17:01 <mhall119> #startmeeting CC catchup with the desktop team and DMB
17:01 <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jun  4 17:01:00 2015 UTC.  The chair is mhall119. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
17:01 <meetingology> 
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17:01 <mhall119> #chair cprofitt dholbach pleia2
17:01 <meetingology> Current chairs: cprofitt dholbach mhall119 pleia2
17:01 <sabdfl> hello all
17:01 <dholbach> #topic Catch up with the Desktop Team
17:01 <willcooke> hi sabdfl
17:01 <mhall119> hi willcooke and seb128, anyone else here for the desktop team?
17:01 <dholbach> hey seb128 and willcooke - how are things?
17:01 <willcooke> mhall119, dholbach - just us I think
17:01 <seb128> hey there! things are good :-)
17:02 <mhall119> right, so it's exciting times for the desktop team isn't it? :)
17:02 <sabdfl> loving the steady stream of news
17:02 <seb128> mhall119, it's always exciting time in some ways ;-)
17:02 <dholbach> How was the feedback from the last release? Did you get many bug reports?
17:03 <willcooke> Release was solid
17:03 <willcooke> Really impressive considering the under-the-hood changes
17:03 <cprofitt> how is the convergence going? What exciting things should we expect on 15.10 and 16.04?
17:03 <mhall119> willcooke: you mean systemd?
17:03 <seb128> feedback was mostly good, we got reports, as always, but not too many
17:03 <willcooke> mhall119, ya
17:04 <mhall119> willcooke: I didn't notice any difference, so very well done to all on that
17:04 <willcooke> kudos to pitti and didrocks
17:04 <willcooke> cprofitt, 15.10 will see a Snappy based Desktop Next
17:04 <willcooke> ready for testing and playing
17:04 <willcooke> Good news is that the image is now booting :)
17:04 <cprofitt> The only issue I have had so far is the trash launcher opening up an extra file window. More annoying than anything critical. I would agree it was a good launch.
17:04 <mhall119> willcooke: what is the play for making that available to people?
17:05 <mhall119> will it be an ISO, a disk image, a VM image?
17:06 <willcooke> mhall119, it'll be an "image" to start with but there is installer work currently being looked at by the Snappy team
17:06 <mhall119> awesome
17:06 <dholbach> Did you get offers of help for the brave new desktop world? Or new folks who hangout in the channel?
17:07 <mhall119> so everyone knows, I'll be working with will's team this cycle in my capacity on the Community Team to get more information out to users who wants to try out, test, and contribute to Unity 8 and snappy desktop
17:07 <seb128> dholbach, not really no
17:08 <seb128> I think it's a bit too new still
17:08 <dholbach> do you think there's enough contributors could do to help out?
17:08 <seb128> we are likely to get more people once things get going
17:08 <cprofitt> mhall119: just to be clear is there 'normal' desktop and 'snappy' desktop?
17:08 <dholbach> ok..... still a bit too bleeding edge?
17:08 <mhall119> cprofitt: there will be both yes
17:08 <mhall119> IIRC, the "snappy" desktop will only be Mir and Unity 8
17:08 <willcooke> correct
17:08 <willcooke> But there are also interesting things going on in the "normal" desktop for U8 and Mir too...
17:08 <seb128> dholbach, yeah, I guess so
17:08 <mhall119> cprofitt: though don't get too used to calling the previous way of doing things "normal" :)
17:08 <willcooke> You can run a U8 session on your desktop
17:09 <mhall119> willcooke: you mean the LXC packages?
17:09 <willcooke> and also there is work going on to allow Mir to run in a special way on top of X org,
17:09 <willcooke> so for example
17:09 <dholbach> seb128, let us know when you feel it's the right time to reach out to people - I know that many are waiting for the cool new thing - it'd be great if we could involve some of them :)
17:09 <willcooke> If you're developing an app with Mir, you'll be able to test it our there on your U7/Xorg desktop with out changing sessions
17:09 <cprofitt> +1 dholbach yes, the desktop side of the house is waiting for the next cool thing.
