12:03 <popey> #startmeeting Music App meeting
12:03 <meetingology> Meeting started Mon Oct 13 12:03:06 2014 UTC.  The chair is popey. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
12:03 <meetingology> 
12:03 <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
12:03 <ahayzen> popey, sup
12:03 <ahayzen> vthompson, o/
12:03 <vthompson> popey, ahayzen, Good day!
12:03 <popey> Good day indeed.
12:03 <ahayzen> raining :/
12:03 <jounih> hey
12:03 <popey> o/
12:03 <ahayzen> jounih, o/
12:03 <vthompson> jounih, I was just going to ask about you. Hello!
12:04 <ahayzen> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/music-app/+spec/music-remix-2.0
12:04 <jounih> hello hello
12:04 <jounih> how’s things
12:04 <jounih> I’m just flashing my phone with the latest build, will install the click after that
12:04 <popey> You're okay with the install process for music remix click jounih ?
12:04 <vthompson> really good, some of what we'll want to talk about isn't on the newest click.
12:05 <jounih> popey: yeah tried it last week, was good thanks
12:05 <popey> ok, good
12:05 <ahayzen> \o/
12:05 <popey> vthompson: fire away.
12:05 <jounih> vthompson: Ok cool. Want to start now?
12:05 <ahayzen> vthompson, where do we wanna start?
12:05 <vthompson> So, I wanted to start with a discussion on how we want to do Now Playing/Queue toggle
12:06 <jounih> ok
12:06 <vthompson> I think what we have and what jounih wanted are but a bit hard to use for a user
12:06 <jounih> on the now playing page, it’s an icon in the header
12:06 <jounih> and on the queue view we have a back button to go back to “now playing”
12:06 <vthompson> yes, and then that same icon turns into an icon with a different purpose
12:07 <jounih> ahh. what icon does it turn into on the queue view?
12:07 <vthompson> dpm filed a bug that I think we need to figure out: https://bugs.launchpad.net/music-app/+bug/1379895
12:07 <ahayzen> jounih, you were talking about putting a clear all button? or something
12:07 <vthompson> jounih, well, right now it is still to close the Queue view... but I had heard that the design was that it should clear the queue
12:08 <jounih> ok ok got you
12:08 <jounih> yes the action on queue view should be clear queue.. bad choice of icon there, I’ll try to find something else
12:08 <ahayzen> jounih, you were getting a better icon for this though right?
12:08 <jounih> i can see how it could be confusing
12:09 <jounih> so the fix here would be to replace the action icon for “clear queue” with a better icon
12:09 <vthompson> I also don't like how you can't get back to the main view or just the Now Playing easily
12:09 <ahayzen> vthompson, you get from the queue to the now playing via the back button and then hit back again to go to the main view?
12:10 <vthompson> I was thinking we could use header sections like this: http://i.imgur.com/Qefr1wp.png
12:10 <vthompson> This would allow the user to easily toggle the two views and also go back to the library at any tim
12:10 <vthompson> e
12:10 * ahayzen tries other phone to see what they do
12:10 <ahayzen> vthompson, the only thing with that is the repeated text...you get 'now playing' or 'queue' twice
12:11 <jounih> yeah we can do that too. I don’t like the current visual implementation of those sections, but I think from an UX point of view it works ok
12:11 <vthompson> Google Music does it very similar to how we have it coded, it's just the icon doesn't change to a close button... the icon gets highlighted. They also have transitions... so it looks more like one view is being opened/closed
12:11 <ahayzen> interesting
12:11 <jounih> ok how about this
12:12 <vthompson> ahayzen, kinda like the queue is On then it can be turned Off
12:12 <jounih> in the “queue” view, we add an icon for getting back to the “now playing” view
12:13 <ahayzen> vthompson, yeah i like that i'm just saying the repeated info looks a *little* funny
12:13 <vthompson> ahayzen, yep, agree 100%
12:13 <jounih> forget that there is a close button there, we are getting rid of that and replacing it with a more apt icon for “clear queue”
12:13 <ahayzen> could we keep the same toggle button in both the now playing and queue
12:13 <ahayzen> but in the queue have 2 actions ... clear and toggle
12:13 <ahayzen> and then have the back button do what it does currently (go back to the main view)
12:13 <jounih> yes
12:14 <vthompson> jounih, so we'd have a "go to queue" action in Now Playing, and in Queue have a "go to now playing" and a "clear queue" action?
