15:20 <stgraber> #startmeeting DMB meeting 15:20 <meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 23 15:20:04 2015 UTC. The chair is stgraber. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. 15:20 <meetingology> 15:20 <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick 15:20 <cyphermox> 4 DMB members, as I recall 15:20 <xnox> cyphermox, cool. 15:21 <stgraber> #topic Review of previous action items 15:21 <stgraber> Laney to start an onboarding page for new dmb members 15:21 <stgraber> Laney: has that been done or should we carry this one over? 15:22 <Laney> I did it 15:22 <Laney> I mailed a link to the list asking for comments 15:22 <Laney> didn't get any 15:22 <cyphermox> can you share the link here for the minutes/ 15:22 * xnox does not recall.... =( 15:23 <Laney> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/KnowledgeBase 15:23 * cyphermox searches 15:23 <stgraber> oh yeah, just found the e-mail 15:23 <Laney> Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 17:52:51 +0100 15:23 <stgraber> DMB members who didn't consent to fill in feedback to Noskcaj 15:26 * xnox ducks 15:26 <stgraber> I think we need to keep this one as I'm not seeing evidence that this happened :) 15:26 <cyphermox> yes 15:26 <stgraber> #topic Confirm whether we grant membership for uploaders by default 15:26 <xnox> last meeting we converged to the following: if one wants membership one should apply as contributing developer, motu, or core-dev. 15:27 <xnox> per-package(set) uploaders do not assume membership. 15:27 <Laney> erm 15:27 <cyphermox> Laney: we had some discussion about this at the last meeting but it seemed like we couldn't quite get to an agreement 15:27 <Laney> you decided to change the criteria? 15:27 <xnox> if one wants PPU + membership, one should explicitely apply for PPU+contributing developer. 15:27 <Laney> oh geez 15:27 <xnox> Laney, yeah, this is summary of a (new) opinion, some board members had. 15:28 <xnox> i.e. myself and (micahg?!) can't remember now. 15:28 <cyphermox> could we perhaps move ahead to voting on this proposition, or decide to amend it? 15:28 <stgraber> yeah, we can vote but by the sounds of it, it won't pass 15:29 <cyphermox> which won't pass? ;) 15:29 <stgraber> we're only 4 around, if we don't get 4 +1s it'll fail 15:29 <cyphermox> right 15:29 <xnox> we can vote as is. I will vote -1 on "grant membership for uploaders by default". And say that there is already mechanism for that -> contributing developer. 15:29 <xnox> i can be convinced that i'm being illogical =) 15:29 <stgraber> the proposal on the agenda is to by default assume that PPU means membership unless we decide otherwise 15:29 <cyphermox> well, then it needs to be amended, and we probably should take this to email instead so everyone can bring up their points 15:29 <xnox> and that e.g. contributing member -> is membership without any upload rights, and that membership is needed for uploading anything. 15:30 <Laney> It's too much of a burden to assume that people will understand this, and doesn't make sense to make the DMB explicitly make this determination fro every application 15:30 <Laney> whatever 15:30 <cyphermox> doesn't it kind of involve sustained contributions at least to even be considered for PPU? 15:30 <stgraber> I agree with Laney, it's way easier for us to determine when someone shouldn't be getting membership and make it clear then rather than require EVERYONE to request both 15:31 <cyphermox> in which case Laney's proposition is simple and straightforward 15:31 <xnox> oh, if we grant it when people are eligble, that makes sense. 15:32 <xnox> and it's up to us to be diligent, and say "yeah cool you can upload but no membership yet, come back for it" that sounds sensible. 15:32 <cyphermox> xnox: sounds to me like that is what Laney means :) 15:32 <xnox> i guess at each PPU grant, we do a second mini-vote whether or not to grant membership too? 15:32 <Laney> No 15:32 <xnox> why would we do that, instead of granting contributing developer? 15:33 <cyphermox> I wouldn't even bother 15:33 <Laney> You just have the vote in the negative case 15:33 <Laney> in most cases it is implied 15:33 <xnox> to PPUs, when PPUs apply, and are eligible for membership? 15:33 <Laney> it really hardly ever comes up in practie 15:33 <Laney> practice 15:33 <Laney> so it's not sensible to put the burden on the normal case 15:33 <xnox> "This does not happen automatically - they must be added to the ~ubuntu-dev team." -> can we not add people to contributing developer instead? 15:34 * xnox ponders if we should move on to email. 