17:10 <seb128> dholbach, yeah
17:10 <cprofitt> Not many of us have devices to help with 'touch'.
17:10 <dholbach> cool
17:10 <mhall119> willcooke: so once people have a running instance of Mir/Unity8 from whatever way they get it running, what can they do to help make the snappy desktop better for 15.10?
17:11 <willcooke> mhall119, besides testing and bug reports - I'd like to see folk using the new Snappy tools and starting to get a good catalogue of apps going
17:12 <sabdfl> touch devices are rare now, but will become more widespread with win8 / win10
17:12 <sabdfl> has there been any discussion of installing snappy apps on a deb system?
17:13 <willcooke> some, but not loads yet.  We need to sort out the confinement story, and X org makes that hard.
17:14 <willcooke> We could get a container working for that though I expect
17:15 <mhall119> willcooke: so far all of our snappy packaging docs have been around cloud/IoT apps, what do we have for packaging apps written with the Ubuntu SDK, and is it ready to publish on developer.u.c?
17:16 <willcooke> mhall119, didrocks is working on that this cycle.  If he hasn't already contacted you about it, he will be soon
17:16 <mhall119> perfect, thanks
17:16 <dholbach> nice :-)
17:16 <willcooke> He was at the SDK sprint this week, so he's full of good ideas :)
17:17 <dholbach> cool, we should have a chat next week :)
17:17 <mhall119> willcooke: do you have a short list of apps targeted for default inclusion in snappy desktop? I know we brainstormed a big list in London
17:17 <willcooke> At the moment it looks like:
17:18 <mhall119> and is that something community folks can get involved in helping with now, or are there things blocking that work currently?
17:18 <willcooke> Gedit, Chromium, Libreoffice, Gimp, xchat
17:18 <willcooke> plus all the default apps from the phone
17:18 <willcooke> for the first release they will be part of the image
17:18 <willcooke> but we want to start moving them out in to snaps asap
17:19 <dholbach> good timing that the core apps folks are working on convergence features now :-)
17:19 <willcooke> so once the docs are there, and Xmir is in the archive for legacy apps - have at it
17:19 <mhall119> dholbach: almost like it was planned that way :)
17:19 <willcooke> dholbach, how about that!  It's almost like we planned it ;)
17:19 <willcooke> ha
17:19 <dholbach> :)
17:20 <mhall119> right, switching gears a bit and going back to Unity 7, I saw that Wily has started syncing with Debian and getting the new Gnome stuff, what's the workload expected there and how can people help?
17:20 <willcooke> oh, @ default apps - plus the SDK of course
17:20 <willcooke> mhall119, good question, so...
17:21 <willcooke> we are working on ways to reduce our maintenance overhead every time we sync with upstream Gnome
17:21 <willcooke> because it is a fair whack of work
17:21 <dholbach> I saw a couple of folks helping out with merges and uploads of new versions from gnome
17:22 <willcooke> yeah, we've got a some really excellent help there, especially from the Ubuntu Gnome team
17:22 <dholbach> which version of gnome are we going to use this cycle? are we still blocked where some gnome modules can't be updated?
17:22 <mhall119> I was just going to ask if they were able to help
17:22 <mhall119> how about the MATE team?
17:22 <willcooke> dholbach, 3.16
17:22 <willcooke> dont think we're blocked, seb128?
17:23 <seb128> we are not
17:23 <mhall119> always good news to hear
17:23 <dholbach> one thing which came up in the past was how things worked with other flavours such as xubuntu and ubuntu gnome - are you aware of any current blockers for them?
17:23 <willcooke> mhall119, @ MATE, I think they are using a much earlier version
17:23 <seb128> dholbach, no, I don't think so
17:23 <willcooke> Shouldnt be any blockers for xubuntu
17:24 <seb128> we just updated gtk to 3.16 today
17:24 <mhall119> pleia2: ^^
17:24 <willcooke> and we're working closely with U.Gnome
17:24 <dholbach> cool... I'm happy that this is largely untangled <3
17:24 <willcooke> so should be smoothish sailing there
17:24 <willcooke> plus we've been doing this for a while now, so the guys have got a good process in place
17:25 <dholbach> is there anything where the desktop team could need some help with?