12:14 <ahayzen> vthompson, ^^ ? best of both worlds?
12:14 <jounih> vthompson: yes. what do you think?
12:14 <ahayzen> i think try that and see how it feels
12:14 <jounih> essentially does the same as the section headers. I think both approaches could work
12:14 <vthompson> yea, so long as the icon for going back to the Now Playing page stays in the same location as going to the Queue was
12:14 <jounih> let me find an icon to replace the “clear queue” with right now
12:15 <ahayzen> vthompson, we can make sure of that though :)
12:15 <vthompson> jounih, I looked... trash icon was the only one that seemed adequate
12:15 <jounih> vthompson: yeah! good idea. go with the trash
12:15 <ahayzen> vthompson, is that the "delete" one?
12:15 <vthompson> ahayzen, yep
12:15 <ahayzen> cool
12:15 <jounih> I think it will do the job better than the clear textfield icon, which looks like a close button
12:15 <vthompson> Ok, I like this.
12:16 <ahayzen> yeah same
12:16 <ahayzen> so i noticed that we have no bottom margins... https://bugs.launchpad.net/music-app/+bug/1380102
12:16 <vthompson> How many actions do we think we might end up with?
12:16 <ahayzen> vthompson, potentially lots but they can go in the overflow and we can keep the toggle shown right?
12:16 <jounih> I like the tabs on android, which are the same as section headers on our platform… just don’t like the current visual implementation of our section headers.. or the big divider under the header
12:17 <vthompson> ahayzen, right and I was just thinking that maybe we should force "clear queue" into overflow so it gets text to also make it clear that it clears the queue
12:17 <jounih> ahayzen: yes please add 2gu bottom margin
12:17 <vthompson> also the action isn't used that often
12:17 <ahayzen> jounih, should that be *everywhere* we suspect maybe not just the queue || songs tab
12:17 <jounih> ahayzen: yes
12:17 <ahayzen> vthompson, yeah maybe
12:18 <ahayzen> jounih, cool thanks just wanted to check :)
12:18 <jounih> this is shaping up nicely. maybe we can do a tablet/desktop version once we’re done with the mobile
12:18 <popey> hah
12:18 <popey> walking first...
12:18 <jounih> (we don’t really have any desktop UI widgets yet though)
12:19 <jounih> yeah yeah :)
12:19 <popey> ☻
12:19 <ahayzen> hah
12:19 <vthompson> it might be hard for our app... a lot of wasted space in the list views currently in tablet view
12:19 <ahayzen> cardview ftw :)
12:19 <ahayzen> ok so we started working on the 2x2 covers...
12:20 <ahayzen> a few examples here https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3XynHVKfrvMNnFuZGRqc0pHZlk/edit https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3XynHVKfrvMSWw5NlFWUHpnR1k/edit
12:20 <popey> good docs working for you?
12:20 <ahayzen> jounih, what do you think of the way we are handling when there are only 2 or 3 covers.. (the killers in the first and the playlist in the second)
12:21 <ahayzen> popey, ..yes... not for u?
12:21 <jounih> ahayzen: looking alright. I wonder if we don’t have coverart, maybe we reduce the grid?
12:21 <popey> taking an age
12:21 <popey> connnecting...
12:21 <jounih> docs working fine here
12:21 <ahayzen> popey, blame google
12:21 <popey> ya
12:21 <ahayzen> jounih, yeah only have 1 empty cover art rather than repeating?