15:34 <Laney> ucd isn't in ubuntu-dev 15:36 <Laney> I'm only happy moving to email if people will actually reply. :) 15:36 <stgraber> ubuntu-dev is only for Ubuntu members who have upload rights, so being in UCD doesn't get you that 15:36 <xnox> stgraber, ack. 15:36 <Laney> it gets you bug control and other teams that UCD doesn't 15:37 <Laney> because UCD is just membership 15:37 <xnox> i see. 15:37 <stgraber> we can also vote for it now and then you can get the rest of the members to vote on the list, may be enough to have this pass 15:38 <Laney> OK 15:38 <stgraber> #vote Do we grant Ubuntu membership by default for PPUs (see https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2015-August/000815.html)? 15:38 <meetingology> Please vote on: Do we grant Ubuntu membership by default for PPUs (see https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2015-August/000815.html)? 15:38 <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname) 15:38 <xnox> +1 15:38 <meetingology> +1 received from xnox 15:38 <stgraber> +1 15:38 <meetingology> +1 received from stgraber 15:38 <cyphermox> +1 15:38 <meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox 15:38 <Laney> +1 15:38 <meetingology> +1 received from Laney 15:38 <Laney> nice 15:38 <stgraber> #endvote 15:38 <meetingology> Voting ended on: Do we grant Ubuntu membership by default for PPUs (see https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2015-August/000815.html)? 15:38 <meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0 15:38 <meetingology> Motion carried 15:38 <stgraber> there, done :) 15:39 <stgraber> Laney: is there any documentation we need updating? 15:39 <Laney> well, it's the status quo, so no 15:39 <Laney> in theory 15:39 <xnox> stgraber, i guess XXX needs removal from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/KnowledgeBase under teams to add uploaders to 15:39 <Laney> ah 15:39 <Laney> I was just going to say that I should add this somewhere 15:40 <Laney> OK let me edit that 15:40 <stgraber> cool 15:40 <stgraber> #topic Package Set/Per Package Uploader Applications 15:40 <Laney> that ubuntu-uploaders sentence is utter lies 15:40 * Laney fixes that too 15:41 <stgraber> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2015-October/000856.html 15:42 <stgraber> Laney: ok, so this item is just about adding a new package set for the ubuntu qt stuff and adding a few more packages to the existing qt set? 15:43 <stgraber> qt5 set today: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/packagesets/xenial/qt5 15:43 <Laney> I think so 15:43 <Laney> because they don't fit the description there 15:44 <stgraber> ok, should we just vote on this then, seems pretty straightforward to me 15:44 <Laney> Probably, just want to know what a Qt package is 15:44 <Laney> anything which build-depends on qt at all? 15:45 <cyphermox> seems wrong 15:45 * xnox 'd just update qt5 packageset description to include all qt5* base stuff, irrespective of origin. 15:45 <cyphermox> plus it probably should be unity8-desktop as a name or something to the effect that it's unity8 things, not necessarily qt 15:45 <stgraber> proposed description is: 15:45 <stgraber> Qt packages used by Ubuntu not originating from the 15:45 <stgraber> upstream Qt project but using Qt private headers 15:46 <cyphermox> right 15:46 <stgraber> so not all rdepends of qt, more like tight version rdepends (due to private symbols) 15:46 <xnox> sounds good. and just stick that as ".. and" into qt5 package set, and update the lot. 15:46 <stgraber> proposed set of package is: 15:46 <stgraber> appmenu-qt5 ciborium fcitx-qt5 gsettings-qt maliit-framework oxide-qt 15:46 <stgraber> qtmir qtmir-gles qtubuntu qtubuntu-gles qtvideo-node ubuntu-ui-toolkit 15:46 <stgraber> ubuntu-ui-toolkit-gles unity8 webbrowser-app 15:46 <cyphermox> except I can see more people wanting to upload these packages in the future, and things being added that might not be qt5 15:47 <xnox> existing uploaders know how to upload those, as far as I remember. Or have been co-operating with "private ubuntu qt5" uploads in the past (~kubuntu-dev) 15:47 <cyphermox> on top of that, all these packages usually go through the CI train, not usually direct uploads 15:48 <cyphermox> (or, at least most of them, possibly exception being fcitx-qt5 and gsettings-qt 15:48 * xnox sides at making timo core-dev, and stop adding new qt packagesets or packages, and then timo can be go to person for ci landing of those components ;-) 15:48 <stgraber> the proposed set name and description don't