17:00 #startmeeting 17:00 Meeting started Thu Sep 19 17:00:35 2013 UTC. The chair is pleia2. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. 17:00 17:00 Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired 17:00 o/ 17:00 #chair dholbach czajkowski beuno 17:00 Current chairs: beuno czajkowski dholbach pleia2 17:00 hello CC 17:01 hello hello! 17:01 welcome to the Community Council meeting :) 17:01 aloha 17:01 #chair Gwaihir 17:01 Current chairs: Gwaihir beuno czajkowski dholbach pleia2 17:01 hi 17:01 so it seems we have people from the translations community here! *\o/* 17:01 #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda 17:01 ^^ Agenda 17:01 #topic Translations Community Check-in 17:02 welcome hannie and akerbeltz - anyone else here from the translations community? 17:02 so with these check-ins we just see how the team is doing, if there are any issues that we can help with, etc 17:02 thanks for the welcome 17:03 dholbach, Hi from Greek team 17:03 how are you doing? how are things in the translations world? :) 17:03 welcome Geochr! 17:03 Well, we can start translating now (freeze). Most of the messages are translated alreaddy 17:04 *already 17:04 yay freeze day \o/ 17:05 do you have good communication channels to most of the teams? (like: are they all on the mailing list and so on?) 17:05 There is a mailing list for translators which we use frequently. It works well. 17:06 All translation team members can communicate via this mailing list 17:06 ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com 17:07 great, so all the team should know about the freeze date and everything 17:08 I think I remember language pack creation from our last meeting to having been a bit of a problem - is that still the case? 17:08 I haven' t mentioned the freeze on the translators list. Perhaps I should do so 17:09 hannie: probably a good idea :) 17:09 yeah, a "ready? set? go!" message might help :-) 17:09 dholbach, I offered my help with the language pack updates 17:09 But Milo Casagrande, who offered to help me get on the way, has not contacted me yet 17:10 that's Gwaihir 17:10 pleia2 told me it's ok to just bring up any issues - we (GunChleoc and me) had some specific problems with the Gaelic localization (rogue translator) but I think they have wider implications. At the moment there seems to be no efficient way of dealing with rogue translators globally on Launchapd and there is also no way of purging really bad translations 17:10 Gwaihir: can you follow up with hannie? 17:11 akerbeltz, did you talk to other teams to find out how they dealt with similar issues in the past? 17:11 yes 17:11 ah, those nicks :) 17:11 pleia2, hannie, I will, and I need to chase the other person who offered help, since I didn't hear from him 17:12 Gwaihir, ok, I will wait and see... 17:12 mostly they suggested managing the issue via teams but the problem is that there are projects/packages on Launchpad which are *outside* the main Ubuntu files (such as Linux Mint). This left us in the position of having to chase the owners of individual projects 17:12 which is problematic as they, on the whole, cannot tell if a translator is good or bad in his or her language 17:12 it also costs a LOT of time 17:13 akerbeltz, were you able to reach out to the translator to try to integrate them better into the team? 17:14 akerbeltz, I saw that this rogue translator has withdrawn from Launchpad 17:14 I have been trying to (very diplomatically initially) talk to the guy in question for over a year now but in a nutshell, he though he was the beezneez and eventually I had to be more clear about the quality implications. at that point he resigned from the Ubuntu team for gd. But sadly he then started picking on projects that are not "covered" by that team 17:15 yes he has now left but for the future, I think there ought to be a better process of handling rogue translators globally. I'm sure we are not the only locale in danger of those 17:15 I think the best option is to make a team moderate or restricted 17:16 When a team is open, anyone can have their translations accepted immediately 17:16 but that does not seem to work globally 17:16 The proble is that we're not talking about problems in a team here, we're talking about somebody goind off on a rampage across a whole language. There are mutilpe teams on Launchpad 17:17 +1 17:17 akerbeltz, Try to contact with the owner of the project 17:17 And of course a team leader will gladly accept somebody to start a new localization not knowing if the person is any good 17:17 GunChleoc, the problem is that Linux Mint is an open team 17:17 it can be difficult as you do want people to be involved 17:17 is there possibly a way to mentor soeone 17:17 *someone 17:17 Oh, I see. It proves my point though 17:18 When somebody refuses mentorship, no. 17:18 see if they've done some transalations and then let them translate more 17:18 Yes but that means that once you spot a rogue, you then have to chase him across all projects, that costs a lot of time and in most cases, the project owners cannot tell good from bad 17:19 It's easy when you have a bog language like, say, German with over 1000 contributors, there are enough people to know about quality and so forth. In a small language, things are more difficult 17:19 some translators are so bad mentoring is not an option, we're not talking debates about a comma or a typo here or there, we're talking barely fluent people 17:19 akerbeltz: that is up to the owners of the project imo. I saw many mails when I worked in launchpad of people not likeing translations and it's difficult to police 17:21 czajkowski, or the LoCo perhaps? 