17:25 <sabdfl> how are we doing w.r.t. collaboration and coordination around Qt needs for KDE and U8?
17:25 <sabdfl> pitchforks and torches aside :)
17:26 * sabdfl updates to gtk 3.16...
17:26 <seb128> Qt coordination has been good so far, everybody benefits from getting newer versions and understands that we need to do proper testing and ensure there are no regressions before updating
17:26 <seb128> so there are been not many frictions so far
17:26 <pleia2> mhall119: I don't know about any of that
17:27 <willcooke> dholbach, there might be some interesting work to do with us on the Gtk Mir backend and the Chromium Mir backend
17:27 <sabdfl> ok
17:27 <willcooke> we're working on it, but it's a big and interesting problem to solve
17:27 <sabdfl> glad to hear that
17:27 <mhall119> seb128: I recall Kubuntu doing a lot of work to get Qt packages building and CI processes in place for Debian, are we taking advantage of that?
17:27 <dholbach> seb128, do you know if the KDE folks also have some regression tests in the archive?
17:28 <seb128> mhall119, the more testing is done the better
17:28 <seb128> so yeah, them doing extra CI/testing is welcome and useful
17:28 <seb128> dholbach, unsure how much they have
17:28 <dholbach> ok
17:29 <dholbach> Mirv would probably know
17:29 <mhall119> seb128: I mean are we running the same tests after we import to our archives?
17:29 <seb128> I guess so
17:29 <mhall119> and contributing fixes or additional tests back to the debian setup
17:29 <seb128> mhall119, autopkg tests shipped with the package yes
17:31 <mhall119> alright, we're halfway through our hour, are there any other questions for the Desktop team?
17:31 <pleia2> I'm enjoying the new weekly meeting summary emails :)
17:31 <pleia2> so thanks for doing those now
17:31 <dholbach> I think I'm done - thanks a lot Desktop Team! :-)
17:31 <seb128> thanks!
17:31 <cprofitt> yes, thank you desktop team.
17:31 <mhall119> yes, it's great to see those on the mailing lists
17:32 <willcooke> pleia2, welcome, and I'll cc the news team too
17:32 <pleia2> willcooke: appreciated
17:32 <mhall119> #topic Catch up with the Developer Membership Board
17:32 <cyphermox> o/
17:32 <pleia2> 06:01:30 < xnox> pleia2: heya, i will not be able to make a catchup.
17:32 <pleia2> 06:02:40 < xnox> pleia2: w.r.t. to current developers there are no active developers that i know off, that have upload rights, yet would somehow fail dmb (... or at least fail to get +1 from) requirements for their upload rights.
17:32 <pleia2> 06:03:04 < xnox> pleia2: there has been little applications lately, but i guess it's because we were frozen.
17:32 <pleia2> ^^ got that earlier
17:33 <micahg> o/
17:33 <mhall119> bdmurray: Laney micahg ScottK stgraber anyone here for the CC catchup?
17:33 <mhall119> hey micahg
17:33 <dholbach> hey hey
17:33 <micahg> hi mhall119
17:33 <dholbach> how are yo all doing?
17:34 <cyphermox> yep, I'm here too
17:34 <cyphermox> dholbach: doing alright!
17:34 <mhall119> cyphermox: ah,sorry, I knew I forgot someone
17:34 <cyphermox> no worries.
17:35 <mhall119> so how many developer applications have you had over the last cycle?
17:35 <mhall119> rough estimate is fine
17:35 <micahg> not too many
17:35 <cyphermox> oh my. micahg, do you know of a number? there weren't any since I got on the DMB
17:35 <micahg> less than a dozen I think
17:35 <micahg> probably much less...
17:36 <mhall119> micahg: and what areas of the project have those been coming from?
