19:00 <ErichEickmeyer> #startmeeting
19:00 <meetingology> Meeting started Sat May 26 19:00:16 2018 UTC.  The chair is ErichEickmeyer. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
19:00 <meetingology> 
19:00 <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
19:00 <ErichEickmeyer> #chair OvenWerks
19:00 <meetingology> Current chairs: ErichEickmeyer OvenWerks
19:00 <ErichEickmeyer> #chair eylul captain-tux
19:00 <meetingology> Current chairs: ErichEickmeyer OvenWerks captain-tux eylul
19:00 <ErichEickmeyer> #chair krytarik
19:00 <meetingology> Current chairs: ErichEickmeyer OvenWerks captain-tux eylul krytarik
19:01 <ErichEickmeyer> And that's all I see active atm.
19:02 <OvenWerks> ok
19:02 <ErichEickmeyer> Let's start with -controls since you're here, OvenWerks.
19:02 <ErichEickmeyer> #topic ubuntustudio-controls
19:03 <OvenWerks> -controls is still moving. It can handle more than one USB device and is no longer confused by midi usb devices
19:03 <ErichEickmeyer> Excellent.
19:03 <ErichEickmeyer> That's amazing progress.
19:03 <OvenWerks> the cpu governor now works on 18.* and up
19:04 <ErichEickmeyer> Awesome. Have you thought about indicator-cpufreq? I use it and it comes in handy.
19:04 <OvenWerks> I don't remember If I have yet removed what would work on 16.*
19:04 <ErichEickmeyer> Are we planning on backporting to 16.04?
19:04 <OvenWerks> -controls just sets it right now and at next boot. WHere ever it was at shutdown it should come up the same way
19:05 <OvenWerks> I do not know if the mods to work in 18.* would break 16.* or not.
19:06 <ErichEickmeyer> I say we don't worry about backporting, since we're ultimately going for 18.10 and have the polish done by 20.04.
19:06 <ErichEickmeyer> Gives us a couple years to get it right, know what I mean?
19:06 <OvenWerks> I am finding though, that the version of jackdbus we have doesn't seem as stable at "switch master" as it was when I started
19:07 <ErichEickmeyer> Huh. bug in jackdbus?
19:07 <OvenWerks> This means that for robustness, it appears jack will have to be restarted for master device change... at least some of them
19:08 <OvenWerks> I am not sure if this is a change in jack or alsa
19:08 <ErichEickmeyer> Not surprising considering the number of things that have to be restarted for jack to apply changes.
19:09 <ErichEickmeyer> Anyhow, great.
19:09 <OvenWerks> anyway, a latest package is available to try in: https://launchpad.net/~len-ovenwerks/+archive/ubuntu/ppa/+packages
19:09 <ErichEickmeyer> Cool.
19:10 * ErichEickmeyer still has yet to move to cosmic from bionic.
19:10 <ErichEickmeyer> Now, since I don't want to waste Son_Goku's time...
19:10 <ErichEickmeyer> #topic ubuntustudio-welcome
19:10 <OvenWerks> unchecking the start jackd with session start option will leave the system as stock
19:10 * Son_Goku waves
19:11 <ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Some people had questions about that, and that's what I told them.
19:11 <OvenWerks> it is the one advantage over Cadence
19:11 <ErichEickmeyer> So, for welcome, it's a fork of ubuntu-mate-welcome which is pre-installed as a snap.
19:11 <Son_Goku> :/
19:12 <ErichEickmeyer> But, OvenWerks has concerns about snap, to quote: "I have noticed that for a snap package to run, it needs the snap daemon to be running, That creates a loopback directory which it fills for each snap program... after the program ends, trhose directories are still there."
19:12 <Son_Goku> the thing that was forked from antegros which was forked from korora, right?
19:12 <ErichEickmeyer> Son_Goku: Correct.
19:13 <ErichEickmeyer> I speculate that is by design for the next time the program loads.