17:21 but that causes serious quality issues down the line - if you owned a project and there were two Gaelic translators arguing that the other party is producing bad stuff, how could you judge? and if you just step back and say "you sort it out" then in the end the end user suffers because they get gibberish on screen. which does not help the image of Ubuntu/Linux 17:21 akerbeltz, A solution is to create a team (not open) and to contact with the owner of the project to change the translation permissions into the "official" translationteam 17:22 we tried that 17:22 the rogue then came back with a whole lot of aggro 17:22 and the owner then change it back to "open" because he (rightly) said he could not judge 17:22 I think that or similar stories have happened across quite some teams 17:23 i'm sure it has 17:23 which is why I wanted to raise it 17:23 if the owner change the permission, then if someone is out of the team, he is not able to review messages 17:24 always hiw messages will be as suggetions 17:24 his* 17:24 This is actually the really big problem we had with him, that he kept marking bad translations as reviewed 17:24 Geochr, not when the team is open 17:24 GunChleoc: so I used to see a lot of that in a similar manner on launchpad answers 17:24 hannie, you are right 17:25 it was open. then I contacted the owner and he restricted the project. fine. the rogue then came back and argued. the owner then said he could not judge and set it to open. There are a LOT of projects across Launchpad. If we have to argue with *each* that will cost us SO much time we might as well not bother 17:25 thiw is the first i have write 17:25 the best bet there is to email them and say there are issues here and expain why it's not working, if it continues then perhaps look at having them not in the team especially if it leads to more work down the line 17:25 And it also puts the project leaders into an impossible situation 17:25 the general approach I've witnessed across teams has almost always been to reach out to the person, sometimes through somebody in their loco team or city group or somehow near them or by the phone or skype (this has worked well in many cases) to get them to live up to the team's standards 17:26 dholbach: +1 17:26 The problem is that our language is too smal to have another person mediate 17:26 dholbach, I agree that the loco team could act as a judge 17:26 There are 3 of us only for the entire language across all open source projects under the sun. akerbeltz, me and the rogue 17:27 +1 hannie 17:27 So, who's the loco team that could mediate? 17:27 Is there a Scottish loco team? 17:28 dholbach, that again only works for big languages. GunChleoc and me are the only localizers (on the whole) working for Scottish Gaelic. There is no loco team or city group. 17:28 hannie: no it falls under UK as it's not language specific 17:28 akerbeltz: does somebody live near to the guy who did the translations? 17:29 all we have is his handle, no idea who he is or where he lives 17:29 ah, I thought you were in touch with him somehow 17:29 email 17:30 so in a couple of cases I offered to have a chat on skype or somewhere else, maybe that'd work, but it seems he left the team already 17:30 Yes, e-mail only. akerbeltz is the one who did the direct communication with him 17:30 so that'd probably be a suggestion for the next time you run into a similar issue 17:30 do you know how many junk translations he submitted until he got annoyed enough to leave? and what if the next guy won't leave? 17:31 we will be proofreading after someone else's priorities forever rather than work out priorities for the locale and getting it right the first time 17:31 Maybe there should be an established process to handle such cases 17:31 or a global Launchpad team for each locale 17:31 We will still have to chase him on Transifex as well - not looking forward to that 17:31 A global team is a good idea 17:32 (sorry my internet keeps dropping out, rainy day in Glasgow) 17:32 We could have a global team for access rights, and then people could still join individual teams for the projetcs they wish to translate 17:33 akerbeltz: have you brought up any of these suggestions onto the launchpad translations mailing list ? 17:33 akerbeltz, I can't guarantee you that having a chat on the phone or skype will resolve all problems every single time 17:33 akerbeltz, it's just my experience that some personal contact often helped, and that mistakes or misunderstandings could be cleared up quicker 17:33 yes, silence from any known admins, other team leaders suggesting team with restricted settings but that clearly doesn't work globally, I also posted a question 17:33 but I'm not going to try to convince you - it was a suggestion 17:34 it wasn't personal, honestly, I can forward you the emails. it was purely based on 15 years of experience in the translation industry 17:35 The problem is that our rogue is actiny deply offended, and people in that state won't listen. So, it would have to come from a "neutral" party 17:35 akerbeltz: it can be tricky to have a industry background when working in a community setting, the two often need to work harder togeteher to get done as people have different opinions and ideas. 