17:00 <pleia2> #startmeeting
17:00 <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Sep 19 17:00:35 2013 UTC.  The chair is pleia2. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
17:00 <meetingology> 
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17:00 <dholbach> o/
17:00 <pleia2> #chair dholbach czajkowski beuno
17:00 <meetingology> Current chairs: beuno czajkowski dholbach pleia2
17:00 <hannie> hello CC
17:01 <beuno> hello hello!
17:01 <pleia2> welcome to the Community Council meeting :)
17:01 <czajkowski> aloha
17:01 <pleia2> #chair Gwaihir
17:01 <meetingology> Current chairs: Gwaihir beuno czajkowski dholbach pleia2
17:01 <akerbeltz> hi
17:01 <dholbach> so it seems we have people from the translations community here! *\o/*
17:01 <pleia2> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
17:01 <pleia2> ^^ Agenda
17:01 <pleia2> #topic Translations Community Check-in
17:02 <dholbach> welcome hannie and akerbeltz - anyone else here from the translations community?
17:02 <pleia2> so with these check-ins we just see how the team is doing, if there are any issues that we can help with, etc
17:02 <hannie> thanks for the welcome
17:03 <Geochr> dholbach, Hi from Greek team
17:03 <dholbach> how are you doing? how are things in the translations world? :)
17:03 <dholbach> welcome Geochr!
17:03 <hannie> Well, we can start translating now (freeze). Most of the messages are translated alreaddy
17:04 <hannie> *already
17:04 <pleia2> yay freeze day \o/
17:05 <dholbach> do you have good communication channels to most of the teams? (like: are they all on the mailing list and so on?)
17:05 <hannie> There is a mailing list for translators which we use frequently. It works well.
17:06 <hannie> All translation team members can communicate via this mailing list
17:06 <hannie> ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com
17:07 <dholbach> great, so all the team should know about the freeze date and everything
17:08 <dholbach> I think I remember language pack creation from our last meeting to having been a bit of a problem - is that still the case?
17:08 <hannie> I haven' t mentioned the freeze on the translators list. Perhaps I should do so
17:09 <pleia2> hannie: probably a good idea :)
17:09 <dholbach> yeah, a "ready? set? go!" message might help :-)
17:09 <hannie> dholbach, I offered my help with the language pack updates
17:09 <hannie> But Milo Casagrande, who offered to help me get on the way, has not contacted me yet
17:10 <pleia2> that's Gwaihir
17:10 <akerbeltz> pleia2 told me it's ok to just bring up any issues - we (GunChleoc and me) had some specific problems with the Gaelic localization (rogue translator) but I think they have wider implications. At the moment there seems to be no efficient way of dealing with rogue translators globally on Launchapd and there is also no way of purging really bad translations
17:10 <pleia2> Gwaihir: can you follow up with hannie?
17:11 <dholbach> akerbeltz, did you talk to other teams to find out how they dealt with similar issues in the past?
17:11 <akerbeltz> yes
17:11 <hannie> ah, those nicks :)
17:11 <Gwaihir> pleia2, hannie, I will, and I need to chase the other person who offered help, since I didn't hear from him
17:12 <hannie> Gwaihir, ok, I will wait and see...
17:12 <akerbeltz> mostly they suggested managing the issue via teams but the problem is that there are projects/packages on Launchpad which are *outside* the main Ubuntu files (such as Linux Mint). This left us in the position of having to chase the owners of individual projects
17:12 <akerbeltz> which is problematic as they, on the whole, cannot tell if a translator is good or bad in his or her language
17:12 <akerbeltz> it also costs a LOT of time
17:13 <dholbach> akerbeltz, were you able to reach out to the translator to try to integrate them better into the team?
