCube> in any case there are too many result in the fail area
15:20 <olli> I don't know XUbuntu well, but is there an anticipated large difference between XUbuntu's DE and Ubuntu's DE
15:20 <cub> But would still be possible to add xmir as of today with apt-get install unity-system-compositor?
15:20 <knome> from my point of view, while there certainly has been improvements, xmir hasn't been proving to generally improve for everybody
15:20 <knome> olli, yes
15:20 <smartboyhw> cub, yes
15:20 <olli> i.e. shouldn't Ubuntu & XUbuntu see feature/bug parity
15:21 <knome> olli, partly, but there is a lot that is different
15:21 <cub> So the question is more "Should mir be the default already on installation?"?
15:21 <lderan> I haven't had a good experience of xmir yet
15:21 <tvoss_> knome, I think olli is referring to the underlying graphics stack
15:21 <knome> cub, ...no :)
15:21 <pleia2> cub: right, that's the question
15:21 <pleia2> knome: oh?
15:21 <smartboyhw> oh?
15:21 <GridCube> cub: the question would be if it will be shipped default
15:22 <knome> that ^
15:22 <pleia2> it will be in the repos regardless, is I think what cub is saying
15:22 <knome> then it should be "for" installation :)
15:22 <knome> tvoss_, olli: yes, sure
15:22 <cub> exactly. But the people who would like to test it could just add it themselves. Everybody happy.
15:22 <GridCube> we could change the ubiquity installer to ask if xmir or x.org?
15:23 <knome> but the reason why we are here that the Canonical decision to indlude mir or not is a different from the Xubuntu decision to include (X)Mir
15:23 <OvenWerks> Only if it includes an expailation
15:23 <knome> not only because the other uses Mir and the other XMir
15:23 <olli> regarding QA resources & test coverage... would it help if we (upstream) would contribute to your testing
15:23 <knome> GridCube, not happy with that either.
15:24 <smartboyhw> knome, I rather think an explanation on the website or the release notes might help.
15:24 <xnox> GridCube: that would mean shipping xmir & x.org packages on the cd, and removing the one not needed at the end of installation (similar is done with unneeded file-system utilities et al)
15:24 <knome> GridCube, if XMir is ready and stable enough to be chosen from the installer, then it should probably be default. if not, then it shouldn't be installable at all
15:24 <pleia2> olli: so we've put a lot of effort into testing xmir specifically, we really need to get back on track for more general Xubuntu testing
15:24 <GridCube> ofcourse it would help, but our users regard xubuntu as a pretty stable release, they use us on many places where they want to have a simple-stable system, not providing that would scare many of our users
15:25 <GridCube> knome: good point
15:25 <knome> (installable from the CD)
15:25 <pleia2> we could make sure a wiki page is maintained for folks who do want to enable it (I don't love installer option either)
15:25 <GridCube> At this moment, just at this moment, xmir its not stable enough for xubuntu, that is my opinion
15:25 <smartboyhw> pleia2, you can put it in release notes
15:25 <GridCube> its pretty good though
15:25 <smartboyhw> Or website
15:27 <knome> so...
15:27 <pleia2> vote time
15:27 <knome> do people think we should bother to vote about waiting or not waiting
15:27 * smartboyhw doesn't
15:27 * olli does
15:27 <GridCube> vote
15:27 <knome> i think we should do that.
15:27 <smartboyhw> It's one week BEFORE ff now
15:27 <olli> sorry, that was selfish ;)
15:27 * tvoss_ does, too :)
15:27 <pleia2> olli: hehe :)
15:28 <knome> olli, np, that's expected ;)
15:28 <knome> #vote Should we wait for improvements landing to XMir later (but before the FF)? (+1 for wait, -1 for not wait)
15:28 <meetingology> Please vote on: Should we wait for improvements landing to XMir later (but before the FF)? (+1 for wait, -1 for not wait)
15:28 <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
15:28 <knome> #voters bluesabre elfy GridCube jjfrv8 knome micahg mr_pouit ochosi pleia2 skellat Unit193
15:28 <meetingology> Current voters: GridCube Unit193 bluesabre elfy jjfrv8 knome micahg mr_pouit ochosi pleia2 skellat
15:28 <knome> -0
15:28 <knome> bah, no -0?
15:28 <knome> +0
15:28 <meetingology> +0 received from knome
15:28 <pleia2> -1
15:28 <meetingology> -1 received from pleia2
15:28 <GridCube> -1
15:28 <meetingology> -1 received from GridCube
15:28 <jjfrv8> -1
15:28 <meetingology> -1 received from jjfrv8
15:29 <smartboyhw> Well...
15:29 <knome> there was one -1 from elfy and one -1 from Unit193.
