16:03 <slangasek> #startmeeting
16:03 <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan 28 16:03:05 2016 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
16:03 <meetingology> 
16:03 <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
16:03 <slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
16:03 <slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity sil2100 robru cyphermox pitti tdaitx xnox chiluk)
16:03 <slangasek> caribou tdaitx cyphermox sil2100 pitti robru bdmurray slangasek chiluk doko xnox barry infinity
16:04 <slangasek> caribou: hi :)
16:04 <slangasek> tdaitx: ok, you're up :)
16:05 <tdaitx> # 2016-01-28
16:05 <tdaitx> * Updated OpenJDK 6 from 6u37-1.13.9 to 6u38-1.13.10 (based on IcedTea 1.13.10)
16:05 <tdaitx> * Provided OpenJDK 6u38 backports to the security team for Wily, Vivid, Trusty, and Precise
16:05 <tdaitx> * Porting Jean-Baptiste TCK scripts from JCK 6 to JCK 7
16:05 <tdaitx> * Travelling today to Brussels for FOSDEM
16:05 <tdaitx> (done)
16:05 <cyphermox> - libaudit support: shadow and openssh (bug LP: #1478087)
16:05 <cyphermox> - multipath-tools SRUs for 14.04.4:
16:05 <cyphermox> - bug LP: #1432062 - spaces in device names
16:05 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 1478087 in lightdm (Ubuntu Vivid) "Add libaudit support" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1478087
16:05 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 1432062 in multipath-tools (Ubuntu) "multipath-tools-boot: support booting without user_friendly_names on devices with spaces in identifiers" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1432062
16:05 <cyphermox> - bug LP: #1526984 - readonly bindings for multipathd -B
16:05 <cyphermox> - bug LP: #1503286 - let udev settle before mounting.
16:05 <cyphermox> - bug LP: #1496210 - defualt values for IBM 2810XIV storage
16:05 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 1526984 in multipath-tools (Ubuntu) "ISST-LTE: root mpath device unavailable after installation" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1526984
16:05 <doko> tdaitx, look up the beer location for tomorrow night
16:05 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 1503286 in multipath-tools (Ubuntu Trusty) "ISST-LTE: Boot of Ubuntu15.10 lpar fails: "mounting /dev/sdn2 on /root failed: Device or resource busy" [multipath]" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1503286
16:05 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 1496210 in multipath-tools (Ubuntu Trusty) "multipath-tools lacks the default settings for IBM 2810XIV storage system" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1496210
16:05 <cyphermox> - debugging parted device naming policy and ioctl errors (bug LP: #1536008)
16:05 <cyphermox> - reviewing MIRs: fwupd (bug LP: #1536871) - appstream (bug LP: #1538293)
16:05 <cyphermox> (done)
16:05 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 1536008 in parted (Ubuntu) "ISST-LTE: parted command shows "device-mapper: table ioctl on failed: No such device or address" error" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1536008
16:06 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 1536871 in fwupd (Ubuntu) "[MIR] fwupd" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1536871
16:06 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 1538293 in appstream (Ubuntu) "[MIR] appstream" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1538293
16:06 <pitti> oh, no sil2100
16:07 <pitti> autopkgtest:
16:07 <slangasek> indeed
16:07 <pitti> - Enable SSL on debci, fix some remaining issues in autopkgtest-retrier, and roll out self-service retry buttons
16:07 <pitti> - Refine web-based retry to check uploader permissions
16:07 <pitti> - Fix wrong kernel versions with apt pinning
16:07 <pitti> - britney: Add option for working with a lot of shared silo instances relative to Ubuntu (#1537868)
16:07 <pitti> - britney: Fix crash with NBS binaries in target release (reported by robru)
16:07 <pitti> - (ongoing) more experiments with running armhf tests through remote LXD in Scalingstack; still blocked by "locks up after some time" bug
16:07 <pitti> - (ongoing) Investigate missing proxy vars on ppc64el/trusty (#1539126)
