22:02:59 <charlie-tca> #startmeeting Xubuntu
22:02:59 <meetingology> Meeting started Sun Oct 23 22:02:59 2011 UTC.  The chair is charlie-tca. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
22:02:59 <meetingology> 
22:02:59 <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
22:03:28 <charlie-tca> The agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
22:03:45 <charlie-tca> Reminder:   please use ".." on separate line when you've finished typing.   If someone wants to comment during the updates, please "o/", so we know to wait.
22:04:06 <GridCube> do we o/ for the bot to count us?
22:04:10 <charlie-tca> #topic OLD BUSINESS
22:04:23 <pleia2> I can't stay long (have some furniture to pick up) :\
22:04:23 <charlie-tca> no, we will all be counted when voting
22:04:28 <GridCube> ok
22:04:41 <knome> pleia2, meh you
22:04:53 <charlie-tca> All old business is carried forward for the next Project Lead to bring forward.
22:05:08 <charlie-tca> #topic === Team updates ===
22:05:25 <charlie-tca> #subtopic ==== Packaging & Development ====
22:05:50 <charlie-tca> mr_pouit: I have seen a bug report on 12.04 already, but prefer to ignore it until we at least all the merges and syncs done
22:06:06 <charlie-tca> mr_pouit: your floor, do you have any updates this early?
22:06:08 <knome> (and toolkit uploaded?)
22:06:33 <mr_pouit> micahg started to do some syncs (I haven't even looked at precise yet ;-)
22:06:36 <charlie-tca> toolchain uploaded already
22:06:40 <knome> oh!
22:06:44 <charlie-tca> Okay, mr_pouit
22:06:52 <micahg> o/
22:07:00 <knome> (i thought it was after uds. sorry for distrupting)
22:07:02 <mr_pouit> there have been many bugs filed against oneiric recently too
22:07:16 <charlie-tca> yes, the increase in users is showing up rapidly
22:07:28 <charlie-tca> micahg: ?
22:07:49 <micahg> I just wanted to say that an SRU for blueman is planned by me, just not sure if it'll happen before UDS
22:07:58 <charlie-tca> Great!
22:08:02 <knome> o/
22:08:06 <charlie-tca> That will take out a couple of bugs
22:08:08 <mr_pouit> Bug #878682, Bug #877811 and Bug #878069 might also be SRU'able
22:08:09 <charlie-tca> knome: ?
22:08:11 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 878682 in xubuntu-meta (Ubuntu) "Fresh install of Xubuntu 11.10 misses gvfs-backends package" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/878682
22:08:12 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 877811 in xfce4-panel (Ubuntu) "DirectoryMenu plugin "Open in Terminal" doesn't work" [Low,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/877811
22:08:13 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 878069 in exo (Ubuntu Oneiric) "Mailto helpers broken on !i386 in 0.6.2-2" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/878069
22:08:40 <knome> can we get a newer version of ristretto in oneiric too? it crashes if you are using thumbnailbar, but i heard that's fixed in 0.1.0
22:08:53 <micahg> mr_pouit: yeah, I can look at those (I know the last one will have to wait until exo makes it into testing/unstable)
22:08:53 <knome> (as SRU) + ..
22:09:14 <mr_pouit> micahg: it's in unstable now ;-)
22:09:23 * GridCube was going to propose we ditch ristretto for gpicviewer
22:09:24 <charlie-tca> mr_pouit: ristretto should be SRU able, isn't it?
22:09:28 <micahg> mr_pouit: oops, meant testing/precise :)
22:09:48 * beardygnome supports GridCube
22:09:52 <micahg> charlie-tca: we don't usually SRU major version updates (I think blueman might be an exception since it's all bug fix)
22:09:55 <ochosi> GridCube: you should try what's in git now, it really has evolved a lot
22:10:05 <mr_pouit> charlie-tca: knome: I haven't looked at the diff between 0.0.93 and 0.1.x, but I guess it's too big
22:10:09 <GridCube> ochosi, :) will try
22:10:12 <knome> GridCube, ristretto's got a lot of enhancements lately, so i'd say let's check that first too, and compare that to gpicviewer
22:10:15 <charlie-tca> blueman we got permission for before release
22:10:15 <knome> mr_pouit, :(
22:10:18 <micahg> ristretto 0.1.0 was a total rewrite IIRC
22:10:23 <knome> mostly, yes
22:10:34 <knome> can we at least investigate that?
22:10:45 <micahg> knome: we can backport it
22:10:45 <charlie-tca> Well, if ristretto can not be done, we will at least get the new version in Precise
22:10:54 <micahg> charlie-tca: already there ;)
22:11:06 <charlie-tca> Okay
22:11:11 <micahg> 0.2.0 will be coming after UDS
22:11:16 <charlie-tca> Anything else for development?
22:11:17 <mr_pouit> if psybsd didn't rewrite ristretto between 0.0.93 and 0.1.0, I can try to make a patch to fix issues
22:11:33 <knome> so if possible, let's try to get ristretto 0.1.0 in for oneiric as SRU or backport.
22:11:41 <mr_pouit> (but I think he rewrote many things ;-)
22:11:56 <micahg> if there's a crash and there's a sensible patch, we can SRU that
22:12:00 <charlie-tca> We will at least look at it
22:12:11 <knome> thanks. or micahg or mr_pouit can PPA it
22:12:12 <knome> .
22:12:39 <charlie-tca> anything else?
22:12:44 <micahg> knome: let's use backports, if you want to file the bug, I can get a test build up
22:12:55 <knome> micahg, i can do that. :)
22:12:56 <micahg> knome: against oneiric-backports
22:13:03 <knome> thanks
22:13:11 <GridCube> o/
22:13:14 <charlie-tca> #subtopic ==== Bug Triage & Testing ====
22:13:18 <charlie-tca> GridCube: ?
22:13:36 <GridCube> can i ask something, that bothering me, why do you changed exaile for gmusicbrowser?