17:36 <micahg> well, Xubuntu has had some interest
17:37 <micahg> oh, hrm, that might have been before this last cycle
17:37 <mhall119> still good to know :)
17:37 <dholbach> I could imagine that people in smaller communities have a bit more of encouraging each other to apply for upload rights.
17:38 <dholbach> To some I guess it's still somewhat daunting... or just don't think of applying and always ask for sponsorship of their uploads.
17:38 <micahg> a little interest from cloud team and one for Firefox as well apparently...
17:38 <mhall119> micahg: how about from Ubuntu Gnome or MATE flavors?
17:38 <micahg> Ubuntu GNOME has at least one uploader from several cycles back, no one from MATE has applied yet
17:39 <mhall119> is anyone asking people who frequently ask for and get sponsorships to apply?
17:39 <mhall119> dholbach: do we have any metrics that will show which people we should reach out to?
17:40 <dholbach> the developer advisory team unfortunately had to close down because everyone was busy with other things
17:40 <cyphermox> I've recommended Martin Wimpress to apply from the MATE team, since I've sponsored a few uploads for him
17:40 <mhall119> cyphermox: what was his reaction to that?
17:41 <dholbach> but maybe we could generally just ask on the mailing list and see who feels like they got a lot sponsored and have a (maybe private?) chat with them...
17:41 <cyphermox> as I recall (it was before christmas), he was interested but wanted to wait to get the flavor built with official isos, I should reach out again and possibly mentor
17:41 <cyphermox> that's a fair idea
17:42 <dholbach> cyphermox, I'll note it down as something we could maybe plan together :)
17:42 <cyphermox> sure
17:42 <dholbach> excellent :)
17:42 <mhall119> dholbach: thanks for taking that work item
17:43 <dholbach> I'm not quite sure... was the question about quorum/voting process sufficiently cleared?
17:43 <mhall119> cyphermox: any other plans for this next cycle to try and boost the number of applicants?
17:44 <dholbach> it coming up surprised me a bit since I couldn't remember any cases of governance boards running into the issue
17:44 <seb128> not sure if that's the right meeting to raise that, but the DMB hasn't reviewed Bjoern's application for libreoffice despite several requests/emails to review that again, it's blocked for over a year and not sure what's the way out
17:45 <micahg> the DMB has always had a different standard for votes, most probably due to the seriousness and impact  of rights being granted
17:46 <dholbach> could seb128's request be added to the DMB's agenda again?
17:46 <cyphermox> boosting the number of applicants> it's not exactly something we've discussed so much, aside from how recent changes in the project may have affected people's motivation to apply. for instance, when you can get things in through the CI train, you don't think as much of applying to get upload rights
17:46 <dholbach> micahg, you had a different voting process for different kinds of upload rights?
17:46 <mhall119> seb128: IIRC, he was rejected and hasn't officially re-applied, at least that was the conclusion at our last catchup
17:46 <mhall119> seb128: has he officially re-applied?
17:46 <seb128> mhall119, define "officially"
17:47 <seb128> we emailed the DMB asking for application to be re-reviewed
17:47 <seb128> the email got ignored
17:47 <micahg> dholbach: no, the standard was +4 instead of just a simple majority with quorum present
17:47 <mhall119> seb128: whatever the DMB's process is for applications
17:47 <micahg> seb128: the process is that he should reapply
17:47 <cyphermox> seb128: I haven't seen a new application from Bjoern since I've been on the DMB, he probably should send an email to the board?
17:47 <dholbach> micahg, ok, then I misunderstood
17:47 <micahg> that's the easiest way for it to be reconsidered
17:47 <seb128> micahg, he's not interested to re-apply due to the way he was treated last time
17:47 <cyphermox> ah :(
17:47 <seb128> so I sent an email asking for his application to be re-reviewed
17:47 <seb128> would have been nice to consider it/respond
17:47 <mhall119> seb128: so what would you like the DMB to do?
17:48 <dholbach> could the DMB still go and check the current state of things for his application and move on?
17:48 <dholbach> and give him a headsup?
