20:00 <popey> #startmeeting Ubuntu Touch File Manager app meeting
20:00 <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jul 18 20:00:28 2013 UTC.  The chair is popey. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
20:00 <meetingology> 
20:00 <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
20:00 <popey> the usual links:-
20:00 <popey> blueprint: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu-phone-commons/+spec/initial-filemanager-development
20:00 <popey> bugs: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-filemanager-app/+bugs?orderby=-id&start=0
20:00 <popey> reviews: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-filemanager-dev/ubuntu-filemanager-app/trunk/+activereviews
20:01 <popey> burndown: http://status.ubuntu.com/coreapps-13.10/
20:01 <popey> How are you all?
20:01 <iBelieve> popey, great!
20:01 <CarlosMazieri__> fine, thanks
20:02 <ajalkane> From where i stand great progress. And sorry but my shift keys don't work with all letters :)
20:02 <popey> I will contain my outrage.
20:03 <ajalkane> thanks. the most glaring one is that i can't capitalize i. :)
20:04 <popey> So we've hit the end of month-3 milestone
20:04 <popey> any new work items should be targetted to month-4
20:05 <popey> the copy/paste test work item, hows that progressing?
20:05 <iBelieve> popey, the copy/paste folder test and the cut/paste file & folder tests work, but the copy/paste file test throws DBus exceptions
20:05 <popey> oof
20:06 <popey> do we have a bug for that?
20:06 <iBelieve> No, I haven't filed a bug. I don't know where I'd file it. I asked balloons for help a few days ago, but then ran out of time.
20:07 <popey> uh-oh, you invoked him!
20:08 <iBelieve> popey, where should I file the bug? In File Manager?
20:08 <popey> for now yes, and we can ask balloons to take a look
20:09 <iBelieve> popey, okay, I'll file it after we're done
20:09 <popey> thanks
20:09 <popey> any other questions/issues?
20:10 <iBelieve> popey, I've got several.
20:10 <popey> great, go for it
20:10 <iBelieve> popey, to start, why hasn't the alpha-1 milestone been released? It is marked as due by 5-16.
20:11 <popey> So the milestones we setup were kinda soft milestones.
20:11 <popey> We didn't intend to create releases at those points
20:11 <popey> which perhaps we should have considered
20:11 <iBelieve> popey, okay. So what needs to get finished before we release the first alpha? The app seems to have a good set of basic features already.
20:12 <popey> Ah okay.
20:12 <popey> So two things. We have the tasks on the blueprint (linked above), which are the overall tasks that need completion
20:12 <popey> ..then there's the dogfooding high level goals.
20:12 <popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/CoreApps/Dogfooding#File_Manager
20:12 <popey> so there's a few high level goals there
20:13 <iBelieve> popey, all the dogfooding goals have been met.
20:13 <popey> yeah, i'll update that
20:14 <popey> done
20:14 <iBelieve> So what sort of UI features would be good to add now? I'm looking for something to work on next :)
20:16 <popey> Good question!
20:16 <ajalkane> lacking anything more urgent there's always the progress dialog thing we discussed in e-mail
20:17 <ajalkane> but on the whole the progress has been amazing so thank iBelieve
20:17 <iBelieve> I was thinking about adding "advanced features", things like Open in Terminal or Filter by a regex, that would only be shown if the user wants to see advanced features. What do you guys think having advanced features that would be hidden by default?
20:17 <ajalkane> * thanks
20:17 <ajalkane> i think advanced features would be very welcome if there's time to do them
20:18 <popey> Indeed.
20:18 <ajalkane> file manager is one app that advanced users want
20:18 <popey> Absolutely.
20:18 <popey> I wonder if we should canvas the userbase ?
20:18 <iBelieve> would it be a good idea to have a setting to show them, but hide them by default?
20:18 <ajalkane> but like you've planned, it's good to have it easy to use for not-so-advanced users too
20:18 <CarlosMazieri__> filter by regex already exists
20:18 <popey> ask what people want in a file manager, and perhaps curate some of those suggestions
20:18 <iBelieve> CarlosMazieri__, yep, that's why I've been working on a UI for it :)
20:19 <CarlosMazieri__> iBelieve: OK, thanks
20:19 <iBelieve> popey, I'll send out an email to the mailing list and try to get some feedback on the concept.