22:13:43 <GridCube> can't we go back to it?
22:14:00 <micahg> exaile uses hal so no :P
22:14:02 <knome> can we cover that on "other business" ?
22:14:02 <charlie-tca> I have wondered the same thing. It seems like we lost the ability to play cd's in that switch
22:14:10 <GridCube> ok
22:14:16 <knome> it isn't really team update
22:14:16 <GridCube> ..
22:14:19 <knome> ..
22:14:22 <charlie-tca> correct
22:14:50 <micahg> well, there's a branch for de-hal-ing it
22:15:01 <micahg> oh, wait, we have parole, don't we?
22:15:03 <knome> micahg! behave! :P ..
22:15:05 <charlie-tca> as to bugs and testing, we will begin testing Precise the first week of December. Alph1 is due the 1st, and daily testing up to then is spotty
22:15:21 <GridCube> :D my new testing interface is ready :D
22:15:29 <charlie-tca> #subtopic ==== Website & Marketing ====
22:15:38 <charlie-tca> Where are we on the website transition?
22:15:44 <knome> we're still pending on IS to get the latest plugin version in
22:15:46 * beardygnome thinks it looks good
22:16:13 <knome> after that, we need one more plugin/theme update, after that it is all about content (which is already copied over by pleia2)
22:16:32 <knome> so we're maybe about 1-3 weeks from going live (realistic estimation)
22:16:37 <knome> ..
22:16:38 <pleia2> I did a full audit of the old site yesterday and shared notes for what we need to review
22:16:39 <charlie-tca> Great! That would be fantastic
22:16:46 <pleia2> all the news is pulled over, 26 articles!
22:16:53 <pleia2> ..
22:17:00 <knome> i look forward to writing as much articles per release!
22:17:00 <knome> ..
22:17:07 <pleia2> knome: +1
22:17:13 <charlie-tca> I haven't seen any reviews yet from our bloggers
22:17:52 <beardygnome> charlie-tca: guess you missed http://beardygnome.co.uk/2011/10/22/oneiric-ocelot-arrives/ then
22:17:56 <charlie-tca> Artwork and Documentation should be discussed later, I think, as in next meeting
22:17:58 <knome> i can write one, but that wouldn't be so positive, since my upgrade miserably failed :(
22:17:59 <beardygnome> :-)
22:18:08 <charlie-tca> beardygnome: I did
22:18:15 <knome> charlie-tca, agreed. nothing happening in those areas now
22:18:29 <charlie-tca> I was hoping to get that into the website news, too, which puts it in planet
22:18:31 <ochosi> knome: hey! i'm still fixing greybird-gtk3 bugs ;)
22:18:33 <beardygnome> i can't say i've publicised it...
22:18:38 <knome> ochosi, hehe.. :)
22:19:05 <charlie-tca> #topic === Announcements ===
22:19:35 <charlie-tca> Ubuntu is going to move to a 5 year release schedule for LTS releases.
22:19:38 <charlie-tca> We will need to seriously consider Xubuntu's ability to support this plan.
22:19:40 <charlie-tca> Staying with Ubuntu release cycles will mean supporting 12.04 for 5 years.
22:19:50 <charlie-tca> I am not willing to take this up before the election.
22:20:17 <charlie-tca> #topic === Xubuntu Governance ===
22:20:32 <charlie-tca> * The governancy part of the current Strategy Document can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/StrategyDocument#Xubuntu_Governance_.26_Team_Structure
22:20:39 <charlie-tca> drumroll please...
22:20:39 <beardygnome> charlie-tca: they already do 5 year support, don't they?
22:20:47 <charlie-tca> Only for servers
22:20:55 <knome> (beardygnome, 3 for desktop)
22:21:00 <charlie-tca> They are going to 5 year support for desktops
22:21:14 <beardygnome> oh, sorry, hadn't heard that
22:21:23 <charlie-tca> #subtopic Nominations for Xubuntu Project Lead
22:21:26 <beardygnome> ..
22:21:39 <charlie-tca> We have two nominees for this election today
22:21:49 <charlie-tca> Myself, and the esteemed knome
22:22:08 * knome bows
22:22:11 <charlie-tca> I would like knome to introduce himself and will give a few minutes to him.
22:22:19 <charlie-tca> knome: go ahead, sikr
22:22:23 <charlie-tca> knome: go ahead, sir
22:22:27 <knome> hello everybody!
22:22:40 <knome> i'm pasi lallinaho, a geek and a foss enthusiast from finland
22:23:04 <knome> i've been working with ubuntu since 2008, also as the xubuntu marketing lead for over a year
22:23:28 <knome> in 2009, i founded the shimmer project, via which i've continuously have contributed to xubuntu
22:23:57 <knome> you can read more at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PasiLallinaho/XPL - a shortlist of my bigger contributions to ubuntu is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PasiLallinaho/
22:24:01 <knome> thanks ..
22:24:40 <charlie-tca> Lest any one decide to vote based on my and knome's interactions. Be aware, we do not see eye to eye often, but I have the greatest respect for knome.
22:25:20 <charlie-tca> I think enough of him to make him an IRC op in all of our channels, which gives him the right to throw even myself out.
22:25:34 <knome> to be exact, i've never seen charlie-tca in real life, but i do respect him very much too - he is doing an absolute fantastic job on QA and bugs!
22:25:47 <pleia2> thanks guys :)
22:25:51 * micahg can vouch for charlie-tca being a real person :)
22:26:00 <charlie-tca> lol
22:26:15 <knome> me too, i've heard he is real from what i've heard from people i've seen rl too
22:26:23 <charlie-tca> If anyone neeeds more time to read knome's wiki pages, please say so
22:26:25 <knome> or maybe this is the next truman story??
22:26:42 <charlie-tca> I was real last time I looked in the mirror
22:27:07 <knome> (one can make even a bot say that!!)
22:27:41 <micahg> ubottu: are you real?