12:21 <jounih> well like the first one here - https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3XynHVKfrvMNnFuZGRqc0pHZlk/edit
12:22 <jounih> instead of having 2x2 grid with mostly placeholder art
12:22 <vthompson> ahayzen, hm, I think we can't check for dups if it's blank
12:22 <jounih> just ditch the grid and show the one album cover you have
12:22 <vthompson> Or at least there was a reason we couldn't before I thought
12:22 <ahayzen> vthompson, i think we can investigate hehe
12:22 <jounih> maybe?
12:23 <ahayzen> vthompson, once it has loaded we should be able to check if it is the blank one somehow right? and then remove from the list and rerender
12:23 <ahayzen> vthompson, or something like that
12:23 <vthompson> jounih, right, that's what should be done... it's just that the app doesn't know that it only has 1 valid cover... it has 4 different cover urls there
12:23 <vthompson> ahayzen, yea, worth looking into
12:23 <ahayzen> vthompson, or are they actually valid but the thumbnailer does it
12:23 <jounih> right so you don’t get any data from thumbnailer that tells you which one is a valid cover and which not
12:24 <ahayzen> vthompson, this goes back to wanted custom fallback art as well
12:24 <ahayzen> *wanting
12:24 <jounih> maybe we should reach out to thumbnailer peeps to maybe give us a property along with the url if cover art is not found
12:24 <vthompson> yes, and I thought for an image or two we had that... but I know thumbnailer rolled a few things back
12:24 <jounih> so that apps can customise the default “not found” image
12:24 <ahayzen> vthompson, it broke the scopes or something
12:25 <ahayzen> vthompson, so they had to revert until fixes land there
12:25 <ahayzen> https://bugs.launchpad.net/thumbnailer/+bug/1324142
12:25 <ahayzen> https://code.launchpad.net/~jamesh/thumbnailer/no-fallback-albumart/+merge/219460
12:25 <ahayzen> i think if the scopes handle it correctly then it can land
12:25 <vthompson> jounih, yea, we'll have to see what we can do... honestly the blank cover art looks OK in the new dark background
12:26 <ahayzen> vthompson, far better than on the old ;) you could hardly see it lol
12:26 <vthompson> but having a way of knowing it's being used would be useful
12:26 <vthompson> yep :)
12:27 <jounih> vthompson: it looks ok when small, pretty awful when scaled up to full size
12:27 <vthompson> jounih, would it make sense to also show the "clear queue" action in the Now Playing view?
12:27 <vthompson> jounih, ha, yea that's true
12:27 <jounih> vthompson: no, since there is no queue in “now playing”
12:27 <jounih> the actions should be relevant to the view
12:27 <vthompson> Ok
12:27 <ahayzen> contextual actions \o/
12:28 <ahayzen> jounih, so are you ok with the 1x1 and 2x1 examples in those examples ^^ ?
12:28 <popey> finally loads here.
12:28 <ahayzen> popey, hah blame the weather
12:29 <popey> like them fwiw
12:29 <popey> just worry what it will look like with no thumbnails..
12:29 <ahayzen> :)
12:30 <ahayzen> popey, R.E.M. shows what it looks like with mostly no thumbnails
12:30 <popey> yes, thats what made me think about it
12:30 <ahayzen> but as were saying if we could detect the no thumbnail and then only show it once
12:31 <ahayzen> only thing is then the number of covers potentially won't match the number of covers for that item
12:32 <ahayzen> vthompson, did we decided that the AlbumsPage would be a CardView or did that need confirming? (the one after clicking an artist?)
12:33 <ahayzen> *decide
12:33 <ahayzen> ...i really should not rewrite sentences as i'm typing...
12:33 <vthompson> ahayzen, right we have not
12:33 <vthompson> jounih, so what should the Artists tab look like?
12:34 <jounih> we should be getting pretty good album art coverage in 2014.. I’ll try to get a hold of the thumbnailer guys next week on the spring to test the 7digital api and see if there are any other sources we could include
12:34 <vthompson> List or Staggered grid?
12:34 <ahayzen> vthompson, i'll take a screeny so jounih can see what happens after you click an artist
12:34 <jounih> vthompson: i’m ok with either.. which one do you think?