16:07 <pitti> distro:
16:07 <pitti> - init-system-helpers: add autopkgtest
16:07 <pitti> - init-system-helpers: review our remaining delta, reduce most of it (part of that: #1539016); we can sync after xenial
16:07 <pitti> - merges: gnupg, ifupdown
16:07 <pitti> - network-manager: Fix/test/apply Bryan's patch for fixing NFS mounts (#1515446)
16:07 <pitti> - numexpr: Fix autopkgtest regression
16:07 <pitti> - udev: Fix persistent net names with d-i for trusty (#1537136)
16:07 <barry> pitti: \o/
16:07 <pitti> - Clean up usage of /var/log/udev (#1537211)
16:07 <pitti> - Review initramfs-tools, init-system-helpers, and sysvinit merges from Andy; systemd tests spotted a regression in update-rc.d, fix that
16:07 <pitti> - Discuss apport implementation for crashes in container with stgraber; we have a solution now, tests needs to be written and then we can enable this again
16:07 <pitti> END
16:07 <robru> lp:cupstream2distro
16:07 <robru> * fix traceback when abandoning silos
16:07 <robru> * fix erroneously setting published_versions excessively
16:07 <robru> * fix noisy transient errors in status setting
16:07 <robru> * set branches as merged after pushing to trunk
16:07 <robru> lp:bileto
16:07 <robru> * misc code cleanup
16:07 <robru> * disable some unused britney features
16:07 <robru> * fix when lander_signoff is automatically cleared
16:07 <robru> * add documenation/network topology chart
16:07 <robru> misc
16:07 <robru> * audit bugs & work on enabling local deployments for sprint next week
16:07 <robru> (finito)
16:08 <cyphermox> pitti: persistent net names, had we not fixed that already with the previous trusty dot release?
16:08 <tdaitx> doko: hehe, only for tomorrow? ;-)
16:08 <bdmurray> tested connection to new DSE servers (good)
16:08 <bdmurray> discussion with stub re tables from old cassandra dbs to import
16:08 <bdmurray> release upgrade testing from Trusty to Vivid
16:08 <bdmurray> searched for / consolidated duplicates of T to V upgrade failures (LP: #1534374)
16:08 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 1534374 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "unable to upgrade to 15.04 due to libstdc++6 SRU" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1534374
16:08 <pitti> cyphermox: apparently not
16:08 <bdmurray> investigation into u-r-u saying packages are unauthenticated
16:08 <bdmurray> release upgrade testing from Trusty to Wily
16:08 <bdmurray> reported LP: #1537900 re dist-upgrade failure to wily
16:08 <bdmurray> uploaded sysvinit fix for LP: #1507151 to wily-proposed
16:08 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 1507151 in sysvinit (Ubuntu Wily) "duplicate for #1537900 sysv-rc.postinst calls insserv by name, but insserv package does not provide the command in a bin directory" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1507151
16:08 <bdmurray> updated ubuntu-release-upgrader to support Trusty to Wily upgrades
16:08 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 1507151 in sysvinit (Ubuntu Wily) "sysv-rc.postinst calls insserv by name, but insserv package does not provide the command in a bin directory" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1507151
16:08 <bdmurray> W SRU verification of LP: #1537916, #1507151
16:08 <bdmurray> worked on britney sending email notifications
16:08 <bdmurray> patch piloting
16:08 <bdmurray> SRU queue processing
16:08 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 1537916 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Wily) "wily release upgrader needs to support upgrades from Trusty" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1537916
16:08 <bdmurray> installed / setup Ubuntu on new laptop
16:08 <cyphermox> pitti: (we removed biosdevname in 14.04.3 for much of the same thing)
16:08 <bdmurray> ✔ done
16:08 <xnox> tdaitx, well it's a special fosdem beer location, with extra special beers and tokens.
16:08 <slangasek> pitti: speaking of armhf and scalingstack, did you happen to see the post from hrw a few weeks ago about "how I got 32-bit arm VMs running right"?
16:09 <pitti> cyphermox: err, no, we didn't -- biosdevname is still used in d-i in latest netboot
16:09 <pitti> slangasek: uh, no, I didn't.. showmeshowmeshowme!