17:14 <hannie> akerbeltz, I saw that this rogue translator has withdrawn from Launchpad
17:14 <akerbeltz> I have been trying to (very diplomatically initially) talk to the guy in question for over a year now but in a nutshell, he though he was the beezneez and eventually I had to be more clear about the quality implications. at that point he resigned from the Ubuntu team for gd. But sadly he then started picking on projects that are not "covered" by that team
17:15 <akerbeltz> yes he has now left but for the future, I think there ought to be a better process of handling rogue translators globally. I'm sure we are not the only locale in danger of those
17:15 <hannie> I think the best option is to make a team moderate or restricted
17:16 <hannie> When a team is open, anyone can have their translations accepted immediately
17:16 <akerbeltz> but that does not seem to work globally
17:16 <GunChleoc> The proble is that we're not talking about problems in a team here, we're talking about somebody goind off on a rampage across a whole language. There are mutilpe teams on Launchpad
17:17 <czajkowski> +1
17:17 <Geochr> akerbeltz, Try to contact with the owner of the project
17:17 <GunChleoc> And of course a team leader will gladly accept somebody to start a new localization not knowing if the person is any good
17:17 <hannie> GunChleoc, the problem is that Linux Mint is an open team
17:17 <czajkowski> it can be difficult as you do want people to be involved
17:17 <czajkowski> is there possibly a way to mentor soeone
17:17 <czajkowski> *someone
17:17 <GunChleoc> Oh, I see. It proves my point though
17:18 <GunChleoc> When somebody refuses mentorship, no.
17:18 <czajkowski> see if they've done some transalations and then let them translate more
17:18 <akerbeltz> Yes but that means that once you spot a rogue, you then have to chase him across all projects, that costs a lot of time and in most cases, the project owners cannot tell good from bad
17:19 <GunChleoc> It's easy when you have a bog language like, say, German with over 1000 contributors, there are enough people to know about quality and so forth. In a small language, things are more difficult
17:19 <akerbeltz> some translators are so bad mentoring is not an option, we're not talking debates about a comma or a typo here or there, we're talking barely fluent people
17:19 <czajkowski> akerbeltz: that is up to the owners of the project imo. I saw many mails when I worked in launchpad of people not likeing translations and it's difficult to police
17:21 <hannie> czajkowski, or the LoCo perhaps?
17:21 <akerbeltz> but that causes serious quality issues down the line - if you owned a project and there were two Gaelic translators arguing that the other party is producing bad stuff, how could you judge? and if you just step back and say "you sort it out" then in the end the end user suffers because they get gibberish on screen. which does not help the image of Ubuntu/Linux
17:21 <Geochr> akerbeltz, A solution is to create a team (not open) and to contact with the owner of the project to change the translation permissions into the "official" translationteam
17:22 <akerbeltz> we tried that
17:22 <akerbeltz> the rogue then came back with a whole lot of aggro
17:22 <akerbeltz> and the owner then change it back to "open" because he (rightly) said he could not judge
17:22 <dholbach> I think that or similar stories have happened across quite some teams
17:23 <akerbeltz> i'm sure it has
17:23 <akerbeltz> which is why I wanted to raise it
17:23 <Geochr> if the owner change the permission, then if someone is out of the team, he is not able to review messages
17:24 <Geochr> always hiw messages will be as suggetions
17:24 <Geochr> his*
17:24 <GunChleoc> This is actually the really big problem we had with him, that he kept marking bad translations as reviewed
17:24 <hannie> Geochr, not when the team is open
17:24 <czajkowski> GunChleoc: so I used to see a lot of that in a similar manner on launchpad answers
17:24 <Geochr> hannie, you are right
17:25 <akerbeltz> it was open. then I contacted the owner and he restricted the project. fine. the rogue then came back and argued. the owner then said he could not judge and set it to open. There are a LOT of projects across Launchpad. If we have to argue with *each* that will cost us SO much time we might as well not bother
17:25 <Geochr> thiw is the first i have write
17:25 <czajkowski> the best bet there is to email them and say there are issues here and expain why it's not working, if it continues then perhaps look at having them not in the team especially if it leads to more work down the line
17:25 <GunChleoc> And it also puts the project leaders into an impossible situation
17:25 <dholbach> the general approach I've witnessed across teams has almost always been to reach out to the person, sometimes through somebody in their loco team or city group or somehow near them or by the phone or skype (this has worked well in many cases) to get them to live up to the team's standards
17:26 <czajkowski> dholbach: +1
17:26 <GunChleoc> The problem is that our language is too smal to have another person mediate
17:26 <hannie> dholbach, I agree that the loco team could act as a judge
17:26 <GunChleoc> There are 3 of us only for the entire language across all open source projects under the sun. akerbeltz, me and the rogue
17:27 <Geochr> +1 hannie
17:27 <GunChleoc> So, who's the loco team that could mediate?