22:27:41 <ubottu> micahg: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
22:27:59 <knome> just as a sidenote, i've never had problems with charlie-tca in the irc channels so i haven't had to think if i should throw him out :)
22:28:32 <charlie-tca> I am Charlie Kravetz. My wiki page is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CharlieKravetz/XubuntuProjectLeadNomination
22:29:02 <charlie-tca> I want to thank knome for making this a true election this time. It is always good to have a choice.
22:29:16 <GridCube> :)
22:29:33 <knome> to be truthful, the ubuntu studio leader ScottL told he wanted to add a testimony for charlie too, but i think he forgot.
22:30:05 <charlie-tca> We will hold two votes, you can vote +1 to vote for the person. Only those members of https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-users/ are allowed to vote.
22:30:15 <charlie-tca> If you don't know if you are a member of the team, please ask.
22:30:27 <GridCube> I think i am
22:30:31 <GridCube> how to know?
22:30:34 <knome> GridCube, lp id?
22:30:53 <GridCube> gridcube
22:30:56 <madnick> GridCube: you are
22:30:58 <knome> GridCube, you are a member.
22:31:00 <GridCube> :D
22:31:16 <dejot> are new group members OK to vote as well?
22:31:19 <knome> GridCube, of xubuntu-users, and only xubuntu-users
22:31:27 <charlie-tca> GridCube: you are
22:31:38 <GridCube> :)
22:31:39 <GridCube> ok
22:31:40 <charlie-tca> dejot: yes, as long as you are a member
22:31:44 <dejot> k, thx
22:32:02 <knome> yes, should be no difference. you might have wanted to join the team for voting too :)
22:32:17 <ochosi> yeah, to be honest i did that..
22:32:19 <charlie-tca> #vote We are voting for knome first
22:32:19 <meetingology> Please vote on: We are voting for knome first
22:32:19 <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
22:32:36 <charlie-tca> Please vote now
22:32:40 <ochosi> +1
22:32:40 <meetingology> +1 received from ochosi
22:32:41 <charlie-tca> +0
22:32:41 <meetingology> +0 received from charlie-tca
22:32:42 <knome> can i vote for myself? :)
22:32:45 <dejot> +1
22:32:45 <meetingology> +1 received from dejot
22:32:47 <pleia2> +1
22:32:47 <meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
22:32:47 <knome> +0
22:32:47 <meetingology> +0 received from knome
22:32:47 <charlie-tca> yes
22:32:48 <nimbus> +1
22:32:48 <meetingology> +1 received from nimbus
22:32:49 <edii> +1
22:32:49 <meetingology> +1 received from edii
22:32:50 <GridCube> +0
22:32:50 <meetingology> +0 received from GridCube
22:32:51 <madnick> +1
22:32:51 <meetingology> +1 received from madnick
22:32:51 <beardygnome> =1
22:32:55 <beardygnome> +1
22:32:55 <meetingology> +1 received from beardygnome
22:33:04 <JPohlmann> +1
22:33:04 <meetingology> +1 received from JPohlmann
22:33:18 <knome> oooh :o
22:33:21 <mr_pouit> +1
22:33:21 <meetingology> +1 received from mr_pouit
22:33:24 <charlie-tca> knome: yes, you may vote for yourself. You can also change your vote by voting again
22:33:41 <micahg> do we vote only once?
22:33:43 <beardygnome> looks like i'm not a member of xubuntu-users though...
22:33:49 <knome> charlie-tca, i'll disqualify myself. :)
22:33:56 <charlie-tca> You can vote twice, once for each of us
22:34:14 <beardygnome> even though i'm in xubuntu-team...
22:34:19 <micahg> +0
22:34:19 <meetingology> +0 received from micahg
22:34:26 <knome> since xubuntu-users is an open group, i'd say anyone active enough in the community that both contestants know him, can vote. charlie-tca, agreed?
22:34:50 <GridCube> beardygnome, it autoaccepts you
22:34:51 <charlie-tca> yeah, If you are on Xubuntu-team, you are qualified to vote
22:34:58 <knome> :)
22:35:27 <mr_pouit> beardygnome: if you're in ~xubuntu-team, you're indirectly in ~xubuntu-users
22:35:42 <mr_pouit> (unless launchpad is lying to me, or I can't read straight anymore)
22:35:42 <charlie-tca> beardygnome: xubuntu-team is always included in xubuntu-users. So is xubuntu-devel
22:35:57 <beardygnome> i might be registered under my real name, not my nick
22:35:59 <beardygnome> just checking
22:36:01 <knome> heh
22:36:08 <knome> everybody going to vote has voted?
22:36:16 <charlie-tca> Does anyone else wish to vote?
22:36:30 <charlie-tca> we give it one minute
22:36:44 <knome> dum-di-dum...
22:37:08 * knome renders half-time music
22:37:09 <GridCube> tom bombadil songs?
22:37:16 <ochosi> :)
22:37:19 <charlie-tca> #endvote
22:37:19 <meetingology> Voting ended on: We are voting for knome first
22:37:19 <meetingology> Votes for:9 Votes against:0 Abstentions:4
22:37:19 <meetingology> Motion carried
22:37:20 <knome> you name it, i hum it
22:37:57 <charlie-tca> Okay, Now we will vote on charlie-tca. Please vote if you are a member of the xubuntu-users team.