17:35 * hannie has to leave in a minute. Success in solving this problem 17:36 thanks Hannie 17:36 hannie, any other items you wanted to bring up in the meeting? 17:36 https://launchpad.net/~launchpad-translators 17:36 No, just the language packs updates 17:36 I think it might be good to bring up some of the ideas on this list 17:36 See you all 17:36 hannie, perfect, thanks a bunch 17:36 czaj, I agree, Launchapd is not the only project I'm working with. But there is a fundamental level of language skill you need before you can translate *anyt*thing even vaguely useful and some folk just don't have that 17:36 see you hannie 17:37 it was, honest to [insert preferred invocation] at the "all you base are belong to us" level 17:37 akerbeltz: I understand, but at the same time we in the ubuntu community do try and find ways for people to contribute in non code like ways so for some translations is key. we all just need to work together and it can be a bit harder with a language barrier. 17:38 akerbeltz, right - we've seen the same in support forums, in Ubuntu development, in QA and many other parts of the community... you often have people who are very excited, sometimes very young, sometimes you have a language barrier or a different temper or whatever it may be - it can be difficult 17:38 yes, I offered that too. In fact, I didn't even ask him to quit - all I asked for initially was to pause so we could catch up proofreading. No luck. I offered he could help in face to face workshops, no interest. 17:39 akerbeltz, so GunChleoc suggested a neutral party, you suggested a global team - did you bring up those ideas on the translators list? 17:39 yes, ringing silence 17:40 except from fellow team leaders who suggested things along the lines of restricting permissions 17:41 I'm not an expert when it comes to Launchpad's translations permissions, so I'm afraid I can't comment on that. 17:41 Maybe it'd be worth reaching out to teams who had similar issues again and see if you can get them to reply to the mail. 17:42 and how would I find them? and what would I propose? 17:42 I thought somebody said earlier that other teams had had the same issues in the translations space 17:43 in any case I'd probably try again to revive the mailing list thread 17:43 yes, all from biiig languages who have enough people to set up teams for everything 17:43 surely the quality of localization must be important to the project? sure, the code makes it tick but the point of contact with the user is the UI - if that brings up gibberish, the user won't care how wonderful the code is. 17:46 I don't think anyone said it wasn't important, it's just a tricky problem to solve 17:46 trust me, I do understand the importance of translations - unfortunately I just can't comment on Launchpad permissions or on the proposal as I'm not very much involved in the translations space 17:46 akerbeltz: can you forward your email to the translations list to community-council@lists.ubuntu.com and we can follow up to see if we can find some launchpad folks with some more ideas? 17:46 pleia2, yes - good idea 17:47 ok 17:47 thanks 17:47 We might have to changee the permission system for a global solution 17:47 do we have any other issues anyone wanted to bring up from the translations community? 17:47 I will draft something with GunChleoc 17:47 we still have the membership board up in the queue - anyone from the board in here? 17:48 chilicuil: you here? 17:48 Launchpad translators decides who can found a global language team, then the global language team can vet new translators, who then can join projects. 17:48 dholbach, what is going with ubuntu translation stats? 17:48 Geochr, hannie would probably have been a good person to ask 17:49 I'm afraid I don't know - if there are issues with it, it might also be worth raising it on the team mailing list 17:49 IdleOne? Pendulum_? cjohnston? hggdh? 17:49 pleia2: now is time to the membership board? 17:49 should update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards/SittingMembers some expired 17:49 PabloRubianes: yes 17:49 I am here 17:49 :) 17:49 #topic Membership Board Check-in 17:50 I'd like to thank all the translators for the great work they've been doing. Keep up the good work! 17:50 ok, thanks folks, see youse 17:50 PabloRubianes: happy birthday :) 17:51 and welcome! 17:51 Also i awant to say for a bug that affects all the translations problems 17:51 half here 17:51 pleia2: thanks! 17:51 hi there 17:51 Geochr: if any changes are made, we'll be sure to coordinate that properly with the translations community 17:51 I have reported but it has been marked as low priority 17:51 congrats PabloRubianes, today is my birthday too =D 17:51 congratulations chilicuil! 17:51 chilicuil: neat, happy birthday to you too! 17:52 https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/975970 17:52 Ubuntu bug 975970 in Launchpad itself "Messages reviewed in translator mode if you don't check manually "Someone should review this translation"" [Low,Triaged] 17:52 mine is 10 days away :) 17:52 chilicuil: hehehe so happy birthday too :D 17:52 PabloRubianes, pleia2 =P 17:52 Geochr: good to know, thanks 17:52 we're approaching an hour for this meeting, so we should move on to the membership board 17:52 dholbach: n_n 17:53 Geochr: re the LP bug, LP is in maintenance mode and bugs taged low really may not get done without community involvment as LP is down to two people. 