17:27 <hannie> Is there a Scottish loco team?
17:28 <akerbeltz_> dholbach, that again only works for big languages. GunChleoc and me are the only localizers (on the whole) working for Scottish Gaelic. There is no loco team or city group.
17:28 <czajkowski> hannie: no it falls under UK as it's not language specific
17:28 <dholbach> akerbeltz: does somebody live near to the guy who did the translations?
17:29 <akerbeltz_> all we have is his handle, no idea who he is or where he lives
17:29 <dholbach> ah, I thought you were in touch with him somehow
17:29 <akerbeltz> email
17:30 <dholbach> so in a couple of cases I offered to have a chat on skype or somewhere else, maybe that'd work, but it seems he left the team already
17:30 <GunChleoc> Yes, e-mail only. akerbeltz is the one who did the direct communication with him
17:30 <dholbach> so that'd probably be a suggestion for the next time you run into a similar issue
17:30 <akerbeltz> do you know how many junk translations he submitted until he got annoyed enough to leave? and what if the next guy won't leave?
17:31 <akerbeltz> we will be proofreading after someone else's priorities forever rather than work out priorities for the locale and getting it right the first time
17:31 <GunChleoc> Maybe there should be an established process to handle such cases
17:31 <akerbeltz> or a global Launchpad team for each locale
17:31 <GunChleoc> We will still have to chase him on Transifex as well - not looking forward to that
17:31 <GunChleoc> A global team is a good idea
17:32 <akerbeltz> (sorry my internet keeps dropping out, rainy day in Glasgow)
17:32 <GunChleoc> We could have a global team for access rights, and then people could still join individual teams for the projetcs they wish to translate
17:33 <czajkowski> akerbeltz: have you brought up any of these suggestions onto the launchpad translations mailing list ?
17:33 <dholbach> akerbeltz, I can't guarantee you that having a chat on the phone or skype will resolve all problems every single time
17:33 <dholbach> akerbeltz, it's just my experience that some personal contact often helped, and that mistakes or misunderstandings could be cleared up quicker
17:33 <akerbeltz> yes, silence from any known admins, other team leaders suggesting team with restricted settings but that clearly doesn't work globally, I also posted a question
17:33 <dholbach> but I'm not going to try to convince you - it was a suggestion
17:34 <akerbeltz> it wasn't personal, honestly, I can forward you the emails. it was purely based on 15 years of experience in the translation industry
17:35 <GunChleoc> The problem is that our rogue is actiny deply offended, and people in that state won't listen. So, it would have to come from a "neutral" party
17:35 <czajkowski> akerbeltz: it can be tricky to have a industry background when working in a community setting, the two often need to work harder togeteher to get done as people have different opinions and ideas.
17:35 * hannie has to leave in a minute. Success in solving this problem
17:36 <GunChleoc> thanks Hannie
17:36 <dholbach> hannie, any other items you wanted to bring up in the meeting?
17:36 <czajkowski> https://launchpad.net/~launchpad-translators
17:36 <hannie> No, just the language packs updates
17:36 <czajkowski> I think it might be good to bring up some of the ideas on this list
17:36 <hannie> See you all
17:36 <dholbach> hannie, perfect, thanks a bunch
17:36 <akerbeltz> czaj, I agree, Launchapd is not the only project I'm working with. But there is a fundamental level of language skill you need before you can translate *anyt*thing even vaguely useful and some folk just don't have that
17:36 <akerbeltz> see you hannie
17:37 <akerbeltz> it was, honest to [insert preferred invocation] at the "all you base are belong to us" level
17:37 <czajkowski> akerbeltz: I understand, but at the same time we in the ubuntu community do try and find ways for people to contribute in non code like ways so for some translations is key. we all just need to work together and it can be a bit harder with a language barrier.