22:38:09 <charlie-tca> #vote we now vote for charlie-tca
22:38:09 <meetingology> Please vote on: we now vote for charlie-tca
22:38:09 <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
22:38:13 <GridCube> :D
22:38:14 <GridCube> +1
22:38:14 <meetingology> +1 received from GridCube
22:38:19 <charlie-tca> +0
22:38:19 <meetingology> +0 received from charlie-tca
22:38:20 <micahg> +1
22:38:20 <meetingology> +1 received from micahg
22:38:24 <GridCube> i nominated you so :P
22:38:31 <dejot> +0
22:38:31 <meetingology> +0 received from dejot
22:38:36 <beardygnome> +0
22:38:36 <meetingology> +0 received from beardygnome
22:38:39 <ochosi> +0
22:38:39 <meetingology> +0 received from ochosi
22:38:47 <pleia2> +0
22:38:47 <meetingology> +0 received from pleia2
22:38:50 <knome> +0.5
22:38:50 <meetingology> +0.5 received from knome
22:38:51 <madnick> 0
22:38:51 <meetingology> 0 received from madnick
22:39:00 <JPohlmann> +0
22:39:00 <meetingology> +0 received from JPohlmann
22:39:03 <mr_pouit> uh, does +0.5 work?
22:39:06 <GridCube> it will count it XD
22:39:13 <knome> mr_pouit, if it does, i'll file a bug.
22:39:25 <dejot> and render the election invalid!
22:39:30 <knome> haha
22:39:34 <GridCube> jaja
22:39:38 <mr_pouit> +0 (actually +0.5, but then knome would file 2 bugs)
22:39:38 <meetingology> +0 (actually +0.5, but then knome would file 2 bugs) received from mr_pouit
22:39:44 <mr_pouit> >.<
22:39:46 <mr_pouit> +0
22:39:46 <meetingology> +0 received from mr_pouit
22:39:47 <charlie-tca> no it won't, since it may be for the boards to show a positive vote
22:39:51 <knome> heh, nicely done...
22:40:11 <knome> let's see what the bot says in a sec
22:40:20 <charlie-tca> Okay, let's give it one more minute
22:40:22 <nimbus> +0
22:40:22 <meetingology> +0 received from nimbus
22:40:38 * knome hums some half-time music again
22:41:22 <charlie-tca> Since this is the same bot used in #ubuntu-meeting, it may well allow half votes as a vote of confidence
22:41:29 <charlie-tca> #endvote
22:41:29 <meetingology> Voting ended on: we now vote for charlie-tca
22:41:29 <meetingology> Votes for:2 Votes against:0 Abstentions:10
22:41:29 <meetingology> Motion carried
22:41:37 <charlie-tca> Super.
22:41:44 <knome> yeah, it should count +0* as +0 :)
22:41:44 <charlie-tca> Congratulations, knome
22:41:48 <knome> thanks everybody!
22:41:56 <pleia2> charlie-tca: thank you for your work, you are great :)
22:42:04 <GridCube> :D
22:42:15 <charlie-tca> I will thank everyone here for participating in this meeting and very important election.
22:42:18 <knome> yes, thanks
22:42:24 <GridCube> ALL SALUTE THE NEW PROJECT LEADER!
22:42:26 <GridCube> :D
22:42:32 <knome> charlie-tca, if you will, i'll be glad to see you as the QA+bugs leader in the future too :)
22:42:39 <GridCube> congratulations mister knome :D
22:42:45 <knome> thank you sir
22:42:47 <charlie-tca> I know you will support the new Project Leader, and insure this great distribution continues to grow
22:43:14 <GridCube> :D charlie-tca for all i can tell you did a great job
22:43:16 <beardygnome> charlie-tca: thank you for all your hard work, my vote for  knome was not a vote against you, if that makes sense?
22:43:29 <micahg> beardygnome: you could've voted for both :)
22:43:30 <ochosi> GridCube: now you have to call him "the esteemed knome" ;)
22:43:34 <charlie-tca> #chair knome
22:43:34 <meetingology> Current chairs: charlie-tca knome
22:43:57 <charlie-tca> I know. I fully appreciate the value of change in leadership
22:44:01 <GridCube> the greatly steemed mister knome the great
22:44:01 <knome> charlie-tca, if you want, i can chair the rest of the meeting, or you can do it as well
22:44:02 <GridCube> :P
22:44:04 <mr_pouit> two chairs, soon we'll have a bench \o/
22:44:08 * mr_pouit hides
22:44:10 <ochosi> haha
22:44:10 <knome> the steamed knome
22:44:14 <beardygnome> micahg: i know, but i didn't want to risk tying the votes
22:44:24 <charlie-tca> That's why I gave you the chair
22:44:26 <micahg> beardygnome: as you can see, that wasn't a problem :)
22:44:27 * knome is big enough to be a couch
22:44:29 <charlie-tca> knome: go ahead
22:44:43 <knome> let me find the right tab in FF :)
22:44:53 <knome> so, let's move on to the next subject
22:45:12 <charlie-tca> besides, I am tired of saying I will wait for the new project leader
22:45:16 <knome> #topic === Announcements (again) ===
22:45:19 <GridCube> XD
22:45:32 <knome> Ubuntu goes 5-year schedule for LTS
22:45:39 <ochosi> charlie-tca: thanks for all your work charlie! i really hope you'll continue with QA and accessibility!
22:45:40 <knome> JPohlmann, ping
22:45:56 <charlie-tca> Yes, I plan to be around, but not until after UDS
22:46:31 <charlie-tca> knome: according to the message on the 5 year plan, it will be discussed at UDS, also
22:46:38 <micahg> knome: shouldn't that be a discussion or was that summary judgment?
22:46:40 <JPohlmann> The LTS schedule is something I thought it might be worth throwing in my opinion
22:46:51 <knome> JPohlmann had something to say so i'll let him :)
22:46:59 <micahg> knome: nevermind...
22:47:15 <JPohlmann> Maintaining an Xfce release as old as five years would be painful
22:47:47 <JPohlmann> As upstream developers we only really maintain the latest stable release in parallel to developing the next one
22:47:54 <JPohlmann> The cycle is about two years
22:48:32 <JPohlmann> So five years means you'd have to come up with fixes on your own, upstream doesn't have the manpower to maintain 3 versions in parallel
22:48:49 <JPohlmann> ..