16:09 <cyphermox> maybe I'm mistaking it for some other release then
16:09 <pitti> slangasek: I was talking to wgrant about that and made some experiments, but there were still some hiccups
16:09 <slangasek> pitti: https://marcin.juszkiewicz.com.pl/2016/01/17/running-32-bit-arm-virtual-machine-on-aarch64-hardware/
16:09 <doko> bdmurray, any proposed action on 1534374?
16:09 <slangasek> this is on Fedora, but hopefully translates
16:10 <pitti> slangasek: oh, that way around -- I tohught you meant "boot armhf images in scalingstack"
16:10 <xnox> bug 1534374?
16:10 <xnox> bug 1534374
16:10 <ubottu> bug 1534374 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "unable to upgrade to 15.04 due to libstdc++6 SRU" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1534374
16:10 <bdmurray> doko: wait for Vivid to End of Life
16:10 <slangasek> pitti: well, but it should be bootable in scaling stack if we get the pieces figured out :)
16:10 <pitti> bdmurray: what is "DSE", OOI?
16:10 <doko> bdmurray, I like that
16:10 <bdmurray> pitti: data stack enterprise
16:11 <pitti> will vivid actually EOL? I thought touch releases are still based on vivid
16:11 <bdmurray> pitti: cassandra w/ support and bells and whistles
16:11 <sil2100> Oh crap
16:12 <slangasek> * uplift edk2 to new upstream snapshot per request of hyperscale team
16:12 <slangasek> * ppc64el triage for 14.04.4
16:12 <slangasek> * merges: at a personal 5-year low for outstanding TIL merges ;)
16:12 <slangasek> * nudging packages for proposed-migration
16:12 <slangasek> * MP review for system-image "device alias" support
16:12 <slangasek> * forward progress on P7 machine deprecation
16:12 <slangasek> * discussion about Archive Reorg changes for 16.04 (headline: build-depends won't have to go through MIR, only binary depends)
16:12 * sil2100 is obviously very late but still needs time to prepare his report
16:12 <xnox> sil2100, are you not looking forward to vivid builders getting turned off? =)
16:12 <slangasek> (done)
16:12 <chiluk> LP #1535349.  Patch created waiting on sponsorship.  Discovered an additional issue with initramfs-tools that will need to be resolved before this is fully fixed.
16:12 <chiluk> LP #1484696.  Fix Released issue closed.
16:12 <chiluk> Xenial issues with pulseaudio rejecting connections in xenial.  Daemon is still up, but not responding.  Case to be found or reported.
16:12 <chiluk> Xenial issues where chrome does not respond to dbus url open requests.
16:12 <chiluk> --done--
16:12 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 1535349 in coreutils (Ubuntu Trusty) "`df /dev/sda1` no longer reports information for /dev/sda1" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1535349
16:12 <pitti> slangasek: you can actually create an AMI with the kernel/initrd and boot the armhf cloud image -- but that fails on some libvirt issue (which wgrant already dealt with by backporting the fix) and some scalingstack config issue
16:12 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 1484696 in MAAS 1.10 "Unable to connect to: ws://<maas IP>:/MAAS/ws" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1484696
16:12 <tdaitx> sil2100: aim to go right after infinity, he is last on the list ;-)
16:13 <doko> - binutils 2.26 release
16:13 <doko> - gcc-5 ibm backports
16:13 <doko> - icedtea-web update, build for openjdk-8
16:13 <doko> - fix firefox build on arm64
16:13 <doko> - getting gcc cross packages mostly installable
16:13 <doko> - ruby2.2 update
16:13 <doko> - openjdk-6, openjdk-9 uploads
16:13 <sil2100> tdaitx: thanks
16:13 <doko> - work on python3.4 removal
16:13 <doko> - work on ruby2.1 removal
16:13 <doko> - some work on multiarchifying packages
16:13 <barry> slangasek: oh?  where's that discussion happening?
16:13 <doko> (done)
16:13 <pitti> slangasek: uh, no "main" closure on b-deps any more? that sounds a bit strange
16:13 <xnox> barry, slowly being worked on ;-)
16:14 <slangasek> barry: it's been internal discussion up to this point, I'll post on ubuntu-devel shortly about it
16:14 <barry> just curious if there's a public thread on it?
