14:31 <cpaelzer> #startmeeting Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status
14:31 <meetingology> Meeting started at 14:31:20 UTC.  The chair is cpaelzer.  Information about MeetBot at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
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14:31 <cpaelzer> ddstreet doko didrocks sarnold jamespage - hello
14:31 <didrocks> hey
14:31 <cpaelzer> #topic Review of previous action items
14:32 <ddstreet> ack lemme grab coffee then i'll update with a new pastebin
14:32 <cpaelzer> we have pushed the definnition of the rule changes to the mailing list
14:32 <cpaelzer> I think we've made progress there
14:32 * doko hides, haven't done adsys yet
14:32 <cpaelzer> all agree on a change being worthwile
14:32 * didrocks looks at doko :)
14:32 <cpaelzer> we are just polishing the words itself
14:32 <cpaelzer> I'd suggest that ddstreet and I drive this into conclusion with what is on the mails already
14:32 <cpaelzer> any opposing voices before we decide to do to?
14:33 <sarnold> I've not seen anything in the last 11.5 hours or so..
14:33 <sarnold> did I miss any "interesting" updates to the text? :)
14:33 <cpaelzer> ddstreet: had nicer words to my suggestion to make the "commit to testing" a bit harder
14:34 <cpaelzer> and I have replied to the discussion that we might want to see test scripts/docs and a sample log
14:34 <cpaelzer> just that it is  proven to exist and not just an intent
14:34 <cpaelzer> we will get a new pastebin later this meeting and then do a vote on it
14:34 <cpaelzer> I'll go through the normal agenda now
14:34 <sarnold> oh excellent, sometimes I have great trouble spotting the actual test execution
14:34 <cpaelzer> #topic current component mismatches
14:35 <cpaelzer> #link https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches-proposed.svg
14:35 <cpaelzer> #link https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches.svg
14:35 <cpaelzer> usually I say nothing new, then sarnold tells me what I have missed
14:35 <cpaelzer> IMHO nothing new ...
14:35 <sarnold> shall we swap places today? I see nothing new
14:35 <ddstreet> ok sorry back with coffee now
14:35 <cpaelzer> no ddstreet
14:35 <cpaelzer> hehe
14:35 <cpaelzer> the rest will be just as fast today
14:35 <cpaelzer> #topic New MIRs
14:35 <cpaelzer> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/?field.searchtext=&orderby=-date_last_updated&field.status%3Alist=NEW&field.status%3Alist=CONFIRMED&assignee_option=none&field.assignee=&field.subscriber=ubuntu-mir
14:35 <cpaelzer> empty
14:35 <ddstreet> yeah going fast today!
14:36 <cpaelzer> the one incoming last week I have copleted
14:36 <cpaelzer> doko: already admited to be aware but late on adsys
14:36 <cpaelzer> #topic Incomplete bugs / questions
14:36 <cpaelzer> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/?field.searchtext=&orderby=-date_last_updated&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITH_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITHOUT_RESPONSE&field.subscriber=ubuntu-mir
14:36 <cpaelzer> nothing new here
14:36 <cpaelzer> #topic Any other business?
14:36 <cpaelzer> well, now ddstreet if you had the time to complete a new pastebin we could vote
14:36 <didrocks> nothing for me
14:37 <sarnold> nothing for me
14:37 <cpaelzer> I have a pre-discussion to do - which is about the current process forces a bit of "the first being the victim"
14:37 <ddstreet> cpaelzer ok https://pastebin.canonical.com/p/CZnNtWkGbK/
14:38 <cpaelzer> that means that e.g. the first rust package that will have to go into main will have to own 95% of the package std-libs
14:38 <ddstreet> crap that's canonical pastebin, lemme get an uubntu one
14:38 <cpaelzer> ok let me continue on that after we've hadnled the paste of ddstreet
14:38 <ddstreet> https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/tpyKDPT7r4/
14:38 <cpaelzer> I like it
14:38 <cpaelzer> I'd also extend the check template to consider that
14:39 <ddstreet> yes
14:39 <ddstreet> agreed
14:39 <cpaelzer> I'm not formally asking for votes
14:39 <cpaelzer> the time I need to check meetinology syntax will be wasted :-)
14:39 <cpaelzer> +^ from me
14:39 <cpaelzer> doko says yes as well
14:39 <cpaelzer> ddstreet:  has suggested it
14:39 <cpaelzer> sarnold:  / ddstreet - what about you ?
14:39 <ddstreet> yes +1 from me
14:39 <sarnold> sometimes autopkgtests are the thinnest of tests..