22:48:58 <knome> yes, 5 years is a long time
22:49:02 <beardygnome> o/
22:49:06 <knome> beardygnome, go ahead
22:49:27 <beardygnome> we can chose not to do 5 year support, right?
22:49:43 <knome> i don't know. does somebody know that yet?
22:50:07 <knome> in my opinion, xubuntu doesn't necessarily need LTS's
22:50:10 <micahg> main will be supported for 5 yrs regardless, this is specific to whether or not we, as Xubuntu, want to extend that to our packages as well
22:50:22 <ochosi> o/
22:50:22 <knome> we have been able to produce a stable system every release
22:50:32 <knome> ochosi, go ahead
22:50:38 <charlie-tca> o/
22:50:50 <knome> charlie-tca, feel free to go after ochosi's finished :)
22:50:51 <JPohlmann> knome: Well, it is being used in large PC pools at universities, so having an LTS might be useful
22:50:55 * micahg needs to learn to raise his hand...
22:51:12 <ochosi> as jannis said, xfce has a different length of cycles. furthermore: afaik ubuntu wants to transition to gtk3 with 12.04 which is rather bad for us
22:51:26 <micahg> o/
22:51:28 <ochosi> so all in all i think the next lts is not really ideal for xubuntu
22:51:34 <knome> JPohlmann, i understand, but since you can't upgrade from LTS to anything else than next normal release or the LTS 5 years ago, that kind of fails
22:51:39 <mr_pouit> well, I think we haven't even supported normal 3y LTS until now (I don't think I've even patched something in 10.04 -- Xfce 4.6 -- since its release)
22:51:59 <ochosi> ..
22:52:05 <micahg> knome: no, upgrades will still be every 2 years AFAICT for LTS -> LTS
22:52:08 <knome> (everybody just go free - otherwise this takes too long)
22:52:19 <charlie-tca> As a derivative of Ubuntu, we are not required to follow the Ubuntu release schedule.
22:52:22 <knome> micahg, if LTS is every 5 years, isn't LTS->LTS five years waiting?
22:52:38 <charlie-tca> A point to keep in mind is that Xubuntu is not officially designated "LTS"
22:52:42 <micahg> knome: no, just that there's 6yrs of support per release
22:52:46 <micahg> oops
22:52:48 <GridCube> o/
22:52:49 <micahg> 5 yrs, not 6
22:52:59 <knome> if we could work with xfce more closely, the ideal situation would be to release an LTS everytime a new xfce version is out+polished
22:53:05 <ochosi> GridCube: think you don't have to raise your "hand" anymore ;)
22:53:10 <GridCube> ok
22:53:11 <charlie-tca> We have supported LTS releases as a group, not as a requirement
22:53:27 <GridCube> for as far as i know there will be two concurrent lts
22:53:28 <knome> GridCube, yep, let's go free on this subject
22:53:42 <charlie-tca> However, moving outside the Ubuntu 18 month cycles does create other issues
22:53:45 <beardygnome> +1 for knome's idea
22:53:52 <micahg> knome: there's no upstream help for GNOME/KDE to maintain an LTS release, so I don't see why we'd need help from Xfce either
22:54:02 <knome> micahg, yes, but you can only upgrade to next normal version or LTS from LTS
22:54:09 <micahg> GridCube: there will be 3 now :)
22:54:22 <charlie-tca> Gnome and KDE officially support LTS releases, which is why they are always included in the .? releases
22:54:23 <GridCube> yes, but what i mean is
22:54:30 <charlie-tca> We are not included in them
22:54:31 <GridCube> there will be two updates to lts
22:54:32 <knome> micahg, we don't necessarily need "xfce help", but help isn't bad
22:54:32 <micahg> knome: right, so from 12.04 you can upgrade to 12.10 or 14.04
22:54:38 <knome> micahg, yes
22:54:41 <GridCube> lts>lts1>lts2
22:54:52 <GridCube> lts>(lts1,lts2)
22:54:56 <knome> micahg, that's why it's either you upgrade to normal release, or are stuck waiting 5 for the next lts
22:55:04 <knome> micahg, which is bad
22:55:10 <knome> my vision is:
22:55:15 <micahg> knome: no, it's still 2 yrs for the next LTS upgrade
22:55:26 <knome> oh, right
22:55:27 <knome> sorry
22:55:31 <knome> i mixed things up
22:55:37 <GridCube> yes that, so not 5 years from lts > lts
22:55:39 <micahg> so I think we're good WRT upstream Xfce
22:55:39 <charlie-tca> A point to keep in mind, Dapper (Xubuntu 6.06) would have been supported until this year on a 5 year LTS
22:55:54 <knome> i think we are good anyway
22:56:10 <GridCube> 5 yeas if you do lts > lts2 but 2 for lts > lts1
22:56:10 <ochosi> charlie-tca: yeah, imagining that makes the taste of a 5year lts a bit bitter
22:56:15 <micahg> I think we have the option to stay with 3yrs instead of 5 as well
22:56:15 <GridCube> thats how i undestand it
22:56:17 <beardygnome> we don't have a server release, do we?
22:56:20 <JPohlmann> Basically, if Xfce has released 4.6, 4.8 and is working towards 4.10, Xubuntu is entirely on its own with regards to 4.6. Upstream doesn't even check or work on fixes; no bugfix releases for the previous last stable release are made either. Maintaining that as an LTS would be tough, I guess.
22:56:54 <knome> can we just say we support the "LTS" as long as the xfce version in it supported?
22:56:58 <knome> people agree on that?