specifically mention qt5, just says ubuntu specific stuff using private qt symbols, so typically ubuntu sdk and related libs, with unity8 being a special one 15:49 <cyphermox> stgraber: there's lots of stuff surrounding that current set that are make with go, and so don't have any qt symbols 15:49 <cyphermox> or at least, that was my understanding 15:50 <cyphermox> I mostly just don't like the qt/using qt headers being a criteria for a packageset, I guess 15:50 <sil2100> Mirv wants to try for core-dev, but said he'll do it after I become a core-dev first 15:50 <sil2100> Soooo... just saying.. you know... 15:50 <sil2100> ;) 15:50 <cyphermox> vote or not, and then move on? 15:50 <xnox> sil2100, i shall not be peer pressured. 15:51 * Laney watches money slide under the table 15:51 <sil2100> I'm not implying anything! My intentions are as clear as mountain water 15:51 * sil2100 goes quiet now 15:52 <Laney> I'm happy to vote this 15:52 <stgraber> cyphermox: the static go stuff would never be in that set because if statically built (instead of using cgo), you won't need rebuild/changing when private symbols change in the archive, since it bundles its own copy 15:52 <stgraber> #vote Create a new ubuntu-qt-packages packageset with description "Qt packages used by Ubuntu not originating from the upstream Qt project but using Qt private headers" 15:52 <meetingology> Please vote on: Create a new ubuntu-qt-packages packageset with description "Qt packages used by Ubuntu not originating from the upstream Qt project but using Qt private headers" 15:52 <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname) 15:52 <cyphermox> stgraber: I'm saying by this that it feels to specific 15:52 <stgraber> +1 15:52 <meetingology> +1 received from stgraber 15:52 <Laney> I'd be happy to amend this by mail 15:52 <Laney> it's not the best 15:52 <Laney> +1 15:52 <meetingology> +1 received from Laney 15:52 <cyphermox> +0. seems to specific to me, but I won't block if everyone agrees already. 15:52 <meetingology> +0. seems to specific to me, but I won't block if everyone agrees already. received from cyphermox 15:52 <stgraber> cyphermox: I like too specific, it's easier to make it less specific than more specific later :) 15:53 <xnox> +1 15:53 <meetingology> +1 received from xnox 15:53 <cyphermox> I'd rather fewer random packagesets for random things 15:53 <stgraber> #endvote 15:53 <meetingology> Voting ended on: Create a new ubuntu-qt-packages packageset with description "Qt packages used by Ubuntu not originating from the upstream Qt project but using Qt private headers" 15:53 <meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1 15:53 <meetingology> Motion carried 15:53 <cyphermox> ^ motion carried 15:53 <Laney> false 15:53 <stgraber> yeah, that's wrong 15:53 <Laney> deferred to email 15:53 <xnox> true. 15:53 <cyphermox> no, consider it fine for me tbh 15:53 <Laney> or next meeting 15:53 <Laney> then you need to vote +1 :P 15:54 <cyphermox> did you not read what was next to +0? ;) 15:54 <xnox> we have quorum, and we only need to have possitive outcome. 15:54 <cyphermox> let's move on 15:54 <Laney> ffs 15:54 <stgraber> we need quorum and 4 +1s to have a motion pass, this wasn't the case here 15:55 <stgraber> so if cyphermox feels like +1ing instead, we can re-vote, otherwise this is moving to ML to get the remaining votes 15:55 <cyphermox> arf 15:55 <cyphermox> sure, let's quickly revote 15:55 <stgraber> #vote Create a new ubuntu-qt-packages packageset with description "Qt packages used by Ubuntu not originating from the upstream Qt project but using Qt private headers" 15:55 <meetingology> Please vote on: Create a new ubuntu-qt-packages packageset with description "Qt packages used by Ubuntu not originating from the upstream Qt project but using Qt private headers" 15:55 <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname) 15:55 <stgraber> +1 15:55 <meetingology> +1 received from stgraber 15:55 <cyphermox> +1 15:55 <meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox 15:55 <xnox> +1 15:55 <meetingology> +1 received from xnox 15:55 <Laney> +1 15:55 <meetingology> +1 received from Laney 15:56 <Laney> haha 15:56 <stgraber> #endvote 15:56 <meetingology> Voting ended on: Create a new ubuntu-qt-packages packageset with description "Qt packages used by Ubuntu not originating from the upstream Qt project but using Qt private headers" 15:56 <meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0 15:56 <meetingology> Motion carried 15:56 <Laney> thanks! 