16:14 <barry> oh cool
16:14 <xnox> pitti, it's not as weird as it sounds. as vastly smaller in scope.
16:14 <slangasek> it's in the same general vein as Archive Reorg has always been - "security support over the binary dep closure, not over the source dep closure"
16:15 <pitti> xnox: "Go static linking"
16:15 <xnox> pitti, and C++ templates
16:15 <slangasek> we just found a shortcut to the implementation
16:15 <xnox> pitti, are two things to watch out for, yes.
16:15 <slangasek> pitti, xnox: Built-Using
16:15 <xnox> slangasek, oh, ok.
16:15 <slangasek> i.e. we should still be closed over Built-Using, just not over Build-Depends
16:15 <pitti> so if we render main packages unbuildable because of some universe crap nobody cares about, we make our lifes even harder
16:16 <slangasek> xnox: your turn
16:16 <slangasek> pitti: happy to make this a discussion topic later in the meeting :)
16:16 <robru> Does anybody know if it's possible to start an lxc from inside a schroot?
16:16 <xnox> robru, we are in a meeting =)
16:16 <xnox> working on fixing cloud images (borked link_in_boot)
16:16 <xnox> working on publishing updated installer guide
16:16 <xnox> fixed .ins and el torito boot files
16:16 <xnox> packaged libica
16:16 <xnox> upgraded btrfs tools, to fix bugs on ppc64el
16:16 <xnox> attended openmainframe project eu meetup in luton
16:16 <xnox> off to fosdem tomorrow
16:16 <xnox> etc.
16:16 <xnox> done
16:16 <slangasek> robru: a chroot by itself has no namespacing; so yes it should be possible as long as you have all the right mounts in the chroot
16:17 <barry> sla claws-mail: merged w/debian, uploaded 3.13.1-1.1ubuntu1 and 3.13.1-1.1ubuntu2 (the latter to fix upstream bug #3600)
16:17 <ubottu> bug 3600 in Launchpad itself "Summary field processing is handling carriage returns wrongly." [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/3600
16:17 <barry> dirtbike/pip stack: everything working in my local staging environment.  now i need to 1) release dirtbike & upload to debian; 2) upload python-progress (debian bug #812908); 3) update debian python policy for wheels; 4) update pip to 8 & upload.  it was lots of work, but it's all paying off now and will make ongoing maintenance *much* easier, and will finally get us a much more modern pip.  next up: virtualenv
16:17 <ubottu> Debian bug 812908 in wnpp "ITP: python-progress -- easy progress reporting for Python" [Wishlist,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/812908
16:17 <barry> worked on the foundations-x-python3-only blueprint.  samba-libs is still the big blocker.  reached out to the fedora porter who has made some progress, but still a lot of work to do.  this one has me the most worried.
16:17 <barry> i won't wait for the debian gnome maintainers much longer on libpeas.  if nothing happens in debian by the end of next week's sprint, i'll move forward in ubuntu.
16:17 <barry> --done--
16:18 <pitti> sil2100: no infinity, go
16:18 <sil2100> o/
16:18 <doko> barry, is there an open issue?
16:18 <sil2100> - Landing team work, silo coordination, preparing landing e-mails
16:18 <sil2100> - RTM Status meetings
16:18 <sil2100> - system-image:
16:18 <sil2100> * Coordinating the removal of manta images from official s-i
16:18 <sil2100> * Poke community s-i hosts to pick up manta once we remove those
16:18 <sil2100> * Tests tests
16:18 <barry> doko: on libpeas?