22:57:14 <charlie-tca> Yes, and we will have 4.6 for another 18 months after 12.04 releases
22:57:24 <GridCube> i do, but i don0t know if thats a fair thing to say to users
22:57:27 <knome> well, as long as the xfce version in it is the next-to-newest
22:57:30 <micahg> knome: well, no, that would be 2 yrs, and the LTS -> LTS upgrade isn't prompted until LTS+1.1
22:57:36 <charlie-tca> I would suggest not using "LTS" for any Xubuntu release
22:57:47 <mr_pouit> +1 with charlie-tca
22:57:50 <GridCube> +1
22:57:52 <JPohlmann> Yep, +1
22:57:57 <ochosi> +1
22:57:57 <beardygnome> _1
22:57:59 <knome> charlie-tca, i kind of agree. as i said, we've been able to deliver stable releases from release to release
22:57:59 <beardygnome> +1
22:58:00 <micahg> so, the choices are 18m (no LTS), 3yrs, 5yr
22:58:06 <knome> in that case
22:58:11 <GridCube> knome, :p do a vote
22:58:11 <charlie-tca> #agreed do not use "LTS" for any Xubuntu release
22:58:20 <micahg> wait
22:58:25 <knome> yeah, wait :)
22:58:29 <micahg> do we not intend to support LTS -> LTS upgrades?
22:58:39 <knome> that was my question too
22:58:44 <knome> and the other question
22:59:03 <charlie-tca> so, you plan to support an upgrade from 4.6 to 4.??? at 5 years?
22:59:04 <knome> can we set update-manager to inform about new "normal" releases instead of just LTS by default?
22:59:20 <beardygnome> how difficult is it to support lts -> lts upgrades?
22:59:23 <micahg> charlie-tca: no, 2 yr upgrades, 4.6 -> 4.10, 4.10 -> 5.2 (?)
22:59:37 <charlie-tca> supporting an upgrade every two years is NOT supporting LTS to LTS upgrades
22:59:42 <ochosi> micahg: i think 4.12 comes after 4.10
22:59:42 <GridCube> if you are no using lts it will inform you anyway doenst it? knome
22:59:45 <micahg> charlie-tca: yes, it is :)
22:59:51 <charlie-tca> It has to be upgraded the entire life time
23:00:03 <knome> GridCube, yes, but if you are
23:00:13 <GridCube> but we will be not
23:00:18 <micahg> charlie-tca: no, we can say the supported upgrade path for xubuntu is through the intermediate LTSs
23:00:31 <charlie-tca> knome: yes, that normal switch is simple to set
23:00:49 <knome> charlie-tca, great. then i'd say let's go for that. do you know if we also can hide the LTS thing completely?
23:01:08 <mr_pouit> again, to handle upgrade paths from 4.x to 4.x+4 (e.g. 4.6 to 4.10), we'll (probably) be alone
23:01:08 <knome> charlie-tca, eg. not support any upgrades over more than one release
23:01:15 <beardygnome> knome: i don't think that's a good idea
23:01:21 <charlie-tca> I don't know for sure, but if the user decides to change the config file, they become "on their own"
23:01:30 <micahg> knome: I think that will hurt us, not everyone is comfortable upgrading every 6 months
23:01:36 <ochosi> sorry people, it's getting a bit late for me and i have to work tomorrow morning. i'll join the discussion/s again in the next meeting
23:01:39 <knome> mmh.
23:01:47 <knome> ochosi, thanks for joining us anyway though
23:02:00 <knome> ochosi, i'm sure this discussion continues through to the next meeting as well
23:02:03 <beardygnome> knome: i think we need to take this to the ml
23:02:04 <ochosi> np, see you around (and i'll read the backlog)
23:02:08 <charlie-tca> mr_pouit: and that is what we are looking at for 10.04, already
23:02:14 <micahg> I think 3 yrs support isn't unreasonable and makes for a viable alternative to other OSs
23:02:19 <beardygnome> we are going around in circles here
23:02:24 <knome> mr_pouit, can you give some insight which is the easiest for you?
23:02:25 <beardygnome> +1
23:02:27 <charlie-tca> Normal upgrades are 18 month cycles
23:02:28 <beardygnome> to micahg
23:02:35 <mr_pouit> charlie-tca: if 12.04 only ships 4.8, that'll be fine ;-)
23:02:51 <charlie-tca> but the upgrade must always be by step to each release.
23:03:00 <micahg> charlie-tca: no, normal support is 18mo, upgrades are every 6 and if you upgrade every 18, you can to run 3 upgrades to be up to date
23:03:10 <micahg> s/can/have to/
23:03:30 <knome> can we give the floor to mr_pouit for a sec?
23:03:37 <micahg> mr_pouit: right, we still have that wildcard :)
23:03:45 <knome> i'd like to hear his thoughts on this, because he is the one doing the work, it seems
23:03:48 <knome> (and micahg)
23:05:07 <knome> mr_pouit, fell asleep?
23:05:08 <mr_pouit> I'm not that happy to support 3 (not to say 5) years old releases, but if people think we can do it, we could try
23:05:21 <knome> mr_pouit, what is your #1 suggestion
23:05:28 <micahg> mr_pouit: 3 is the end, most users would be on it only about 2.5 yrs
23:05:29 <mr_pouit> but right now, debian + xubuntu dev team = 3 people, just to remin that
23:05:37 <mr_pouit> *remind
23:06:01 <micahg> mr_pouit: what does Debian do about stable?
23:06:16 <micahg> keep in mind Debian's support cycle is ~3 yrs for their releases
23:06:23 <knome> (i'll be right back, need to run to the gentlemen's)
23:06:27 <mr_pouit> only high impact fixes/more or less nothing most of the time
23:06:37 <micahg> mr_pouit: I see no problem with us doing the same
23:06:51 <mr_pouit> for Xfce 4.4, users got 4.6 in -backports
23:07:07 <beardygnome> this might be a step too far, but could we switch our base?
23:07:10 <micahg> ooh, that's nice :), I'm not sure I'd want to do that in Ubuntu though
23:07:30 <mr_pouit> micahg: if we have longer support cycles than debian, we'll have fun delta with maintainer scripts & co, I'd like to avoid that ;-)
23:07:50 <mr_pouit> the current scheme is nice for that
23:08:07 <knome> is anybody going to UDS to discuss this?