15:56 <stgraber> there we go :) 15:56 <cyphermox> thar. 15:56 <stgraber> #action stgraber to implement changes listed in https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2015-October/000856.html 15:56 * meetingology stgraber to implement changes listed in https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2015-October/000856.html 15:56 <stgraber> #topic Ubuntu Contributing Developer Applications 15:56 <stgraber> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/chiluk 15:56 <stgraber> chiluk: still around? 15:57 <chiluk> yes.. 15:57 <stgraber> can you give us a quick intro on who you are and what you've been doing? 15:57 <cyphermox> I know chiluk, he definitely did not bribe me to +1. 15:57 <chiluk> hah. 15:57 <xnox> I know chiluk, he definitely did not bribe me to +1. 15:57 <chiluk> Alright, well I work for Canonical on sustaining old releases. 15:58 <chiluk> mostly for paying customers, but I do my best to get out on public launchpad as often as I can. 15:58 <chiluk> as such my work is very scatter-brained and unfocussed. 15:58 <chiluk> I'm not requesting PPU for that reason. 15:58 <stgraber> sounds like everyone's ready to vote already so let's do it then :) 15:59 <chiluk> there are very few packages that I will ever touch twice. 15:59 <chiluk> hah. 15:59 <stgraber> #startvote UCD for chiluk 15:59 <chiluk> alright guys. 15:59 <stgraber> #vote UCD for chiluk 15:59 <meetingology> Please vote on: UCD for chiluk 15:59 <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname) 15:59 <stgraber> +1 15:59 <meetingology> +1 received from stgraber 15:59 <cyphermox> +1 15:59 <meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox 15:59 <Laney> +! 15:59 <Laney> 1!! 15:59 <Laney> +1 15:59 <meetingology> +1 received from Laney 15:59 <xnox> +1 15:59 <meetingology> +1 received from xnox 15:59 <Laney> PLUS BANG 15:59 <chiluk> someone should -1 for infinity 15:59 <stgraber> #endvote 15:59 <meetingology> Voting ended on: UCD for chiluk 15:59 <meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0 15:59 <meetingology> Motion carried 15:59 <sil2100> Man, I should have brought screwdrivers with me to the sprint too... 15:59 <chiluk> sil2100: why when, I live in town. 16:00 <cyphermox> chiluk: my only request would be for you to fix https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/coreutils/8.21-1ubuntu5.2 16:00 <stgraber> oh, is that how you bribed cyphermox? :) 16:00 <chiluk> cyphermox, yeah I'm on that. 16:00 <chiluk> cyphermox, the test never ran before my upload. 16:00 <cyphermox> stgraber: nah, there was no alcohol, just tools. 16:00 <chiluk> now it's being run and failing 16:00 <xnox> chiluk, fyi have you seen https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/coreutils/8.21-1ubuntu5.2 ? =) 16:00 <chiluk> although it only fails ont eh buildds. 16:01 <chiluk> yeah I've been looking into it. 16:01 <xnox> rightyoh. 16:01 <chiluk> the test that fails was never getting run before because df couldn't read the mount table, and would thus skip the test. 16:01 <stgraber> #topic Ubuntu Core Developer application for Łukasz Zemczak 16:01 <chiluk> so it works better. 16:01 <xnox> chiluk, "Kernel version: Linux lgw01-46 3.19.0-33-generic #38~14.04.1-Ubuntu SMP Fri Nov 6 18:17:28 UTC 2015 x86_64" =) 16:01 <stgraber> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LukaszZemczak/CoreDeveloperApplication 16:01 <sil2100> o/ 16:01 <stgraber> good, you're still around :) 16:02 * chiluk goes to figure out how to get ubuntu business cards for conferences. 16:02 <stgraber> sil2100: can you introduce yourself, what you're working on and why you'd like to become a core developer? 16:02 <sil2100> Sure! 16:03 <sil2100> I'm Łukasz, working for Canonical for quite a while, currently the semi release-manager for Ubuntu Touch, one of the co-maintainers of the infameous CI Train and current co-maintainer of system-image 16:03 <sil2100> I'm also a MOTU since over a year 16:04 <sil2100> Been doing two +1 maintenance sessions, with the most recent one a bit more fruitful than the first 16:05 <sil2100> I have worked a bit more on main packages recently and decided to re-apply - becoming a core-dev would make my development work much easier, not only from the CI Train side, but also during my patch-pilot and +1 maintenance sessions 16:06 <sil2100> I'm also the maintainer of the ubuntu-touch seeds and even though the package itself is in universe, the owner of the branches is ubuntu-core-dev, so well ;) I would like to stop bothering people all the time 16:07 <sil2100> And I think that's basically it, becoming a core-dev is my long-standing goal 16:08 <Laney> so this isn't your first application 16:08 <Laney> what's changed since last time? :) 16:08 <sil2100> No, last time I applied I basically didn't have too much main experience as during all my piloting sessions and archive work I was concentrating on universe, the place where I had power 16:08 <Mirv> (thanks for the Qt PPU additions. with those I'd manage through Qt 5.5 before applying for core-dev) 16:09 <sil2100> So since that time I started actually working on main packages as advised by xnox, helping out in the wily FTBFS from the test-rebuilds right before release 16:09 * xnox notices abi transitions work from sil as well 16:09 <sil2100> Then I wanted to help out and resolve the ocaml transition, but sadly most of the packages there were in universe 16:10 <sil2100> And just now noticed that I have some leftovers in NBS from the transition, ouch! But resolving those now inbetween things 16:10 <xnox> sil2100, which tools did you use to assist you with ocaml transition? 16:11 <sil2100> xnox: reverse-depends, a xenial-proposed chroot, I used chdist for checking installability on different platforms (at first I used the porterboxes, but chdist was faster) 16:11 <xnox> sil2100, any websites at all? e.g. launchpad...? 16:11 <sil2100> I created a few scripts that were helping me in the no-change rebuilds, checking for installability problems first and then outputting dependencies etc. 16:12 <sil2100> xnox: used launchpad too, but my scripts were fetching the most required information using LP API 16:12 <sil2100> Like which archs FTBFS, what binaries are provided by the packages 16:13 <sil2100> At first I was checking those manually through launchpad, but seeing ~100 packages in the transition, I got tired and wrote some stupid-helpers 16:13 <xnox> sil2100, have you used transition tracker at all? 16:13 <sil2100> Of course 16:14 <xnox> cool. 16:14 <sil2100> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/transitions/html/ocaml.html 16:14 <sil2100> That was the main page I was using for the transition 16:14 <sil2100> (e.g. which packages needed my attention) 16:17 <sil2100> I see that something causes now ocaml to have installability issues, will look at that later 16:17 <Laney> any more? 16:19 <stgraber> #vote Ubuntu Core Developer membership for sil2100 16:19 <meetingology> Please vote on: Ubuntu Core Developer membership for sil2100 16:19 <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname) 16:21 <xnox> +1 16:21 <meetingology> +1 received from xnox 16:21 <cyphermox> +1 16:21 <meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox 16:21 <Laney> +1 16:21 <meetingology> +1 received from Laney 16:21 <stgraber> +1 16:21 <meetingology> +1 received from stgraber 16:21 <stgraber> #endvote 16:21 <meetingology> Voting ended on: Ubuntu Core Developer membership for sil2100 16:21 <meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0 16:21 <meetingology> Motion carried 16:21 <sil2100> \o/ Thank you! 16:22 <Na3iL> congrats sil2100 :) 16:22 <Mirv> congrats sil2100! 16:22 <cyphermox> thanks sil2100 16:23 <cyphermox> I hope that doesn't mean I hear less from you for citrain silo reviews ;) 16:23 <sil2100> hah ;) 16:24 <sil2100> Interesting, all ocaml binaries look installable here, maybe I'll have to dig a bit deeper 16:24 * xnox /o\ what have we done. anway, i shall have sil2100 on speed dial for any ci train issues =) 16:24 <sil2100> But I noticed that the ben is not to be trusted in 100% 16:25 <stgraber> #topic Select a chair for the next meeting (following alphabetical order of first names) 16:25 <sil2100> No worries! I'll get bad karma if I publish too many bad packages through the train 16:25 <stgraber> that will be micahg, I'll move my name last in the list 16:25 * sil2100 only likes good karma 16:25 <stgraber> #topic AOB 16:25 <stgraber> anything? 16:26 <cyphermox> I don't know 16:26 <stgraber> I've already done the packageset changes we agreed on, added chiluk to UCD and sil2100 to core-dev, so we should be good action-wise. 16:26 <sil2100> stgraber: thanks! 16:26 <cyphermox> I responded to Timo by email to say the pkgset was done 16:26 <stgraber> thanks! 16:27 <chiluk> thanks stgraber, cyphermox, Laney, xnox 16:27 <cyphermox> chiluk: looking forward to sponsoring requests from you to eventually +1 a core-dev application 16:28 <chiluk> that's the goal. 16:28 <stgraber> agenda updated too 16:29 <Laney> thanks 16:29 <stgraber> and replied to the applications saying they've been approved and Cced the news-team 16:29 <stgraber> so I think we're all done 16:29 <stgraber> #endmeeting