15:29 <knome> (covering this questions as well)
15:29 <smartboyhw> -6...
15:29 <knome> people who want to check that the votes are valid can check the logs from this channel earlier today.
15:30 <knome> let's wait for a few more minutes.
15:31 <ochosi> -1
15:31 <meetingology> -1 received from ochosi
15:31 * smartboyhw thinks -7 is a majority already...
15:31 <knome> smartboyhw, please.
15:31 <knome> #endvote
15:31 <meetingology> Voting ended on: Should we wait for improvements landing to XMir later (but before the FF)? (+1 for wait, -1 for not wait)
15:31 <meetingology> Votes for:0 Votes against:4 Abstentions:1
15:31 <meetingology> Motion denied
15:31 <knome> #vote Include (+1) or not include (-1) Mir in Xubuntu 13.10?
15:31 <meetingology> Please vote on: Include (+1) or not include (-1) Mir in Xubuntu 13.10?
15:31 <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
15:32 <knome> #voters bluesabre elfy GridCube jjfrv8 knome micahg mr_pouit ochosi pleia2 skellat Unit193
15:32 <meetingology> Current voters: GridCube Unit193 bluesabre elfy jjfrv8 knome micahg mr_pouit ochosi pleia2 skellat
15:32 <pleia2> -1
15:32 <meetingology> -1 received from pleia2
15:32 <knome> -1
15:32 <meetingology> -1 received from knome
15:32 <GridCube> -1
15:32 <meetingology> -1 received from GridCube
15:32 <ochosi> -1
15:32 <meetingology> -1 received from ochosi
15:32 <jjfrv8> -1
15:32 <meetingology> -1 received from jjfrv8
15:33 <knome> there was one -1 from elfy and one -1 from Unit193 to this as well.
15:33 <knome> again, you can check the logs
15:33 <knome> #endvote
15:33 <meetingology> Voting ended on: Include (+1) or not include (-1) Mir in Xubuntu 13.10?
15:33 <meetingology> Votes for:0 Votes against:5 Abstentions:0
15:33 <meetingology> Motion denied
15:33 <knome> tvoss_, olli: thanks
15:34 <knome> efforts are appreciated :)
15:34 <GridCube> its not ready just yet
15:34 <olli> so, while this is not the resolution we were hoping for (but we understand & appreciate your efforts) I really wanted to say thanks to the team for giving it a fair chance
15:34 <pleia2> indeed! it's been fun working with the Mir team, and helping folks get the hands in testing at Ubuntu Hours and such
15:34 <olli> rather than making uneducated decisions, this is worth a lot to us
15:34 <ochosi> i guess ppl will continue testing
15:34 <lderan> hope mir goes well for ubuntu :)
15:34 <knome> tvoss_, olli: i'm sure people can test mir with xubuntu in the following days as well, to see if things have been improving and bugs fixed :)
15:34 <GridCube> olli: :) and thank you for your presence it was greatly appreciated
15:35 <tvoss_> yeah, and thanks or all your testing efforts :)
15:35 <olli> I hope that by 14.04 the vote will be in the different direction ;)
15:35 <knome> tvoss_, olli: if you don't mind, we won't mind you being on the channel available for possible questions and discussion in the future
15:35 <ochosi> +1
15:35 <olli> knome, I will try to idle around
15:35 <tvoss_> knome, I will be around
15:35 <olli> but you guys know, that #ubuntu-mir is just around the /j corner ;)
15:36 <knome> tvoss_, olli: and finally, thanks again for working with us and really taking us into account!
15:36 <knome> anybody else with closing thoughts? :)
15:37 <GridCube> I think that what we all think its that is great to have the developers here, trying to help us to make the best desition
15:37 <knome> definitely
15:37 <GridCube> and that we hope that if things keep this way in the future we can rethink our position for future releases
15:38 <knome> #subtopic Proposal for more structured handling of Xubuntu bugs
15:38 <knome> skellat is not around, so passing
15:39 <knome> #subtopic Inclusion of Xfce 4.11 components in Xubuntu 13.10?
15:40 <knome> since developers aren't around, we can't make final decisions... however,
15:40 <knome> ochosi, would you like to list components that we should consider, since you have been overlooking the xfce development lately?
15:41 <ochosi> well the most important part of xfce4.11 in my personal opinion is the improved multi-monitor support
15:41 <ochosi> that is part of xfce4-settings
15:41 <ochosi> bluesabre, mr_pouit and me were working on that
15:41 <ochosi> xfdesktop also bears quite some improvements
15:42 <knome> i assume that would bring the much discussed display-dialog in as well
15:42 <ochosi> yes, xfce4-settings == display dialog (amongst others)
15:42 <ochosi> and i think some of the keyboard-shortcut issues (primary vs. ctrl) were solved recently
15:42 <ochosi> for the display dialog we should at least (if we don't include it by default) point ppl to the 4.12 dev ppa
15:42 <knome> what's in with xfdesktop more specifically?