17:53 anyone from the membership board have comments about how things are going? any issues? happy stories? things we can help with? 17:53 pleia2: happy Birthday! 17:53 PabloRubianes: Happy Birthday 17:53 czajkowski: thanks!!! 17:54 pleia2: I think we are doing fine, we have a regular amount of applicants 17:54 czajkowski, what do you suggest ? 17:54 Geochr: we have to move to the other board as running low on time sorry 17:54 PabloRubianes: do you guys have enough people on the board to make the meetings? 17:55 czajkowski: we always get at least 4 17:55 in the 22UTC 17:55 ok thanks, i hope to be that soon 17:56 we had some issues with an asian team who tried to get the membership in bulk, language barriers, we started discussing ways to improve the situation however we've not decided anything yet 17:56 the only problem we had lately was 17:57 chilicuil: membership in bulk is new to me :) 17:57 what happened? 17:57 we got almost all the myanmar team 17:57 applying as 1 17:57 they had identical pages because they all contributed to the same events 17:57 so it was really hard to tell who did what 17:57 ah I see 17:58 pleia2: the problem was not just the events 17:58 we had 10~ applicants from the same loco team, many of them had very similar input in its wiki pages, it seems it was because of a language barrier that they couldn't personalize his pages, and communication wasn't great in the meeting neither 17:58 events, testimonials 17:58 * pleia2 nods 17:59 and the language barrier got them angry 17:59 on top of all the time zone was a mess too 17:59 for them was like 5am 17:59 It was frustrating for all involved 17:59 nods 17:59 in siutations like that would doing it via email be of use 17:59 timezones are tricky 18:00 czajkowski: they had the other board 18:00 but I email them before the meeting about that 18:00 nods ok 18:00 That is what happened. We gave them some instructions on improving their personal wiki pages and took the vote to email. 18:01 but after the got angry i got "Ohh I wait until 5am and I don't get elected?" 18:01 sounds like one of those unusual situations that won't really come up often and you handed it well 18:01 thay* 18:01 they* 18:01 it still turned out that most were not approved and some got upset... 18:01 pleia2: indeed 18:02 pleia2: yes, it isn't something I think will happened too often. Was certainly a test for both the board and the applicants 18:02 I think they still didnot understand what happend 18:02 IdleOne: +1 18:04 All in all I think the Membership board (12-22UTC) are doing good. I think we may need to step up on our team reports. I am guilty of not doing them myself :/ 18:05 anything the CC can help with folks? 18:05 I think the most important thing is getting the announcement emails out, more than team reports 18:05 so if you want to focus on something, I'd suggest there :) 18:06 Nothing I can think of, the meeting seem to run smooth. I think our main thing is the paper work after. I think the we have been good about the emails being done. PabloRubianes chilicuil ? 18:06 the wiki page could take some love too, when people go to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership they should feel inspired 18:06 haven't seen an announcement for the last meeting yet 18:06 I agree with IdleOne 18:06 everything else seems ok to me 18:07 excellent 18:07 good work! 18:07 pleia2: I'll remind the 1200 folks about it. 18:07 thanks :) 18:07 Thank you for all your hard work! 18:08 and thanks for joining us here at the meeting 18:09 have a great rest of your day everyone! 18:09 chilicuil, PabloRubianes: enjoy your birthdays! :) 18:09 thank you. 18:09 dholbach: thanks 18:09 One more thing 18:09 to the CC 18:10 I've just send you the LoCo Council applications 18:10 yep, saw the mail 18:10 :) 18:10 I'll have a look at it tomorrow 18:10 does anyone else have any other agenda items or things you wanted to bring up? 18:10 oh, +1 PabloRubianes for LoCo council 18:10 #topic Any other business 18:11 now that the LoCo Council call is wrapped up, we'll be sending out the Community Council restaffing call within the next day or so 18:11 (we expire in mid october) 18:11 * pleia2 gives meetingology some more internets 18:12 :-) 18:12 oh! 18:12 dholbach: how do we make a change to http://www.ubuntu.com/about/about-ubuntu/governance ? 18:12 the first paragraph under CC confuses me a bit and doesn't seem accurate 18:12 "It is the Community Council that approves the creation of a new team or project, along with team leader appointments." 18:13 we don't strictly do that 18:13 pleia2, for now just file a bug, but I still have work item from UDS to find a few folks who would like to be co-editors of the page 18:13 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community-website/+filebug 18:14 dholbach: this is on ubuntu.com 18:14 not community 18:14 maybe https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+filebug ? 18:14 oh sorry 18:14 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website-content/+filebug 18:15 ah ok 18:15 thanks, I'll do that 18:15 and sub the cc to the bug 18:15 cool 18:15 * pleia2 peers at trello real quick 18:16 ah, we had a volunteer go through our planet config 18:16 still need to review his feedback 18:16 I'll dig up that mail and follow up soon 18:17 * dholbach hugs pleia2 18:17 ok, I guess we'll wrap this up then :) 18:17 thanks everyone 18:17 thanks a bunch! 18:17 #endmeeting