17:48 <seb128> mhall119, re-review his applications without asking him to do whoknowswhatisneeded
17:48 <dholbach> as an act of courtesy and in the interest of moving on?
17:49 <mhall119> seb128: I'm unclear what you're asking, and perhaps the DMB is too, areyou asking them to review his application as if he has re-applied? Or just give feedback to him on it so that he can decide to reapply or not?
17:49 <seb128> mhall119, last time nobody told him clearly what needed to be worked on
17:49 <seb128> or changed
17:49 <seb128> so we asked for clarification/re-review his application
17:49 <seb128> not sure why we just can't get those details
17:49 <mhall119> ok, so he needs feedback so he can fix his application before re-applying, is that the case?
17:49 <seb128> yes
17:50 <seb128> he's not wanting to re-apply without being told what was the issue/wrong with the previous application
17:50 <cyphermox> seb128: I'll happily look over his application and work it out with him
17:50 <mhall119> micahg: cyphermox: can you guys try and get that feedback to bjorn in the next week or so?
17:50 <seb128> cyphermox, thanks
17:50 <mhall119> thanks cyphermox
17:50 <dholbach> thanks a lot... I'm superhappy if we can figure this out
17:50 <cyphermox> ah, I'll try to get that done today or tomorrow, otherwise I'm on vacation for two weeks
17:51 <pleia2> thanks cyphermox
17:51 <seb128> cyphermox, enjoy the vac ;-)
17:51 <mhall119> seb128: if this is still blocked in a month, please let us know so we can followup on it, we don't want this to wait for the next round of catchups
17:51 <dholbach> yes, have a good time
17:51 <seb128> mhall119, k
17:51 <dholbach> is there anything you feel the CC could help the DMB with?
17:53 <dholbach> sounds like not :)
17:53 <micahg> well, there's one issue we wanted to bring up, with the recent brouhaha with the CC and the KC, it's resulted in at least one developer no longer working on new releases (http://scarlettgatelyclark.com/2015/kubuntu-statement-from-a-not-so-important-kubuntu-developer), who happened to have been the most active uploader for vivid (http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~stefanor/ubuntu-activity/)
17:54 <micahg> developer motivation seems to be an issue
17:54 <dholbach> micahg, we are working with the KC on resolving this
17:54 <mhall119> micahg: yes, we were all very sad to see that happen, we are trying to work on mending the relationship with the KC and moving forward
17:55 <micahg> the MOTU channel is hardly active anymore, it seems most of the development focus is in the flavors
17:55 <dholbach> micahg, that's true - but I think the decline happened much earlier than the recent developments
17:56 <cyphermox> yes, but we do need people to look after $everything_else
17:56 <micahg> dholbach: indeed, it's been happening for a while now
17:56 <micahg> but I'd figure I'd highlight the recent big blow
17:56 <dholbach> for example: we didn't have anyone organising another "learn packaging" event or somebody who said "let's fix some bugs together - here's a list of stuff"
17:56 <mhall119> micahg: understood, thanks for bring that up
17:57 <dholbach> and I think it's understandable if people work on flavours
17:57 <mhall119> micahg: cyphermox: other than mending fences, do you have any recommendations or ideas for boosting motivation?
17:57 <dholbach> where the focus is smaller and the set of problems to work on is much more targetted
17:57 <dholbach> I think that might be a contributing factor as well
17:58 <micahg> yes, but it also has the unfortunate side effect of siloing things sometiems
17:58 <mhall119> that might not be a bad thing, of some people focus on their silo, as long as there is another (smaller) group working across those silos
17:58 <micahg> mhall119: well, I know that dholbach used to do a lot of activities to help spurn developer interest back in the day, I'm not sure anyones is doing that anymore
17:58 <cprofitt> micahg: do you think some of the steam has to do with the recent focus on clound and touch?
17:59 <pleia2> micahg: I hope you meant spur :)
17:59 <micahg> pleia2: yes, spur
17:59 <mhall119> pleia2: he's *very* persuasive :)
17:59 <pleia2> hehe
17:59 <mhall119> micahg: can the DMB pick up some of those activities?