20:19 <ajalkane> Ah look at that, finally updated, and my previous hack for toolbar height is not needed anymore it seems. Now there's unused space before toolbar. Great
20:19 <popey> Expect to get a laundry-list of features ☻
20:20 <iBelieve> ajalkane, it doesn't work right without that either. I tried removing that, and it still clips a little above the toolbar
20:21 <ajalkane> iBelieve: ah... hmm... too bad
20:21 <iBelieve> So for the progress bar for copying/moving files, would that be a good idea to see about integrating that into the SDK? That way it can be displayed correctly on all form factors, like in the status bar on the desktop.
20:21 <ajalkane> But right now it's too large. the empty space is more than the height of the toolbar
20:22 <ajalkane> iBelieve: there's no progress bar yet in sdk?
20:22 <iBelieve> ajalkane, there is, but I mean a feature to display app progress, like the progress bar in Unity indicators.
20:23 <iBelieve> ajalkane, by having the SDK handle progress for a task, it can decide how to display the progress, such as in a Unity indicator, in the app's status bar (on the desktop), or in the top bar on a phone.
20:23 <ajalkane> ah i see
20:24 * dpm would welcome "Open Terminal" in folder
20:24 <iBelieve> well, I'll file it as a bug in ubuntu-ui-toolkit and see what happens.
20:25 <iBelieve> dpm, I'm working on that as advanced feature that is hidden by default.
20:25 <dpm> cool!
20:25 <iBelieve> dpm, I'd like that too :)
20:25 <ajalkane> +1
20:25 <iBelieve> the problem is, the SDK devs don't want Actions to have a visible property, so I'm not sure how to hide actions. :(
20:25 <popey> Oh, sorry, I should have said, I agree, "open in terminal" would be great
20:26 <iBelieve> I file a bug in ubuntu-ui-toolkit requesting a visible property in Action, but it was marking as Invalid, so I'm not sure how to hide the feature.
20:26 <iBelieve> * filed
20:27 <ajalkane> iBelieve: hmm... i remember i ran into that as well.
20:27 <ajalkane> did the give any rationale?
20:27 <ajalkane> * they
20:27 <iBelieve> the bug is LP 1202469
20:27 <iBelieve> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-ui-toolkit/+bug/1202469
20:27 <popey> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-ui-toolkit/+bug/1202469
20:27 <popey> ☻
20:28 <popey> that's timp on irc if you need to ask him questions online.
20:28 <iBelieve> ajalkane, no. I was told to use enabled, but if certain features are advanced, I want to make it hidden, not disabled.
20:29 <iBelieve> popey, thanks, I'll talk to him after the meeting
20:29 <ajalkane> iBelieve: i agree, in this situation disabled is not enough
20:29 <iBelieve> popey, what channel would be best?
20:29 <ajalkane> i'd even argue disabled is confusing
20:29 <popey> iBelieve: wherever you find him, #ubuntu-app-devel maybe
20:30 <iBelieve> ajalkane, especially since the list item doesn't get grayed out, as in the Paste action. (very confusing, I should file a bug)
20:30 <ajalkane> iBelieve: perhaps only workaround is having two ActionSelectionpopover'ss :(
20:31 <ajalkane> but i think this should be solved in ui toolkit level
20:31 <iBelieve> ajalkane, not a bad idea, I could try that. But then what to do about the HUD's actions? We'd want an action to open the current folder in a terminal.
20:31 <ajalkane> while we can do workarounds it's not a good solution
20:32 <iBelieve> I've got one other question. What about theming? Are we going to get any official themes/visuals, or is it just going to stay the way it is, or are is it up to us to give it a gradient background?
20:32 <ajalkane> i have not much understanding about hud in context of ubuntu phone apps... although my instinct says that when one launches hud and types something that brings up terminal it doesn't matter
20:33 <ajalkane> hud is kind of advanced feature anyway
20:33 <iBelieve> ajalkane, I suppose the HUD action should be there no matter what. Its not like someone would type terminal if they didn't want it.