19:13 <ErichEickmeyer> Either way, it appears that it can be packaged as a native .deb file, so I'm not too concerned.
19:13 <Son_Goku> technically, you need the snappy daemon running for two purposes:
19:13 <Son_Goku> 1. Managing the snaps on the system
19:14 <Son_Goku> 2. Discovering snaps from the singular Snap Store
19:14 <Son_Goku> snapd is not necessary for the actual usage of snaps, because snaps are mounted by systemd, through mount units
19:14 <Son_Goku> the reason the snaps stick around is because snapd writes them as persistent mount units
19:15 <Son_Goku> you'll find them in /etc/systemd/system
19:15 <Son_Goku> the snappy daemon does generally need to be running for any of the snap tooling to work, but for snap applications themselves, they should not require snapd
19:15 <Son_Goku> this is why I'm not personally a fan of snapping applications that interface with snapd
19:15 <Son_Goku> it creates an awful catch-22 that might not work out so nicely
19:16 <OvenWerks> So an application installer may not be a good canidate
19:16 <ErichEickmeyer> snapd runs by default in every flavor of Ubuntu as of 18.04, I believe.
19:17 <Son_Goku> OvenWerks, the tricky problem is how do you get people to get it?
19:18 <Son_Goku> and last I heard, there have been difficulties with preloading certain classes of snaps on the ISO
19:18 <OvenWerks> apt?
19:18 <Son_Goku> well, if it's a snap, then it becomes problematic
19:18 <Son_Goku> but if it's a regular system package, this is easy
19:19 <ErichEickmeyer> This would be installed by default on Ubuntu Studio from 18.10 onward. (-welcome)
19:19 <ErichEickmeyer> As it currently is on U-MATE and U-Budgie.
19:19 <Son_Goku> I wish all the forks of Korora's welcome would actually help those guys out (*sighs*)
19:19 <Son_Goku> anyway, that's sorta beside the point right nwo
19:19 <Son_Goku> *now
19:20 <Son_Goku> but you probably don't want the snappy code running while it's in live-media mode
19:21 <Son_Goku> I've observed issues with snaps + casper livefs
19:21 <ErichEickmeyer> It doesn't run in the live media.
19:21 <Son_Goku> then you should be fine
19:21 <ErichEickmeyer> The -welcome app is to run after installation.
19:22 <Son_Goku> then yeah, I wouldn't worry about it
19:22 <Son_Goku> it's working as designed
19:23 <Son_Goku> ErichEickmeyer, OvenWerks: anything else?
19:24 <ErichEickmeyer> That's all I have for now. Could we ping you in the future?
19:24 <ErichEickmeyer> You've been very helpful
19:24 <OvenWerks> how do snaps deal with plugins
19:25 <Son_Goku> ErichEickmeyer, sure
19:25 <Son_Goku> I tend to hang out everywhere but the ubuntu channels ;)
19:25 <Son_Goku> but notably, I'm in #snappy
19:25 <Son_Goku> OvenWerks, in what sense?
19:26 <OvenWerks> both graphics applications and audio applications have plugins.
19:26 <OvenWerks> if  daw is run as a snap, where would it see a plugin?
19:26 <OvenWerks> gimp uses plugins as well
19:27 <Son_Goku> it doesn't
19:27 <Son_Goku> that's (hopefully) the point
19:27 <Son_Goku> it would only see stuff that's part of the snap itself
19:27 <OvenWerks> about what I thought
19:27 <Son_Goku> flatpak and snap have some concepts around supporting plugin models
19:27 <ErichEickmeyer> So, one would have to essentially "kitchen sink" the plugins to the snap to get the plugins into the app.
19:28 <Son_Goku> but it's kind of weak
19:28 <OvenWerks> we have had people suggest a snap for problem applications lib wise that have plugins.