18:00 <mhall119> or give it to one specific person in the DMB
18:00 <mhall119> maybe cycling it through each month?
18:00 <dholbach> and/or we could bring it up on the mailing list and see who would be willing to organise a small thing soon
18:00 <cyphermox> it's something to discuss, we can add it to the agenda
18:00 <mhall119> I know that's not really in the DMB's mandate, but if it helps motivate people it's certainly something within your wheelhouse
18:01 <micahg> well, another problem is that the word developer in Ubuntu is overloaded, see http://developer.ubuntu.com/en/
18:01 <pleia2> indeed, it is confusing
18:01 <mhall119> micahg: yeah, this is true
18:02 <mhall119> what are our options for clearing that up?
18:02 <micahg> there's nothing there's nothing really on that side about the archive I believe which is the purview of the DMB
18:02 <micahg> wow, :9
18:02 <micahg> ugh
18:02 <dholbach> I think on the pages where we introduce people to our community, we do a passable job of explaining that developing can be everything including writing an app or integrating a patch or working on CI infrastructure or anything else
18:02 <dholbach> and if not, we should fix it :)
18:03 <mhall119> is there a similar site for distro-development?
18:03 <dholbach> packaging.ubuntu.com
18:04 <dholbach> it's for documentation about ubuntu development
18:04 <dholbach> and they're both linked from community.ubuntu.com
18:04 <dholbach> maybe we can all (later on) have a look at the pages in question and see if we explain the different routes of development well enough
18:05 <pleia2> sounds good
18:05 <mhall119> dholbach: we can maybe put something up under https://developer.ubuntu.com/en/community/ as well
18:05 <mhall119> that way it would turn up in searches on developer.u.c too
18:05 <dholbach> ah yes
18:05 <dholbach> I'll file a bug
18:05 <mhall119> dholbach: can you and I work together on that?
18:06 <dholbach> sure
18:06 <dholbach> bug 1462049 :)
18:07 <ubottu> bug 1462049 in Ubuntu Developer Portal "Add a "maybe you're looking for" section" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1462049
18:07 <mhall119> alright, we're over time, any other questions for or from the DMB?
18:07 <dholbach> I think I'm done
18:07 <micahg> I think that's it, thanks
18:07 <dholbach> excellent - thanks a lot everyone!
18:07 <elfy> thanks DMB - I turned up late but managed to catch up a short while ago :)
18:08 <mhall119> oh, one last thing, do we still do Developer Week online classes?
18:08 <cyphermox> thanks!
18:08 <cyphermox> mhall119: I think we should
18:08 <dholbach> I don't think we did ubuntu app developer week or developer week in a while
18:08 <dholbach> we could have added a couple of classes to the last UOS
18:08 <mhall119> cyphermox: it would need some folks to step up and organize it
18:09 <cyphermox> but as I recall seeing developer week got kind of merged in open week or whatever it was called last time
18:09 <dholbach> especially once git fully lands on LP, it'll be good to have a session about the workflow and everything
18:09 <mhall119> cyphermox: right, and I think we tried to run it like UOS
18:09 <cyphermox> possibly
18:10 <dholbach> let's chat about it when we're going to talk about the other idea :)
18:10 <cyphermox> it's one more thing that needs reaching out on -devel@ perhaps, and see who's interested.
18:10 <dholbach> yes
18:10 <cyphermox> sure
18:10 <mhall119> cool, if we can get volunteers we can make that happen again
18:11 <mhall119> alright, thanks micahg and cyphermox
18:11 <dholbach> yes, thanks a bunch!
18:11 <mhall119> #topic Any other business
18:11 <mhall119> we're already over-time, but is there any other topic anybody wanted to bring up?
18:11 * mhall119 hopes no other team is waiting on this channel
18:12 <dholbach> nothing on the agenda page at least
18:13 <mhall119> alright, thanks everyone!
18:13 <dholbach> all right my friends - I'll start into the evening activities! have a good one!
18:13 <mhall119> #endmeeting