20:33 <popey> You can think of hud as a replacement for menus
20:34 <iBelieve> popey, what about visuals/theme? ^^^
20:34 <ajalkane> iBelieve: i agree with that, but i don't think it's too fatal even if it's only there if advanced settings are enabled
20:34 <ajalkane> but certainly this is something that would be good to be controlled by platform level ui toolkit
20:36 <popey> Hmm.
20:37 <popey> Trying to find an app that has a good example of hud actions
20:37 <popey> mhall119: did you say that hud is broken at the moment?
20:38 <ajalkane> but sounding by popey's description, it's perfectly ok if not even preferable that hud only shows what's shown in toolbar
20:38 <ajalkane> so if you want open in terminal, you enable advanced
20:38 <popey> Well, take for example the gallery app
20:39 <popey> You have a photo open, and swipe up to get the hud, then use some enhancement tool or advanced editing process
20:39 <popey> which correlates to the "open in terminal"
20:39 <popey> it's not something the average user is going to do, but it certainly needs to be easily discoverable without typing
20:40 <iBelieve> popey, I don't have a phone, so I have no idea how the HUD on the phone works. So is the HUD a way to put advanced features that aren't accessible anywhere else?
20:40 <mhall119> popey: yeah
20:40 <popey> yes
20:40 <ajalkane> i have one question. Last meeting we had an open item that design team were thinking about how to solve
20:40 <popey> but it's more like a replacement for menus
20:40 <popey> so for example you might have a cut-down gimp app on a phone
20:41 <popey> where it makes no sense to have a toolbar cluttered with a zillion icons for every effect
20:41 <ajalkane> so where does hud get it's items from?
20:41 <ajalkane> in ubuntu phone
20:41 <popey> good question!  ☻
20:41 <popey> mhall119: do you know how hud works internally?
20:41 <iBelieve> ajalkane, I think an 'actions' property in a Page or MainView
20:42 <ajalkane> can we test that in Desktop?
20:43 <popey> Hm. Not tried on desktop.
20:43 * popey tries
20:44 <popey> not sure it's triggerable on desktop ..
20:44 <ajalkane> iBelieve: so it takes them from inside ActionSelectionopover's action property?
20:44 <popey> I'll have to look into it.
20:45 <popey> iBelieve: let me see if I can get hold of someone who knows more than me about this (not hard) and get back to you
20:45 <iBelieve> ajalkane, No, I don't think so, but I don't know. I haven't tried using the HUD at all.
20:46 <iBelieve> popey, about what? the HUD and where to put advanced features?
20:46 <popey> yes
20:46 <ajalkane> we'll need to be able to test HUD if we're to use it for advanced features
20:47 <iBelieve> popey, I've got two other questions if we've got time
20:47 <popey> feel free
20:47 <iBelieve> So is the File Manager going to get designs from the Canonical Design team like for Shorts? http://design.canonical.com/2013/07/shorts-visual-exploration/
20:48 <iBelieve> Or is it going to be un-themed, or is it up to us to colorize it?
20:48 <popey> ok, in a nutshell, no, probably not.
20:48 <popey> We picked a bunch of apps to be "core"
20:49 <mhall119> popey: there's a QML plugin for HUD that you just add Actions too with callbacks
20:49 <mhall119> I can provide an example
20:49 <popey> And the design team committed resources to make designs for 4 of them
20:49 <popey> over time we've managed to get more time from them to be able to add to that, which is why the RSS reader and music app got some design effort
20:49 <popey> but unfortunately the design team are madly busy and they're a small team.
20:49 <ajalkane> popey: but we do get icons?
20:49 <mhall119> you can use the desktop HUD to access them if you install the app and launch it from the Dash
20:50 <iBelieve> popey, so is it going to remain the way it is (just gray), or are we going to design a color scheme ourselves?
20:50 <popey> ajalkane: we're working on that too, had a conversation with them today about it
20:50 <popey> iBelieve: have you seen the calculator / clock recently?
20:50 <mhall119> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mhall119/+junk/uReadIt/view/head:/uReadIt.qml#L25 is a HUD example
20:50 <ajalkane> ie. does canonical prefer we keep it grey or do we try something more colorful?