15:43 <ochosi> a revamped settings-dialog, nicer workspaces support
15:43 <knome> #info xfce4-settings to bring in improved multi-monitor support along with a nice display dialog
15:43 <ochosi> the settings-dialog doesn't just show a fixed list, but the content of a folder
15:44 <ochosi> i've also been involved in that a bit
15:44 <knome> #info xfdekstop to bring improvements in settings dialog and better workspace support
15:44 <ochosi> you can also set different wallpapers per workspace
15:44 <ochosi> which is a feature many wanted for a long time
15:45 <knome> what about the panel indicators patch?
15:45 <knome> i know that's not exactly 4.11, but is something that relates to that
15:45 <ochosi> i've been sitting behind a really slow mobile internet connection, so i wasn't able to put the pieces together unfortunately
15:46 <knome> okay, but would you think that would be something we wanted to consider?
15:46 <knome> "that" being a patch that allowed running gtk3 indicators in a gtk2 panel
15:46 <ochosi> well there are two options:
15:46 <knome> which would mean we wouldn't need to maintain the gtk2 indicators, and we'd get back some lost features
15:47 <ochosi> 1) use patched gtk2 panel with gtk3 indicators
15:47 <ochosi> 2) use gtk3 panel with gtk2 xfce plugins and gtk3 indicators
15:47 <ochosi> tbh i've only tested the latter
15:47 <ochosi> that was stable though, i even have theming for it in a separate branch of greybird
15:48 <ochosi> i've been trying to get a hold of andrzejr, the author of the patches and maintainer of the indicator-plugin for a few days now
15:48 <knome> do you think you would have some time and a decent enough connection to work on that before the FF?
15:48 <knome> #info Several options to enable GTK3 indicators for the panel
15:49 <ochosi> i'll have a bad connection until the end of august, then i'll be moving to italy, so possibly no regular connection at all for the first weeks
15:49 <ochosi> at least not in a way that i can promise
15:49 <knome> okay
15:49 <knome> let's postpone that for 14.04 then
15:49 <ochosi> yeah, if no-one else can test it
15:50 <ochosi> i mean it's not extremely hard to do, i can possibly write up some instructions
15:50 <knome> i can test, and we can organize broader testing, but things would need to work first :)
15:50 <knome> sure, so let's see if we can do that
15:50 <ochosi> ok
15:50 <knome> #action knome to be in touch with developers in cherry-picking xfce4-settings and xfdesktop from 4.11 to 13.10
15:50 * meetingology knome to be in touch with developers in cherry-picking xfce4-settings and xfdesktop from 4.11 to 13.10
15:51 <knome> #action ochosi to write instructions on testing panel with gtk3 indicators enabled
15:51 * meetingology ochosi to write instructions on testing panel with gtk3 indicators enabled
15:51 <knome> #subtopic Virtual Ubuntu Developer Summit August 2013 Participation?
15:52 <knome> there was some discussion about this, and we'll probably schedule two off-vUDS-schedule sessions
15:52 <knome> #action knome to send information about vUDS participation/sessions to ML later this week
15:52 * meetingology knome to send information about vUDS participation/sessions to ML later this week
15:52 <knome> #subtopic Status Report on Strategy Document revisions
15:52 <knome> #info TODO
15:53 <knome> #action knome will send drafts of changes to the ML later this month
15:53 * meetingology knome will send drafts of changes to the ML later this month
15:53 <knome> #subtopic Schedule next meeting
15:53 <knome> do we want a meeting next week (FF day)?
15:53 <skellat> Meh
15:54 <pleia2> what a cheerful response
15:54 <skellat> pleia2: Not feeling the most well
15:54 <knome> it's also one week before B1
15:54 <knome> and the B1 freeze day.
15:54 <pleia2> +1 to meeting next week
15:54 <knome> okay
15:54 <skellat> Put it on the 28th?
15:54 <pleia2> (even if I hate waking up at 8AM :))
15:54 <knome> pleia2, you can do wed?
15:54 <lderan> poor pleia2 :P
15:55 <skellat> That'll have us the day before Feature Freeze
15:55 <knome> skellat, which is useless if things are still "TODO" :)
15:55 <pleia2> yeah whatever :)
15:55 <knome> but i do think it's better than FF day.
15:55 <knome> #info Next meeting: 28 Aug at 15UTC
15:55 <knome> #endmeeting