19:28 <Son_Goku> especially in snaps, where if you do "classic confinement", you're technically exposing the host system up to the snap
19:28 <Son_Goku> so weird things happen
19:28 <OvenWerks> calf plugins already do that
19:29 <OvenWerks> (no snaps involved)
19:29 <Son_Goku> flatpak has a concept of "extending" application flatpaks with addons, which kind of goes towards what you're talking about
19:29 <Son_Goku> that's how flatpak supports proper GTK/Qt themes for apps, for example
19:29 <Son_Goku> but for snaps, you'd need to write an independent snap that would "bridge" to the main one
19:29 <Son_Goku> and even then, I'm not terribly sure that would work, because unlike flatpaks, snaps don't overlay the filesystem structures on top of each other
19:31 <Son_Goku> I'd probably suggest if you wanted to deliver apps as snaps that typically use plugins, bundle all the plugins into the snap
19:31 <OvenWerks> That sounds like a nightmare
19:31 * Son_Goku shrugs
19:31 <ErichEickmeyer> That settles it then.
19:31 <Son_Goku> if something has changed about it, I haven't heard about it yet
19:32 <OvenWerks> Thats it for me then.
19:32 <ErichEickmeyer> #agreed Ubuntu Studio will not be including snaps of GIMP or any other program that uses plugins until snaps can support plugins.
19:32 <Son_Goku> but as far as I'm aware, that's the sitch
19:32 <Son_Goku> but yes, flatpak supports this: https://blog.tingping.se/2018/03/18/flatpaking-plugins.html
19:33 <ErichEickmeyer> Interesting.
19:33 <ErichEickmeyer> Well, we need to move on to our next topic or we'll be here all day (and I do have to head to work in about 2 hours).
19:33 <Son_Goku> heh
19:34 <ErichEickmeyer> #topic ubuntustudio-plasma
19:34 <Son_Goku> I believe flathub ships some apps as flatpaks with extensions
19:34 <Son_Goku> so take a look at that
19:34 <Son_Goku> ooh, plasma for ubuntustudio :)
19:34 <ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Any progress on Plasma? I've been meaning to get a couple screenshots as proof-of-concept.
19:34 <ErichEickmeyer> Son_Goku: Yep. We announced we'd be adding it as a DE two weeks ago. :)
19:34 <OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: you probably don't want the current theme as I am using it :)
19:35 <Son_Goku> ErichEickmeyer, so like Fedora jam (which also uses Plasma) :)
19:35 <ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: I doubt most people would! haha
19:35 <ErichEickmeyer> Son_Goku: And KXStudio.
19:36 <OvenWerks> https://i.imgur.com/wHegBQl.png
19:36 <ErichEickmeyer> We did quite a bit of testing before landing on Plasma for our first +1 DE. Xfce will remain default for now.
19:36 <ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yep, very close to what I have.
19:36 <ErichEickmeyer> Except the theme where I stuck to Breeze on the windows.
19:37 <OvenWerks> This is breeese I think but I edited the scheme
19:37 <OvenWerks> (colour scheme)
19:37 <ErichEickmeyer> With Breeze being the default for Plasma, I recommend keeping it simple and sticking to the default for 18.10 just to lighten the workload.
19:37 <OvenWerks> I have no problem with that
19:37 <OvenWerks> Mostly I made these changes to see how far I could go
19:37 <ErichEickmeyer> Besides, it already has a dark variant for people who prefer to work that way as well.
19:38 <OvenWerks> (without having to downlaod anything)
19:38 <ErichEickmeyer> Cool. Are we working on a settings package for that?
19:38 <OvenWerks> it's stock
19:40 <OvenWerks> if i understand what you are asking
19:40 <OvenWerks> I have not yet started on a desktop-plasma package because I am working on -controls.
19:40 <ErichEickmeyer> No worries.
19:40 <ErichEickmeyer> I was just curious.
19:41 <ErichEickmeyer> I'd consider solidifying -controls a higher priority this early anyhow since it's a bit more technical.
19:41 <ErichEickmeyer> Anyhow, with that, I think we can move on.