17:38 <dholbach> akerbeltz, right - we've seen the same in support forums, in Ubuntu development, in QA and many other parts of the community... you often have people who are very excited, sometimes very young, sometimes you have a language barrier or a different temper or whatever it may be - it can be difficult
17:38 <akerbeltz> yes, I offered that too. In fact, I didn't even ask him to quit - all I asked for initially was to pause so we could catch up proofreading. No luck. I offered he could help in face to face workshops, no interest.
17:39 <dholbach> akerbeltz, so GunChleoc suggested a neutral party, you suggested a global team - did you bring up those ideas on the translators list?
17:39 <akerbeltz> yes, ringing silence
17:40 <akerbeltz> except from fellow team leaders who suggested things along the lines of restricting permissions
17:41 <dholbach> I'm not an expert when it comes to Launchpad's translations permissions, so I'm afraid I can't comment on that.
17:41 <dholbach> Maybe it'd be worth reaching out to teams who had similar issues again and see if you can get them to reply to the mail.
17:42 <akerbeltz> and how would I find them? and what would I propose?
17:42 <dholbach> I thought somebody said earlier that other teams had had the same issues in the translations space
17:43 <dholbach> in any case I'd probably try again to revive the mailing list thread
17:43 <akerbeltz> yes, all from biiig languages who have enough people to set up teams for everything
17:43 <akerbeltz> surely the quality of localization must be important to the project? sure, the code makes it tick but the point of contact with the user is the UI - if that brings up gibberish, the user won't care how wonderful the code is.
17:46 <pleia2> I don't think anyone said it wasn't important, it's just a tricky problem to solve
17:46 <dholbach> trust me, I do understand the importance of translations - unfortunately I just can't comment on Launchpad permissions or on the proposal as I'm not very much involved in the translations space
17:46 <pleia2> akerbeltz: can you forward your email to the translations list to community-council@lists.ubuntu.com and we can follow up to see if we can find some launchpad folks with some more ideas?
17:46 <dholbach> pleia2, yes - good idea
17:47 <akerbeltz> ok
17:47 <dholbach> thanks
17:47 <GunChleoc> We might have to changee the permission system for a global solution
17:47 <dholbach> do we have any other issues anyone wanted to bring up from the translations community?
17:47 <akerbeltz> I will draft something with GunChleoc
17:47 <dholbach> we still have the membership board up in the queue - anyone from the board in here?
17:48 <pleia2> chilicuil: you here?
17:48 <GunChleoc> Launchpad translators decides who can found a global language team, then the global language team can vet new translators, who then can join projects.
17:48 <Geochr> dholbach, what is going with ubuntu translation stats?
17:48 <dholbach> Geochr, hannie would probably have been a good person to ask
17:49 <dholbach> I'm afraid I don't know - if there are issues with it, it might also be worth raising it on the team mailing list
17:49 <pleia2> IdleOne? Pendulum_? cjohnston? hggdh?
17:49 <PabloRubianes> pleia2: now is time to the membership board?
17:49 <pleia2> should update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards/SittingMembers some expired
17:49 <pleia2> PabloRubianes: yes
17:49 <PabloRubianes> I am here
17:49 <PabloRubianes> :)
17:49 <pleia2> #topic Membership Board Check-in
17:50 <dholbach> I'd like to thank all the translators for the great work they've been doing. Keep up the good work!
17:50 <akerbeltz> ok, thanks folks, see youse
17:50 <pleia2> PabloRubianes: happy birthday :)
17:51 <pleia2> and welcome!
17:51 <Geochr> Also i awant to say for a bug that affects all the translations problems
17:51 <IdleOne> half here
17:51 <PabloRubianes> pleia2: thanks!