16:18 <sil2100> - Promoting devel images
16:18 <doko> yes
16:18 <sil2100> - OTA-9:
16:18 <sil2100> * Preparing release notes
16:18 <sil2100> * Releasing the images (with some complications due to management miscommunication)
16:18 <sil2100> * Investigating various reports
16:18 <sil2100> - Future OTA schedule preparation, announcements
16:18 <sil2100> - Multiple secret work involving device enablement in s-i
16:18 <barry> doko: yes, let me find it
16:18 <sil2100> - Preparing a new merge for ppp, symbols changes needed
16:18 <sil2100> - Help in preparing silo 12 landing, packaging reviews etc. (a big PD-related silo)
16:18 <sil2100> - OTA-9.5
16:18 <sil2100> * Planning and scheduling, various long discussions
16:18 <sil2100> * Add new frameworks to the seeds and store
16:19 <sil2100> - Landing-team-tools - write a helper script for getting s-i image information
16:19 <sil2100> (done)
16:19 <robru> slangasek: what are the right mounts? It has /proc and /dev/pts
16:19 <slangasek> sil2100: congrats on OTA-9
16:19 <sil2100> Thanks, some people do seem to have issues with seeing the update though, will have to look into that a bit
16:19 <sil2100> Since the phasing ended like 6-8 hours ago
16:19 <pitti> slangasek: so yes, that's using direct kernel boot much like I attempted on scalingstack; this should work in principle indeed
16:20 <sil2100> But yeah, in overall it's good :)
16:20 <barry> doko: LP: #1440504 which has a link to the debian bug
16:20 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 1440504 in libpeas (Ubuntu) "libpeas-1.0-0 depends on both libpython2.7 and libpython3.4" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1440504
16:20 <barry> doko: debian bug has patches
16:20 <slangasek> robru: I don't know all of them, but there'll be at least /sys and I think there's at least one other mount needed for the cgroups
16:20 <slangasek> (but I have no cgroups fs mount on my system currently, hmmm)
16:20 <slangasek> maybe that's old info
16:21 <caribou> o/
16:21 <caribou> sorry I'm late
16:21 <slangasek> pitti: ah, direct kernel boot; that's obviously less than perfect, but I guess it's the only option we have there
16:21 <pitti> slangasek: tmpfs on /sys/fs/cgroup ?
16:21 <pitti> slangasek: it's what the blog uses too
16:21 <slangasek> pitti: oh haha I was looking at mounts inside a chroot, so there
16:22 <slangasek> caribou: hi! anything you'd like to report?
16:22 <caribou> yep
16:22 <caribou> LP1522346 - nut merge
16:22 <caribou> LP1536904 - kdump fails on 16.04
16:22 <caribou> LP1537714 - smaller initrd for older kernels
16:22 <caribou> Sponsorship : LP1089013 - clvm
16:22 <caribou> Sponsorship : LP1248054 - dlm
16:22 <caribou> and rework of my  home network
16:22 <caribou> (done)à
16:22 <slangasek> caribou: thanks for nut, I'm glad to no longer be TIL on it ;-)
16:23 <slangasek> now that just leaves me shadow <cough>
16:23 <caribou> oh, & looks like there will be another rsyslog merge needed
16:24 <slangasek> I can also give a status update for infinity
16:24 <robru> slangasek: so is it enough to just bindmount from the host into the chroot? Where's the documentation on everything lxc needs?
16:24 <slangasek> * working on glibc 2.22 merge and reconciling locales packages with Debian
16:24 <cyphermox> slangasek: I mean to merge shadow
16:24 <slangasek> robru: I don't know; possibly somewhere near the lxc package
16:25 <slangasek> cyphermox: oh? but I'm TIL :)
16:25 <xnox> robru, try stgraber ?
16:25 <xnox> =)
16:25 <cyphermox> slangasek: ah, I can leave it to you then ;)
16:25 <slangasek> cyphermox: maybe you want to merge console-setup instead, you already have your name down on that one on merges.u.c :)
16:25 <slangasek> ok, any questions on status?