19:42 <ErichEickmeyer> #topic wallpapers
19:42 <OvenWerks> k
19:42 <ErichEickmeyer> eylul already posted earlier, so I'll just take what she wrote and put it in the meeting notes.
19:42 <ErichEickmeyer> Do you have anything to add?
19:43 <OvenWerks> not at this time.
19:43 <eylul> *was actually lurking here for whole time*
19:43 <ErichEickmeyer> LOL!
19:43 <eylul> *continues to lurk*
19:43 <ErichEickmeyer> The mouse speaks!
19:43 <OvenWerks> The peanut gallery has been so quiet.
19:43 <ErichEickmeyer> eylul: Anything to add to what you wrote earlier today?
19:44 <OvenWerks> (lots of other nicks active)
19:44 <eylul> just forgot to say that I think we have decided to go with .png? was that the final verdict?
19:44 <OvenWerks> I think that would be best
19:44 <ErichEickmeyer> Obviously the wacom issue is a thing, but if we can make some sort of gui with -controls or -settings, that would fix that issue for both Xfce and Plasma.
19:44 <OvenWerks> do we need a vote? or did we?
19:44 <ErichEickmeyer> I thought we voted last time?
19:45 <eylul> yeah I think we did.
19:45 <OvenWerks> I will roll back the two changes then.
19:45 <ErichEickmeyer> iirc we went with .png
19:45 <OvenWerks> shood we vote on 4k
19:45 <eylul> I'll convert the files, and get them up... somewhere for next meeting so that they can be uploaded. *is not going near the package editing again*
19:45 <eylul> (not until everything is moved to git)
19:46 <eylul> oh
19:46 <ErichEickmeyer> I think a vote for 4k would be a good idea.
19:46 <eylul> that's my vote
19:46 <ErichEickmeyer> #vote Should wallpapers move to 4k?
19:46 <meetingology> Please vote on: Should wallpapers move to 4k?
19:46 <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
19:46 <ErichEickmeyer> +1
19:46 <meetingology> +1 received from ErichEickmeyer
19:46 <krytarik> -1
19:46 <meetingology> -1 received from krytarik
19:46 <OvenWerks> +1
19:46 <meetingology> +1 received from OvenWerks
19:46 <eylul> +1
19:46 <meetingology> +1 received from eylul
19:46 <captain-tux> +1
19:47 <OvenWerks> krytarik: did you want to say more?
19:47 <krytarik> Well, just seems a little unusual and over the top right now.
19:47 <eylul> unusual compared to...?
19:47 <krytarik> Everything else.
19:48 <eylul> everything else is a very vague descriptor.
19:48 <ErichEickmeyer> #vote
19:48 <meetingology> Voting still open on: Should wallpapers move to 4k?
19:49 <ErichEickmeyer> #endvote
19:49 <meetingology> Voting ended on: Should wallpapers move to 4k?
19:49 <meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:1 Abstentions:0
19:49 <meetingology> Motion carried
19:49 <ErichEickmeyer> We can revisit that.
19:49 <ErichEickmeyer> #undo
19:49 <meetingology> Removing item from minutes: INFO
19:49 <OvenWerks> yes it seems there could be some discusion
19:49 <eylul> I love meetingology. XD
19:50 <ErichEickmeyer> smh
19:50 <ErichEickmeyer> So, we need further discussion on this. krytarik has a valid point, and I believe some discussion is merited.
19:51 <eylul> I do disagree with that (the valid point, not discussion aspect)
19:51 <OvenWerks> :)
19:51 <eylul> I do need more than everything else is different as an argument. with no clear explanation of what everything else is, to figure out if it is relevant to us or not
19:52 <ErichEickmeyer> krytarik: You okay? Some point-of-view on this would be nice.
19:52 <ErichEickmeyer> We can revote if the argument is compelling enough.
19:53 <OvenWerks> We had already voted on whatever hires was last year so we can start with that
19:53 <OvenWerks> 1024P or something
19:54 <OvenWerks> having made that choice it is perhaps a bit quick to jump again.