17:51 <chilicuil> hi there
17:51 <pleia2> Geochr: if any changes are made, we'll be sure to coordinate that properly with the translations community
17:51 <Geochr> I have reported but it has been marked as low priority
17:51 <chilicuil> congrats PabloRubianes, today is my birthday too =D
17:51 <dholbach> congratulations chilicuil!
17:51 <pleia2> chilicuil: neat, happy birthday to you too!
17:52 <Geochr> https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/975970
17:52 <ubottu> Ubuntu bug 975970 in Launchpad itself "Messages reviewed in translator mode if you don't check manually "Someone should review this translation"" [Low,Triaged]
17:52 <pleia2> mine is 10 days away :)
17:52 <PabloRubianes> chilicuil: hehehe so happy birthday too :D
17:52 <chilicuil> PabloRubianes, pleia2 =P
17:52 <pleia2> Geochr: good to know, thanks
17:52 <pleia2> we're approaching an hour for this meeting, so we should move on to the membership board
17:52 <chilicuil> dholbach: n_n
17:53 <czajkowski> Geochr: re the LP bug, LP is in maintenance mode and bugs taged low really may not get done without community involvment as LP is down to two people.
17:53 <pleia2> anyone from the membership board have comments about how things are going? any issues? happy stories? things we can help with?
17:53 <czajkowski> pleia2: happy Birthday!
17:53 <czajkowski> PabloRubianes: Happy Birthday
17:53 <PabloRubianes> czajkowski: thanks!!!
17:54 <PabloRubianes> pleia2: I think we are doing fine, we have a regular amount of applicants
17:54 <Geochr> czajkowski, what do you suggest ?
17:54 <czajkowski> Geochr: we have to move to the other board as running low on time sorry
17:54 <czajkowski> PabloRubianes: do you guys have enough people on the board to make the meetings?
17:55 <PabloRubianes> czajkowski: we always get at least 4
17:55 <PabloRubianes> in the 22UTC
17:55 <Geochr> ok thanks, i hope to be that soon
17:56 <chilicuil> we had some issues with an asian team who tried to get the membership in bulk, language barriers, we started discussing ways to improve the situation however we've not decided anything yet
17:56 <PabloRubianes> the only problem we had lately was
17:57 <czajkowski> chilicuil: membership in bulk is new to me :)
17:57 <czajkowski> what happened?
17:57 <PabloRubianes> we got almost all the myanmar team
17:57 <PabloRubianes> applying as 1
17:57 <pleia2> they had identical pages because they all contributed to the same events
17:57 <pleia2> so it was really hard to tell who did what
17:57 <czajkowski> ah I see
17:58 <PabloRubianes> pleia2: the problem was not just the events
17:58 <chilicuil> we had 10~ applicants from the same loco team, many of them had very similar input in its wiki pages, it seems it was because of a language barrier that they couldn't personalize his pages, and communication wasn't great in the meeting neither
17:58 <PabloRubianes> events, testimonials
17:58 * pleia2 nods
17:59 <PabloRubianes> and the language barrier got them angry
17:59 <PabloRubianes> on top of all the time zone was a mess too
17:59 <PabloRubianes> for them was like 5am
17:59 <IdleOne> It was frustrating for all involved
17:59 <czajkowski> nods
17:59 <czajkowski> in siutations like that would doing it via email be of use
17:59 <czajkowski> timezones are tricky
18:00 <PabloRubianes> czajkowski: they had the other board
18:00 <PabloRubianes> but I email them before the meeting about that
18:00 <czajkowski> nods ok
18:00 <IdleOne> That is what happened. We gave them some instructions on improving their personal wiki pages and took the vote to email.
18:01 <PabloRubianes> but after the got angry i got "Ohh I wait until 5am and I don't get elected?"
18:01 <pleia2> sounds like one of those unusual situations that won't really come up often and you handed it well
18:01 <PabloRubianes> thay*
18:01 <PabloRubianes> they*
18:01 <IdleOne> it still turned out that most were not approved and some got upset...