14:40 <cpaelzer> yep
14:40 <cpaelzer> sarnold: but on MIR review we look if they are Kindergarden and might reject it
14:40 <cpaelzer> this is just about the excuse of "can't be done at biuld/autopkgtest because of special HW"
14:40 <sarnold> .. while I've never seen anything remotely looking like .. lazyness? deviousness? from any of my colleagues, ever, I do slightly worry that a five-line autopkgtest might be enough to 'absolve' a team from helping to test something
14:42 <sarnold> telling just how good a test suite is is pretty difficult to do, so I don't have any awesome answers, but maybe adding a "non-trivial" around line 5 or 6 would help me :)
14:42 <cpaelzer> I think the proposal here makes the rules better
14:42 <sarnold> "substantive"?
14:42 <cpaelzer> added non-trivial
14:42 <ddstreet> it's true, but sometimes even just a basic sanity check is better than nothing, e.g. for needrestart i required some test, but all that could be done at first was pretty basic https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/needrestart/+bug/1907422
14:42 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 1907422 in needrestart (Ubuntu) "[MIR] needrestart + dependencies" [Undecided, Fix Released]
14:42 <cpaelzer> that is easy and reasonable
14:43 <didrocks> I think people can understand non-trivial and agree on the term :)
14:43 <cpaelzer> yes
14:43 <cpaelzer> I'd be ok to hit save on the wiki
14:43 <cpaelzer> we overall seem to be +1
14:43 <sarnold> excellent, thanks
14:43 <sarnold> +1 :D
14:43 <cpaelzer> all requested amends are done
14:44 <cpaelzer> thanks everyone
14:44 <cpaelzer> let me quickly complete my former thought
14:44 <ddstreet> thanks
14:44 <cpaelzer> just to plant the seed not to exhaustively discuss it today
14:44 <cpaelzer> that means that e.g. the first rust package that will have to go into main will have to own 95% of the package std-libs
14:44 <cpaelzer> usually foundations would be toolchain/stdlib
14:44 <cpaelzer> so I wonder (especially @doko) how we'd want to do that
14:45 <cpaelzer> how was it with golang
14:45 <cpaelzer> should I just talk with Matt
14:45 <cpaelzer> are there other suggestions
14:45 <cpaelzer> full-disclosure: I have a very trivial, but rust based package coming
14:46 <cpaelzer> so I'm interested to NOT own too many rusty things not close to what I'm actually trying to use/support
14:46 <cpaelzer> If there are immediate thought let me know, otherwise let this echo a bit
14:46 <cpaelzer> and in next weeks actions  section we cna check what we think about it
14:46 <didrocks> the issue with rust is that you still have a lot of breaking changes between releases, making other packages not building, correct? (my info on rust are now very rusty, like multiple years old :p)
14:47 <sarnold> yeah, even though they've got the 'semver' idea of trying to clearly label breaking changes, that's only as good as the human updating the version number, and of course some folks just plain don't care to maintain older packages..
14:48 <sarnold> I have the impression that they're better about it than the golang folks but perhaps not as good as highly-disciplined C projects
14:49 <didrocks> well, on golang, you don’t have that problem with golang itself and the stdlib (basically since the V1 and compatibility promise), the issue is then more about other libraries that don’t use semver, and so, you "only" impact a small set of reverse deps
14:49 <didrocks> but yeah, the first one who needs an update on one of those would pay the price of it as cpaelzer says
14:50 <cpaelzer> right now the package is trivial and I'm trying to keep the rust move until after 22.04
14:50 <sarnold> this README has some breadcrumbs on more painful rust crate version updates https://github.com/dtolnay/semver-trick
14:50 <cpaelzer> but then upstream switched and as soon as there is a hard dep on the new things I've a problem
14:50 <cpaelzer> thanks for the links and thoughts
14:50 <sarnold> "During the most recent libcpocalypse, Servo found themselves coordinating an upgrade of 52 libraries over a period of three months"
14:51 <cpaelzer> I'd still suggest that to some extend that is more case of "foundations gets half a head-count" instead of random-team-will-own rust
14:51 <sarnold> as much as I like rust, I'm worried that some day the whole ecosystem is going to jam into one solid ball that can't be shifted
14:51 <sarnold> cpaelzer: hah, I was thinking more "we need a dedicated golang team and a dedicated rust team"
14:51 <cpaelzer> you are not making me feel better about is sarnold
14:51 <cpaelzer> thanks for the pre-thoughts on this everyone
14:52 <sarnold> alas I don't have a line item to spend :)
14:52 <cpaelzer> I guess we can conclude for today
14:52 <cpaelzer> thanks!
14:52 <sarnold> thanks cpaelzer, all :)
14:52 * didrocks thought that sarnold was clearly committing… :)
14:52 <didrocks> thanks everyone
14:52 <cpaelzer> #endmeeting