19:54 <ErichEickmeyer> Might be. Granted, 4k looks better on 4k and scales down well enough, but sticking to 1024 for now isn't a bad idea. Maybe revisit 4k after 18.10?
19:55 <eylul> 1080p is not HiRes and never was, and I do disagree with this decision
19:56 <eylul> 4K was the resolution of wallpaper we were ready to put up to 18.04 without discussion before I brought it up. :)
19:56 <OvenWerks> really the choice can wait till beta. It may take a bit to put thoughts for or against into words.
19:56 <ErichEickmeyer> Yeah. Should we table this for another date?
19:56 <OvenWerks> Ah, didn't look taht close
19:57 <OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: I think so
19:57 <ErichEickmeyer> Well, let's vote on the vote.
19:57 <eylul> and nobody had any disagreements with it after testing until one random comment. I am all for discussion. I have serious issues about us hesitating to change decisions because one person who hasn't contributed to discussion. (as small relatively speaking as this particular problem is) and yeah lets table it :)
19:58 <ErichEickmeyer> #vote Table switching to 4k discussion for later date
19:58 <meetingology> Please vote on: Table switching to 4k discussion for later date
19:58 <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
19:58 <ErichEickmeyer> +1
19:58 <meetingology> +1 received from ErichEickmeyer
19:58 <OvenWerks> +1
19:58 <meetingology> +1 received from OvenWerks
19:58 <OvenWerks> we seem to have lost everyone
19:59 <ErichEickmeyer> Yeah. Not sure why. :(
19:59 <eylul> +1
19:59 <meetingology> +1 received from eylul
19:59 <ErichEickmeyer> krytarik, captain-tux?
19:59 <eylul> as long as the discussion happens timely for 18.10
19:59 <captain-tux> +1
19:59 <meetingology> +1 received from captain-tux
20:00 <captain-tux> Yeah, that, I'm set.
20:00 <ErichEickmeyer> Yeah. I'll keep it in the agenda to discuss next week, but not necessarily make a decision.
20:00 <ErichEickmeyer> #endvote
20:00 <meetingology> Voting ended on: Table switching to 4k discussion for later date
20:00 <meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
20:00 <meetingology> Motion carried
20:01 <ErichEickmeyer> #topic Website Theme
20:01 <ErichEickmeyer> SlidingHorn isn't here, but do we have any progress here?
20:01 <eylul> no update from me.
20:02 <ErichEickmeyer> Okay.
20:02 <ErichEickmeyer> That's it for the agenda. Anything else to add?
20:03 <eylul> not from me. I am looking at the kde wacom interface linked. I didn't realize it was still actively developed.
20:03 <ErichEickmeyer> Interesting.
20:03 <OvenWerks> Which link?
20:03 <ErichEickmeyer> That definitelly needs to be something we include in -plasma.
20:04 <eylul> OvenWerks: Alexansander's reply to my email.
20:04 <eylul> https://github.com/KDE/wacomtablet :)
20:05 <ErichEickmeyer> Ah, it's a KCM.
20:05 <ErichEickmeyer> #topic Wacom Tablet
20:06 <ErichEickmeyer> Last release was 3.0 on April 3.
20:06 <ErichEickmeyer> Needs to be packaged.
20:07 <eylul> *nods*
20:07 <ErichEickmeyer> Apparently already being worked on by the Kubuntu team: https://launchpad.net/~kubuntu-ppa/+archive/ubuntu/experimental
20:08 <eylul> Kubuntu team is great :)
20:08 <ErichEickmeyer> I'll keep up to date with them. Definitely a collaboration thing here. :)
20:09 <OvenWerks> anyone have a good suggestion for an inexpesive tablet?
20:10 <ErichEickmeyer> Shall we end the meeting first?
20:10 <OvenWerks> (k
20:10 <eylul> yes but will wait for meeting to be over :)
20:10 <ErichEickmeyer> #endmeeting