16:26 <cyphermox> slangasek: yeah, that one too
16:26 <slangasek> [TOPIC] Archive Reorg
16:27 <slangasek> since there were questions about this, let's discuss
16:27 <slangasek> pitti: you had concerns about uncared-for packages in universe
16:28 <doko> cyphermox, ohh, I started shadow, but lost track. while the debian maintainer took most patches, they are disabled, and need an update
16:28 <pitti> slangasek: well, yes; mostly about rendering more main packages FTBFS and thus making it harder to remove obsolete universe packages
16:28 <cyphermox> doko: ok.. I mentioned it because you asked me about a shadow upload to trusty :P
16:29 <pitti> but also with all the static linking madness of go, where build deps are really binary deps
16:29 <slangasek> pitti: so the reality today is that we spend a lot of effort going through the MIR process for these same packages, pulling them into main
16:29 <slangasek> and then we still don't do anything with them because they're not actually interesting, they're only needed as build-dependencies
16:30 <slangasek> I expect this to be a net reduction in work effort, because a) less MIR paperwork for things we don't care about and don't want to support, b) less packaging delta from Debian to enforce a build-time main/universe split, c) fewer packages in main overall meaning less security team work
16:30 <xnox> pitti, my thoughts were that packages that main build-depends on, will become known as "supported-build-depends" hosted mostly in universe. And then we can implement controls and/or additional policy on that. For example, uploads only by core-dev, rather than motu.
16:30 <slangasek> this btw was always part of the ArchiveReorg plan, which we first discussed back in Barcelona :)  It only foundered on some of the implementation details
16:31 <xnox> pitti, (where supported-build-depends is a seed)
16:31 <pitti> slangasek: oh yeah, that's the other thing -- we have some packages where we drop build deps to drop functionality which is only available with universe b-deps, for building plugins for example
16:31 <slangasek> xnox: fwiw I don't see any reason to restrict uploads to core-dev
16:31 <xnox> slangasek, ok.
16:31 <pitti> slangasek: you'd have the same delta if they end up being binary deps (new library), or an invisible "static linking" case when they don't become build-deps
16:31 <slangasek> pitti: static linking of go MUST be tracked already via the Built-Using field, which I mentioned above
16:31 <xnox> pitti, yeah. and e.g. especially when those plugins, will be published into universe anyway. We already do build a lot packages in main, that have some binary packages in universe.
16:31 <doko> cyphermox, feel free to take over
16:32 <slangasek> hmmm I wonder if this would actually cause python2 to drop out of main in 16.04 ;)
16:32 <cyphermox> doko: *shrugs* I will finish console-setup first, I already have it in a PPA ready to finish testing
16:33 <xnox> slangasek, i wonder if "built-using" should be included in main closure then (whereas "build-depends" will not)
16:33 <barry> slangasek: wouldn't that be wonderful? :)
16:33 <xnox> slangasek, ubuntu-desktop depends on python2 at the moment.
16:33 <slangasek> pitti: the forcing function for 16.04 is nodejs.  This is something the security team will *not* be providing support for, yet it's pulled in as a build-dependency for documentation
16:33 <slangasek> xnox: sorry, that's exactly what I meant
16:33 <xnox> slangasek, ack.
16:34 <barry> xnox: see my previous comments about samba-libs :(
16:34 <slangasek> xnox: Built-Using should be included in main (and therefore component-mismatches should report on it), Build-Depends should not
16:34 <slangasek> pitti: but there are other examples besides nodejs; maven has been one this cycle as well, with its many tentacles of java
16:35 <slangasek> yes, if the build-dependency translates to a binary dependency, we still have to deal with it
16:35 * barry will be happy to drop some debian deltas because of this
16:35 <slangasek> but the reason for ArchiveReorg is the recognition that there are many packages that are in main only because they're build-dependencies and *not* runtime dependencies (or statically-linked)
16:35 <pitti> well, I can't say I have a good feeling about this, but maybe that's just me then
16:37 <slangasek> pitti: it'll reduce the workload, trust me ;-)
16:37 <pitti> slangasek: oh, no doubts about that, I'm more afraid of piling up hidden traps
16:37 <slangasek> hmm, well
16:38 <slangasek> the kind of trap you've mentioned - bitrotting package in universe - is still something we'd be responsible for sorting out, in either case
16:38 <barry> slangasek, xnox it would be nice to have some high level archive spelunking tooling around this.  e.g. given a package, tell me the status of all its b-d and depends.  or going the other way, given a package, tell me the status of its reverses
16:38 <xnox> barry, that would be check-mir =)
16:38 <slangasek> i.e. if it's a build-dep, we're responsible for sorting out the bitrot; it doesn't matter if that package is in main like today, or if we move it to unvierse
16:38 <xnox> barry, we are still keeping main/universe components
16:39 <slangasek> xnox: well, we need to stand up a modified component-mismatches and germinate
16:39 <pitti> slangasek: right, but so far we've just dropped the build-dep of "meh, don't like that" stuff beforehand, instead of letting them creep in everywhere
16:39 <barry> xnox: something like that, probably with some enhancements
16:39 * xnox really should share my draft document with everybody.