12:34 <jounih> srping=sprint
12:34 <ahayzen> cardview is more scaleable to tablet
12:34 <jounih> yeah
12:35 <popey> jounih: ahayzen and vthompson will also be at the sprint
12:35 <vthompson> jounih, I think grid might work best since there isn't very much textual data to present
12:35 <popey> (in case you didnt know)
12:35 <jounih> great, will buy you guys a beer :)
12:35 <jounih> If Jussi is there we can ask him about the thumbnailer
12:35 <ahayzen> \o/
12:35 <ahayzen> jounih, this is what currently happens if you click an artist https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3XynHVKfrvMelZGck93Y3lJWWs/edit
12:36 <ahayzen> jounih, what i'm thinking is using a cardview of the albums and having two header actions (play all and queue all) to cover the play/queue all of the artist
12:37 <jounih> ok yeah anything except that current view please :D
12:38 <vthompson> :P
12:38 <ahayzen> haha
12:38 <jounih> cardview with the actions you suggested sounds like a good plan
12:38 <vthompson> ahayzen, would there be a header item of sorts?
12:38 <jounih> what kind of header?
12:38 <ahayzen> vthompson, header actions play all | queue all for the artist ? and then click on the album to then do play/queue all of that?
12:39 <jounih> ahayzen: sounds good to me
12:39 <ahayzen> :)
12:39 <ahayzen> ok thats good
12:39 <vthompson> Well let me back up a bit. jounih, do you think we should use the "artist art" that the scope uses to represent an Artist in the Artists tab?
12:39 <ahayzen> yep vthompson do you have a screenshot of your branch?
12:39 <vthompson> no, let me make one
12:39 <ahayzen> or shall i push across and screenshot...it was looking good
12:40 <jounih> vthompson: can’t remember what that looks like.. you mean you can requests an image of the artist, rather than a cover art of one of the albums?
12:40 <vthompson> jounih, yep
12:40 <ahayzen> jounih, yep
12:40 <jounih> if that works yeah go for it
12:40 <jounih> depends on how many blanks we get i guess
12:41 <jounih> artist images vs album art
12:41 <ahayzen> there weren't many blanks for me just maybe low res
12:41 <jounih> ok let’s roll with that
12:41 <jounih> and see how it looks
12:41 <vthompson> http://i.imgur.com/zrmsoAS.png
12:42 <vthompson> I get a bunch of blanks a lot of the time... but again this should get better as we get better coverage I'd hope
12:42 <ahayzen> we're the same as the scope then anyway
12:42 <vthompson> right
12:42 <ahayzen> which helps with popey's cover art confusion bug
12:42 <jounih> oh dear, yeah that is low res.. I think we need to again update the api query with the resolution parameter
12:42 <popey> ya
12:42 <popey> it looks pretty awful
12:42 <vthompson> also, I think most other apps use artist art as well
12:43 <vthompson> Google Music does at least
12:43 <jounih> yeah makes sense
12:43 <jounih> let’s do it
12:43 <ahayzen> i still wonder if something weird is going on with the qml thumbnailer as it looks far better in the scopes
12:43 <ahayzen> maybe something to ask them
12:43 <jounih> yeah let’s grab them next week
12:43 <jounih> and handcuff jussi to a laptop until it’s fixed
12:43 <jounih> small thing but makes a big visual difference
12:43 <ahayzen> yeah
12:44 <vthompson> agreed, we should have a way of fixing... maybe we need to specify the resolution or something
12:44 <ahayzen> ok i guess the next thing to discuss is the "All Music" or "Recent" tab
12:44 <vthompson> something is off
12:44 <vthompson> ahayzen, hold on 1 sec
12:44 <ahayzen> vthompson, something bad is happening ;)
12:45 <vthompson> So, once a user selects an artist we go into the view ahayzen was talking about with a list of albums... which will now be the staggered grid
12:45 <ahayzen> yeah...
12:45 <vthompson> Right now that would be a page with a header of "Artist" with a bunch of grid items.... do we need a header ListItem or some other thing that lists what the Artist is and maybe how many albums there are?