20:50 <iBelieve> popey, yes, they look awesome!
20:51 <iBelieve> ajalkane, yes, that's what I mean
20:51 <popey> if you have time and resources to make them look like clock/calculator design that would be awesome
20:51 <popey> we really didn't expect the core apps teams to be this far along to be honest
20:51 <ajalkane> man you must be disappointed!
20:51 <popey> so if you have time to look at those and implement them in the file manager app that would be great
20:51 <popey> haha
20:51 <iBelieve> I'll let my brother have a try with coloring it, he likes UI design :)
20:52 <popey> I set my expectations low usually ☻
20:52 <popey> I'm really sorry we haven't had the opportunity to get design input on the file manger app
20:52 <popey> *manager
20:52 <iBelieve> Okay, one last question. What are we supposed to do for the Hack Day tomorrow?
20:52 <ajalkane> it's no problem, and it's understandable
20:52 <popey> but, to be honest, you've done pretty damn well without them!
20:53 <CarlosMazieri__> sorry guys, I have to leave. Thanks.
20:53 <popey> CarlosMazieri__: thanks for coming!
20:53 <ajalkane> Laters Carlos!
20:53 <CarlosMazieri__> Thank you all.
20:54 <popey> iBelieve: was there another question?
20:54 <iBelieve> popey, what are we supposed to do for tomorrow's hack day on the File Manager?
20:54 <popey> Ah! Glad you asked!
20:54 <ajalkane> me one more question too
20:54 <ajalkane> the hiding of toolbar, any input from design team
20:55 <popey> the toolbar should be hidden by default
20:55 <ajalkane> ie this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-filemanager-app/+bug/1198861
20:55 <ajalkane> what about navigation?
20:55 <ajalkane> ie. going up.
20:55 <ajalkane> it'd be ugly navigating the filesystem if going up is hidden behind swipe
20:56 <popey> I know the design guys have been thinking about how to deal with the back/up issue
20:56 <popey> it's not only a problem for file manager
20:56 <popey> I know they're pondering better design patterns for that
20:56 <iBelieve> I personally like how Android does it, with the back/up button in the top header.
20:56 <ajalkane> Aye, so no design decision yet on that
20:57 <popey> not yet.
20:57 <popey> So, hackday!
20:57 <popey> The goal is basically twofold
20:57 <popey> 1. Get things fixed in core apps
20:58 <popey> 2. get more people involved in core apps
20:58 <popey> We go out and promote the hackday and point people towards the outstanding bugs / work items in the app of the day
20:58 <popey> We don't necessarily expect you guys to lurk on irc all day.
20:59 <popey> However if you see merge mail or bug mail come in, it would be great if you could respond promptly, if you're able?
20:59 <iBelieve> I can probably have the IRC window and email open while I work on homeschool and help out when people need it.
20:59 <ajalkane> iBelieve has been so far amazing. Usually i haven't even had chance to read the mail before he's processed it! :)
21:00 <popey> Hah!
21:00 <popey> Thanks.
21:00 <popey> one final bit of admin I hadn't mentioned
21:00 <iBelieve> ajalkane, I sit at my desk working on homeschool a lot of the time so its easy to handle when I get an email :)
21:00 <ajalkane> i can't access irc tomorrow so it's good iBelieve can be there
21:01 <popey> next week I'm at OSCON, dpm is afk for the week. So mhall119 will run the meeting next week.
21:01 <popey> I will be on the Ubuntu community stand, and I'm looking forward to showing off your great work!
21:01 <ajalkane> iBelieve: that's very helpful!
21:01 <iBelieve> Well, I've finally ran out of questions to ask
21:02 <ajalkane> OSCON is a great place to show terminal and file manager :P
21:02 <popey> Yeah!
21:03 <popey> Totally top of my list to show off!
21:03 <popey> Thanks for the hard work guys, really appreciate it!
21:03 <popey> Shall we call it a night?
21:03 <ajalkane> yes, we're overtime. thanks again!
21:03 <popey> np
21:04 <iBelieve> Thanks everybody. Sorry for taking so long.
21:04 <popey> No problem at all.
21:04 <popey> nn all
21:04 <popey> #endmeeting