16:39 <pitti> so this will undoubtedly work well initially; my fear is that it will make it harder down the road, as we effectively end up maintaining half of universe
16:40 <pitti> maven, haskell, what not
16:40 <xnox> but we already do
16:40 <slangasek> I disagree that this means we will be maintaining maven or haskell
16:41 <xnox> e.g. haskell transitions, java transtions it's still we do anyway.
16:41 <slangasek> except to a very basic level
16:41 <xnox> a healthy main, requires a somewhat healthy universe.
16:41 * xnox was writting down my thoughts on the subject in a google doc -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dJBtLLCppH2yt664S8G2jB_tK-iWi_D7wqaN6S4ddwI/edit#
16:42 <slangasek> xnox: have you checked past archive reorg documentation in the wiki already?
16:42 <xnox> slangasek, i've read and re-read most of it. And it is confusing.
16:42 <slangasek> \o/
16:43 <xnox> slangasek, cause parts were implemented, and other parts are not (e.g. we did permissions, but we didn't abolish components)
16:43 <xnox> slangasek, and this new "supported-build-depends" subject, i'd rather not call "archive-reorg", as the scope is smaller.
16:43 <xnox> e.g. we are keeping M.I.R. and we are keeping a show-case pinacle "main" component.
16:44 <slangasek> we were always going to be keeping an MIR process
16:44 <xnox> and kicking things out of it, that are not pinacle show-case stuff =)
16:44 <slangasek> it was just a question of whether the includer was still called "main"
16:44 <xnox> slangasek, well yes. But the whole apt preferences shananigans were nuts.
16:44 <slangasek> heh
16:45 <xnox> my plan was to generate sample new seed output, sample new components missmatches, polish the document
16:46 <xnox> and like seek further feedback
16:46 <xnox> but i guess the cat is out of the bag now.
16:46 <slangasek> don't worry, you'll get all the feedback you need ;)
16:46 <slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
16:46 <slangasek> anything else today?
16:47 <slangasek> I have a small proposal to replace the Linux kernel in main with Hurd
16:47 <barry> *hurt
16:47 <cyphermox> slangasek: pff
16:47 <cyphermox> I'd rather you pick Darwin.
16:47 <slangasek> heh
16:47 <sil2100> ;)
16:48 <caribou> nah, keep it & rewrite in Go
16:48 <xnox> slangasek, +1 on Darwin
16:48 <barry> that'll dovetail nicely with my plans to rewrite go in guile
16:48 <tdaitx> stuff I didn't have time to write: I will be off tomorrow and from Wed to Frid next week (swap day + vacation), and then the week after on Monday and Tuesday (holidays); moved from hexchat to quassel so now I can have it connected most of the time (just in time for some time off)
16:48 <xnox> barry, using an llvm compiler right?
16:48 <slangasek> Mir 3.0, now with DisplayPostscript support
16:49 <barry> xnox: of course!
16:49 <xnox> slangasek, \o/
16:49 <xnox> slangasek, requires a type-c dongle?
16:49 <cyphermox> xnox: DisplayPostscript is over CP only
16:49 <slangasek> tdaitx: oh good, enjoy the scrollback then ;)
16:50 <xnox> cyphermox, i have no idea what CP is - is that available on a mainframe?
16:50 <tdaitx> yeah, as if the email backlog is not enough ;-)
16:50 <cyphermox> xnox: I suppose. Carrier Pidgeon?
16:50 * barry fires up his old NeWS server
16:50 <slangasek> #endmeeting