12:46 <vthompson> more or less reuse the same artist artwork
12:46 <jounih> I’m wondering if we should try a 3 column grid for artists cardview
12:46 <ahayzen> vthompson, yeah maybe like the SongsPage ?
12:46 <ahayzen> vthompson, ooo that could work well actually and then have the same 3 buttons
12:47 <vthompson> jounih, that would help the resolution as well
12:47 <jounih> yeah
12:47 <ahayzen> +1 on 3 columns
12:47 <jounih> wanna give it a shot?
12:47 <vthompson> Ok, so jounih do you think the artists page should be like the albums view as well--with the green buttons and whatnot?
12:47 <vthompson> I think that'd work well
12:47 <ahayzen> same
12:48 <vthompson> then we could use the artist art again
12:48 <ahayzen> yep that would flow nicely
12:49 <jounih> I thought it would be just a cardview of all of their albums/songs
12:49 <jounih> but thinking about it
12:49 <ahayzen> but how would you know which artist the albums are from?
12:49 <jounih> oh so a couple of levels
12:49 <jounih> root is list of artists
12:49 <ahayzen> you could have a cardview with a header of the artist
12:49 <vthompson> So, we could do the same header with a blurred item and the buttons, and then do a card view under that... or is that too busy
12:49 <jounih> then you tap on “Jimi Hendrix”
12:50 <ahayzen> yeah Artists (tab) -> Albums for that Artist -> Tracks for that Album -> Now Playing
12:50 <jounih> the next view has “Jimi Hendrix” on the header and shows all his albums
12:50 <ahayzen> yeah
12:50 <jounih> I thought this view would be a cardview too
12:51 <vthompson> So, if we do force artist names into the header, we risk them often times being too long
12:51 <jounih> but yeah it could also be the artist photo and name at the top, and a listview of songs under that
12:51 <ahayzen> yeah but with the header (blurred thing with 3 buttons)
12:51 <vthompson> or visually unappealing
12:51 <ahayzen> we could still do a cardview
12:51 <jounih> try it out and see what it feels like
12:51 <jounih> think both could work
12:52 <vthompson> k, I agree... the card view just might be too busy looking, maybe 3 wide there as well
12:52 <ahayzen> so Artists tab (cardview) -> Albums (cardview + header) -> Tracks (listview + header) ?
12:52 <vthompson> +1
12:52 <ahayzen> yeah we'll try 2/3 columns
12:53 <jounih> yeah that sounds good
12:54 <jounih> try albums with the blur header, and without the blur header (artist name in header bar instead)
12:54 <jounih> and see which one works better I guess
12:55 <ahayzen> yeah we just don't like putting user data in the tab header as it is unpredictable
12:56 <vthompson> That and it'd be inconsistent since we don't do so for an album
12:56 <ahayzen> yeah everywhere else the tab header has the context of the data
12:58 <ahayzen> vthompson, so "All Music" || "Recent" tab discussion?
12:58 <jounih> I think the contacts app has the contact name in the header
12:58 <jounih> both on ubuntu and android
12:58 <jounih> but fair enough, I know what you mean
12:58 <jounih> might be nicer this way anyway
12:58 <vthompson> jounih, right and I agree, even in music apps the artist or album is usually in the header... but the text is typically smaller
12:59 <vthompson> and usually 2 lines of text
12:59 <jounih> vthompson: yeah our header font is too big. been trying to change it smaller for a long time, and it actually has come down a bit. but it’s still too big
13:00 <jounih> let’s just keep it consistent with the album view
13:00 <jounih> you have twisted my arm
13:01 <vthompson> jounih, shall we still try both grid and list views?
13:01 <jounih> yeah please
13:01 <jounih> can you do screenshots?
13:02 <vthompson> we'll have to implement it first, but we'll do just that
13:06 <popey> Do we have a handle on all the to-do's coming out of this discussion?
13:06 <vthompson> I believe so. And I think we've mostly flushed out all of the views now
13:07 <ahayzen> vthompson, just the debate we were having about the start page? or are we clear with that now?