23:08:07 <micahg> mr_pouit: right, so I'd like to keep us basically in sync with Debian which is basically 2 years between releases (like our LTS->LTS)
23:08:07 <JPohlmann> Time for me to hit the sack; bye people
23:08:15 <micahg> thanks JPohlmann
23:08:17 <mr_pouit> micahg: yes
23:08:18 <charlie-tca> yes, knome
23:08:19 <knome> night JPohlmann, and thanks for the valuable input
23:08:21 <charlie-tca> I will be there
23:08:27 <beardygnome> would a rolling release cycle be better or worse?
23:08:40 <charlie-tca> worse, if Ubuntu does not support it
23:09:07 <micahg> mr_pouit: that's why I figured that it wouldn't be much of a hit for us to keep the 3yr support for the LTS, which is the LTS->LTS upgrade (basically the same as Debian stable + 1yr of oldstable)
23:09:12 <knome> charlie-tca, can you hear what people have to say about this, and do a quick report on what our choices worth considering are?
23:09:23 <charlie-tca> yup
23:09:27 <knome> charlie-tca, thanks
23:09:44 <knome> #action charlie-tca to hear about the 5-year release schedule in UDS and report about it
23:09:44 * meetingology charlie-tca to hear about the 5-year release schedule in UDS and report about it
23:09:44 <charlie-tca> which is why I tried to say "this will be discussed at UDS before the final decision is made"
23:10:02 <knome> i think it was good to hear what people think about it now
23:10:22 <knome> so you can maybe tell some canonical/ubuntu people what we have been thinking about it
23:10:36 <micahg> mr_pouit: but you handled the last LTS->LTS upgrade, if you think it's going to be too crazy to keep doing such a thing (just 2 yrs, i.e. a single LTS), then I respect your opinion on the matter, I'd just wondering how it differs from Debian stable -> stable transitions
23:10:44 <knome> not that i keep high hopes that they'll run for us shouting they will help..
23:11:01 <knome> micahg, i think it really is a madhouse to handle all those upgrades
23:11:19 <knome> listening to mr_pouit's comments here and there
23:11:27 <micahg> knome: Debian has to support it anyways if we stay in sync with the LTS and Debian stable, what extra work is thre
23:11:35 <mr_pouit> micahg: no, we agree on that, I think it's fine as long as we have upgrades such as 4.6 -> 4.8 (we still have that in maintainer scripts)
23:11:57 <mr_pouit> (with 4.6 -> 4.10, maybe we'll start having some nightmares at night ;-)
23:12:27 <micahg> well, will Debian go to 4.10?  If not, I"m happy to stick with 4.8 for the LTS
23:12:30 <knome> mr_pouit, so, are you saying we can keep on supporting lts1 -> lts2 releases, but not lts1 -> lts3 ?
23:12:48 <mr_pouit> so the current scheme for LTS releases (I think it's 3y) seems to be fine
23:13:01 <knome> okay
23:13:01 <charlie-tca> So, supporting LTS at two to three years already means we are behind. If Xfce 4.10 comes out, they no longer support 4.8, which we will have in 12.04?
23:13:14 <mr_pouit> (at least for upgrades)
23:13:16 <GridCube> knome, that would be my suggesting but i know nothing about this
23:13:27 <knome> GridCube, that's why i'm asking mr_pouit ;)
23:13:35 <knome> GridCube, because i don't know either...
23:13:39 <mr_pouit> (we probably need to do more SRUs if we want really to call that a LTS though :p)
23:13:58 <knome> if we drop the "LTS" name
23:13:58 <GridCube> we should keep our current lts program, and review this on 2020
23:14:02 <micahg> mr_pouit: well, if upstream is bug fix only, we can ask for a microrelease exception
23:14:02 <GridCube> :P
23:14:23 <knome> and just call the "LTS->LTS" upgrades "long timeframe updates" or something
23:14:26 <beardygnome> i think we needs some form of lts release
23:14:45 <mr_pouit> micahg: for debian, it depends on the freeze date, but I think it'll be 4.8 if the freeze is in 6 months
23:14:48 <GridCube> or LXS, long xubuntu support
23:14:52 <knome> mr_pouit, does that sound feasible?
23:14:59 <micahg> mr_pouit: I saw rumblings about June...
23:15:42 <micahg> although, 4.10 is supposed to be a polished release, so meh
23:16:14 <knome> i'd say let's end the discussion for today and get back to it after UDS, when we have some more information about it all
23:16:37 <knome> anybody has something REALLY important about this?
23:17:02 <GridCube> ..
23:18:00 <knome> #subtopic ==== Other announcements ====
23:18:17 <knome> i will take one-week (or less) break from FOSS in the following two weeks
23:18:24 <knome> but i'll be back before UDS ends
23:18:29 <GridCube> :)
23:18:55 <micahg> so, is charlie-tca representing Xubuntu at UDS then?
23:19:07 <knome> this is to keep my interest in FOSS growing in the future as well, as well as get some commercial work done, and moreover, to spend time with family and friends
23:19:23 <charlie-tca> Yes, I will represent Xubuntu this time around.
23:19:29 <knome> yes, i give charlie-tca the full rights to represent xubuntu at UDS
23:19:37 <charlie-tca> Unless micahg wants to?
23:19:46 <knome> i wasn't going to attend this time anyway (and i couldn't even if i wanted)
23:20:41 * micahg will probably be testing Firefox updates at UDS :-/
23:21:04 <knome> right. charlie-tca and micahg, feel free to represent xubuntu wherever you go.
23:21:21 * micahg wonders if he can keep all these hats on his head
23:21:27 <knome> just a quick announcement:
23:22:05 <knome> i've briefly talked with the ubuntu studio devs about cooperating in getting something like edubuntu has in installation time - "choose your set of applications"
23:22:16 <GridCube> :D
23:22:33 <knome> these sets for xubuntu could be something like "only core xfce", "all accessibility packages", "full" etc.