18:01 <czajkowski> pleia2: indeed
18:02 <IdleOne> pleia2: yes, it isn't something I think will happened too often. Was certainly a test for both the board and the applicants
18:02 <PabloRubianes> I think they still didnot understand what happend
18:02 <PabloRubianes> IdleOne: +1
18:04 <IdleOne> All in all I think the Membership board (12-22UTC) are doing good. I think we may need to step up on our team reports. I am guilty of not doing them myself :/
18:05 <czajkowski> anything the CC can help with folks?
18:05 <pleia2> I think the most important thing is getting the announcement emails out, more than team reports
18:05 <pleia2> so if you want to focus on something, I'd suggest there :)
18:06 <IdleOne> Nothing I can think of, the meeting seem to run smooth. I think our main thing is the paper work after. I think the we have been good about the emails being done. PabloRubianes chilicuil ?
18:06 <chilicuil> the wiki page could take some love too, when people go to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership they should feel inspired
18:06 <pleia2> haven't seen an announcement for the last meeting yet
18:06 <PabloRubianes> I agree with IdleOne
18:06 <chilicuil> everything else seems ok to me
18:07 <czajkowski> excellent
18:07 <dholbach> good work!
18:07 <IdleOne> pleia2: I'll remind the 1200 folks about it.
18:07 <pleia2> thanks :)
18:07 <czajkowski> Thank you for all your hard work!
18:08 <pleia2> and thanks for joining us here at the meeting
18:09 <dholbach> have a great rest of your day everyone!
18:09 <dholbach> chilicuil, PabloRubianes: enjoy your birthdays! :)
18:09 <IdleOne> thank you.
18:09 <PabloRubianes> dholbach: thanks
18:09 <PabloRubianes> One more thing
18:09 <PabloRubianes> to the CC
18:10 <PabloRubianes> I've just send you the LoCo Council applications
18:10 <dholbach> yep, saw the mail
18:10 <PabloRubianes> :)
18:10 <dholbach> I'll have a look at it tomorrow
18:10 <dholbach> does anyone else have any other agenda items or things you wanted to bring up?
18:10 <IdleOne> oh, +1 PabloRubianes for LoCo council
18:10 <pleia2> #topic Any other business
18:11 <pleia2> now that the LoCo Council call is wrapped up, we'll be sending out the Community Council restaffing call within the next day or so
18:11 <pleia2> (we expire in mid october)
18:11 * pleia2 gives meetingology some more internets
18:12 <dholbach> :-)
18:12 <pleia2> oh!
18:12 <pleia2> dholbach: how do we make a change to http://www.ubuntu.com/about/about-ubuntu/governance ?
18:12 <pleia2> the first paragraph under CC confuses me a bit and doesn't seem accurate
18:12 <pleia2> "It is the Community Council that approves the creation of a new team or project, along with team leader appointments."
18:13 <pleia2> we don't strictly do that
18:13 <dholbach> pleia2, for now just file a bug, but I still have work item from UDS to find a few folks who would like to be co-editors of the page
18:13 <dholbach> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community-website/+filebug
18:14 <pleia2> dholbach: this is on ubuntu.com
18:14 <pleia2> not community
18:14 <pleia2> maybe https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+filebug ?
18:14 <dholbach> oh sorry
18:14 <dholbach> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website-content/+filebug
18:15 <pleia2> ah ok
18:15 <pleia2> thanks, I'll do that
18:15 <pleia2> and sub the cc to the bug
18:15 <dholbach> cool
18:15 * pleia2 peers at trello real quick
18:16 <pleia2> ah, we had a volunteer go through our planet config
18:16 <pleia2> still need to review his feedback
18:16 <pleia2> I'll dig up that mail and follow up soon
18:17 * dholbach hugs pleia2
18:17 <pleia2> ok, I guess we'll wrap this up then :)
18:17 <pleia2> thanks everyone
18:17 <dholbach> thanks a  bunch!
18:17 <pleia2> #endmeeting