13:07 <vthompson> ahayzen, so we decided to present the user with what exactly if they have no recent items?
13:07 <vthompson> Just a list of all albums alphabetically sorted?
13:08 <ahayzen> vthompson, start on the albums tab by default
13:08 <ahayzen> vthompson, and have that view exclusively for recent.... jounih we were going to have some kind of empty state on the recent tab?
13:08 <vthompson> And have recent be blank? Maybe have some nice text describing that the user has no recent items?
13:08 <ahayzen> yeah
13:08 <jounih> yeah I need to do the empty state design
13:09 <jounih> how can users get music atm? just via tethering right?
13:09 <vthompson> empty state for 1) the user having no music and they need to import, and 2) maybe an empty state just for the start tab with recent items
13:09 <ahayzen> jounih, tethering (mtp) ... content-hub (download off web) ... sd card
13:10 <ahayzen> yeah we need two empty state types
13:10 <jounih> does the content hub transfer between browser and music work?
13:10 <ahayzen> jounih, yeah and the bittorrent app...or any other app that exports music
13:10 <ahayzen> jounih, even the 7digital scope i believe sortof works (there are a few bugs to sort)
13:10 <jounih> ok and how does SD card work with music currently? I think we are doing some work on that
13:10 <popey> it "just works"
13:10 <ahayzen> :)
13:11 <popey> put music on the sdcard in "Music" folder and it appears
13:11 <ahayzen> we see what mediascanner sees
13:11 <popey> phablet@ubuntu-phablet:~$ du -hs /media/phablet/1BCE-C3FF
13:11 <popey> 7.3G    /media/phablet/1BCE-C3FF
13:11 <popey> all my music is on my sd card ^
13:11 <jounih> brb meeting
13:11 <ahayzen> \o/
13:12 <ahayzen> so basically we need two empty states... one for when you have no music and one for when you have no recent items
13:12 <vthompson> Ok, so that should be enough to start on the Recent tab
13:12 <ahayzen> yeah agreed
13:12 <ahayzen> vthompson, there were talks of having a genre tab...but then can be added later
13:12 <ahayzen> *but that
13:12 <vthompson> ahayzen, we should put screenshots of the current playlist management stuff so jounih can fix them
13:12 <ahayzen> vthompson, well quite a bit is changing with my mps?
13:13 <ahayzen> vthompson, and jounih said he was doing the edit/remove/add dialogues
13:13 <vthompson> hm, I meant more along the lines of "Name your playlist" and all the dialog stuff
13:13 <vthompson> yep
13:13 <ahayzen> yeah
13:14 <ahayzen> vthompson, ok is that all the design stuff?
13:14 <vthompson> I think so
13:14 <ahayzen> popey, did we get any feedback from the weekend?
13:15 <ahayzen> popey, i saw dpm reporting a few bugs :)
13:15 * dpm loves the new music app :)
13:15 <popey> excellent
13:15 <ahayzen> dpm, :D
13:15 <vthompson> :)
13:16 <popey> Are we waiting for jounih returning?
13:16 <popey> Or shall we wrap up? Anything else outstanding?
13:17 <ahayzen> popey, nothing else from me... we can tell him about the empty states we need when he gets back/later
13:17 <vthompson> Not that I can think of.... I have mps from ahayzen to review
13:17 <ahayzen> i have mps from vthompson to review :)
13:17 <vthompson> We'll try to land some/most of them today
13:17 <ahayzen> vthompson, i see i'm not the only one proposing against trunk and then having to repropose into remix aha
13:18 <vthompson> :P hastily reading IRC and clicking on buttons does not mix well
13:18 <ahayzen> :)
13:18 <vthompson> I think that's it guys. Next week this time everything should be mostly done!
13:18 <ahayzen> popey, i think we're done :)
13:18 <ahayzen> vthompson, hopefully :D
13:19 <popey> Awesome.
13:19 <popey> Thanks chaps.
13:19 <ahayzen> thanks popey jounih dpm vthompson
13:19 <vthompson> Later popey jounih ahayzen dpm
13:19 <popey> #endmeeting