23:22:43 <micahg> AFAIK, we don't have an installer dev...
23:23:22 <knome> we don't but ubuntu studio does
23:23:32 <knome> cooperation means they'll do the work and we'll pick the fruits
23:23:44 <knome> not really, but i'd like to investigate this possibility
23:24:05 * micahg is all for collaboration
23:24:29 <knome> yeah, we should cooperate and collaborate more with US devs, especially as they are moving to xfce now too
23:24:53 <knome> anything else?
23:24:57 <GridCube> :) and ubuntustudio wants to use xfce so we can help them there
23:25:13 <GridCube> knome, this is when we speak freely?
23:25:20 <holstein> we look forward to growing and helping you guys :)
23:25:26 <knome> yes, feel free to
23:25:26 <holstein> we = ubuntustudio team
23:25:32 <knome> if nothing arises, i'll close the meeting
23:25:38 <micahg> o/
23:25:39 <GridCube> ok this is my list of things i've come whit
23:25:48 <GridCube> feel free to not pay attentio to them now
23:25:52 <knome> (any outstanding and not-discussed things in the agenda will be discussed in the next meeting)
23:25:53 <GridCube> keyboard indicator for non-led'd keyboards
23:25:53 <GridCube> new set of backgrounds
23:25:53 <GridCube> gpicviewer by default image viewer
23:25:53 <GridCube> darker theme
23:25:54 <GridCube> use places for the pseudo-dock
23:25:58 <GridCube> no autologin option on alternate
23:26:00 <GridCube> no way to add it later whitout manually editing the .conf file
23:26:02 <GridCube> bind the start menu to the meta-key
23:26:04 <GridCube> why gmusicbrowser? going back to exaile is an option?
23:26:08 <GridCube> deluge instead of transmission?
23:26:10 <GridCube> drag-n-drop from thunar to xfburn doesnt work, "its not a feature" was said to me on #xfce
23:26:14 <GridCube> what about talking to lubuntu people and using their package manager?
23:26:48 <knome> GridCube, can you create a blueprint, or at least wikipage for all the application things before we go to them?
23:26:53 * micahg could answer a few of those now
23:27:01 <knome> GridCube, a short comparison/reasoning on why to change etc.
23:27:09 <knome> GridCube, one wikipage is fine too :P
23:27:12 <knome> micahg, go ahead
23:27:29 <micahg> gmusicbrowser only replaced the player, we still have parole seeded
23:27:53 * beardygnome supports keyboard indicator, gpicview and return to exaile
23:27:54 <micahg> drag-n-drop from thunar to xfburn would be feature work upstream
23:28:27 <knome> GridCube, xfburn ^ report a wishlist bug upstream
23:28:33 <mr_pouit> (sorry, I really need to sleep, I'll read the backlog, good night)
23:28:44 <GridCube> :) will do
23:28:53 <GridCube> (when i learn how)
23:29:10 <knome> night mr_pouit, and thanks!
23:29:16 <micahg> Software Center is gaining access to different types of repos (including paid), if the lubuntu manager will have these features, then it's worth a look, otherwise, I don't know about switching unless software center is broke in Xubuntu (in which case we can probably get that fixed)
23:29:30 <knome> i really like synaptic
23:29:40 <micahg> GridCube: but feel free to make a list, we can hash it out later
23:29:46 <micahg> knome: it's still in the repos :)
23:29:46 <GridCube> i like synaptic too, but is not very userfriendly
23:29:50 <knome> while that might not be as clean as software center, it is still quite good
23:29:51 * beardygnome prefers synaptic too
23:29:57 <GridCube> ok ill add it to my wiki page
23:30:00 <knome> micahg, i think we even ship it by default?
23:30:03 <knome> GridCube, thanks
23:30:10 <micahg> knome: I don't think we do anymore..
23:30:25 <micahg> oh, we do still :)
23:30:34 <beardygnome> ubuntu dropped it, iirc
23:30:37 <micahg> right
23:30:43 <knome> we didn't drop :)
23:30:50 <knome> micahg, did you have something else?
23:30:51 <GridCube> we didnt
23:30:56 <micahg> knome: yes, thansk
23:31:14 <micahg> Firefox 8 coming to Stable releases Nov 8
23:31:19 <micahg> oops
23:31:25 <micahg> To natty/oneiric :)
23:31:33 <micahg> and thunderbird 8 in oneiric
23:32:26 <micahg> final builds can be tested at ppa:ubuntu-mozilla-security/ppa, beta builds at ppa:mozillatean/firefox-next and ppa:mozillateam/thunderbird-next
23:32:26 <knome> nice
23:32:42 <micahg> final builds won't be up until some time during UDS
23:32:54 <knome> when is the first SRU
23:33:12 <micahg> knome: can you clarify please?
23:33:21 <knome> micahg, SRU for oneiric?
23:33:29 <micahg> Firefox/Thunderbird?
23:33:34 <knome> no, generally
23:33:42 <knome> and will the FF/TB  updates make it
23:33:44 <micahg> there are no point releases scheduled
23:33:49 <micahg> it's as you go
23:33:53 <knome> okay
23:34:07 <micahg> these are security updates, so hopefully on release day, or as soon as I get them tested
23:34:09 <knome> so we'll have those updates in by the first half of november for sure?
23:34:39 <micahg> yeah, barring upstream hiccups
23:34:43 <knome> mm-hmm
23:34:59 <knome> if you need any help with that, feel free to ask this channel
23:35:07 <knome> others, please help micahg if you can
23:35:18 <micahg> well, beta testing/bug reporting is appreciated
23:35:50 <micahg> final builds as well, but by that point, there's little we can do
23:36:05 <knome> mm-hmm
23:36:16 <knome> okay, is there anything else, or shall i end the meeting?
23:36:33 <micahg> ..
23:36:57 <knome> okay, we're done.
23:37:00 <knome> thanks for attending!
23:37:03 <knome> #endmeeting