19:01:04 <stgraber> #startmeeting DMB meeting
19:01:04 <meetingology> Meeting started Mon Mar 25 19:01:04 2013 UTC.  The chair is stgraber. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
19:01:04 <meetingology> 
19:01:04 <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
19:01:28 <stgraber> #topic Review of previous action items
19:01:33 <stgraber> Micah to send summary of PPU decoupling discuss to the DMB list
19:01:37 <stgraber> micahg: ^
19:01:50 <tumbleweed> hi
19:02:33 <stgraber> waiting a minute for micahg as he has both previous actions
19:02:46 <bdrung> o/
19:02:59 <micahg> that was done
19:03:22 <stgraber> Micah to urgently send feedback on Bjorn's PPU application
19:04:22 <stgraber> micahg: any progress on that one?
19:04:45 <micahg> no, not yet, but I should have time soon
19:04:56 <stgraber> ok
19:05:07 <stgraber> #topic PerPackageUploader Applications
19:05:29 <stgraber> #subtopic Paul Gevers
19:05:43 <Elbrus> that's me
19:05:48 <stgraber> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Elbrus/PerPackageUploaderApplication
19:05:58 <stgraber> Elbrus: Hi, can you introduce yourself and your application please?
19:06:20 <Elbrus> well, I started working on Ubuntu several years ago
19:06:26 <Elbrus> first looking at bugs
19:06:39 <Elbrus> trying to get them in shape for proper solving
19:07:26 <Elbrus> as I don't require much software myself that is not in Ubuntu yet, I started to look at request from others
19:07:30 <Elbrus> I found winff
19:07:44 <Elbrus> (well first miktex, but that didn't work)
19:08:03 <ScottK> Why did you apply for PPU and not MOTU?
19:08:16 <Elbrus> one step at a time
19:08:36 <ScottK> PPU isn't necessary as a step.
19:08:49 <Elbrus> as I am now Debian developer, I switched my own system to Debian...
19:09:07 <Elbrus> I support Ubuntu (especially on the packages that I monitor)
19:09:33 <Elbrus> I don't want to rush things
19:10:58 <Elbrus> but no specific reason otherwise
19:11:47 <Elbrus> actually, I haven't much looked into it, I was a DM for a long time and that was fine with me
19:12:07 <Elbrus> at Debian it takes longer to earn those upload rights...
19:12:21 <Elbrus> I guess that is it.
19:12:30 <tumbleweed> DDs don't need to show much to join MOTU. Basically, if you understand the Ubuntu processes and release cycle, and do some work in Ubuntu, you can probably have a successful MOTU application
19:13:17 * Elbrus didn't know that... Daniel Holbach convinced me to get those PPU rights
19:13:28 <Elbrus> we didn't discuss Motu
19:14:08 <tumbleweed> it looks like your work in Ubuntu has been restricted to a handful of packages, so PPU sounds like it'd be useful to you
19:14:20 <Elbrus> exactly
19:14:25 <tumbleweed> but if you start working more widely, please come back to us
19:14:35 <Elbrus> I try to spend my time understanding what I do
19:14:50 * ScottK would be happy to +1 either PPU or MOTU, fwiw.
19:14:57 <Elbrus> thanks
19:15:13 <tumbleweed> so, talking of Ubuntu processes
19:15:20 <Elbrus> yes
19:15:22 <tumbleweed> are you subscribed to ubuntu-devel-annonce?
19:15:25 <Elbrus> yes
19:15:30 <tumbleweed> err, pretend I spelled that correctly
19:15:43 <Elbrus> pretend I read what you ment
19:16:41 <tumbleweed> oh, and, btw, thanks for your work on motif with graham inggs. he's a local friend, and I see good progress
19:17:01 <Elbrus> yes, he is good to mentor (because that is what I am actually doing)
19:17:24 <Elbrus> he knows the content, I know Debian procedures... good combo
19:17:32 <micahg> Elbrus: have you ever had to work with the release team to get something in?
19:17:42 <Elbrus> in Debian you mean?
19:17:47 <micahg> no, Ubuntu
19:18:14 <Elbrus> I think I filed a exception some releases ago
19:18:19 <Elbrus> s/a/an
19:19:10 <tumbleweed> if you wanted to do an upload tomorrow, would you need to coordinate with the release team?
19:19:57 <Elbrus> at the current state of the release, I think yes, but to be honest, I would look it up first
19:20:03 <Elbrus> after feature freeze
19:20:32 <tumbleweed> so, the we trust Ubuntu Developers to know what they are doing
19:20:41 <tumbleweed> if you decide an upload fixes bugs, and doesn't add new features, you can just do it
19:20:47 <Elbrus> actually, graham was hinting yesterday of getting things in... I responded that I would expect that to go..
19:21:13 <tumbleweed> none of the packages you are applying for are seeded, so we don't need to get into the more complex freeze issues
19:21:26 <Elbrus> right... until the moment of release... (scary to me)
19:21:41 <micahg> it never hurts to ask though if you're unsure
19:21:46 <Elbrus> sure, all leaf packages
19:21:53 <tumbleweed> re motif, massive build system changes also need feature freeze exceptions (they are risky)
19:21:58 * tumbleweed must mail him...
19:22:01 <Elbrus> micahg: that is exactly my attitude
19:22:32 <tumbleweed> closer to the end of the freeze, uploads will all be reviewed by the release team, but we aren't there yet...
19:22:37 <Elbrus> better safe than sorry
19:22:56 * tumbleweed stops asking questions
19:23:08 <Elbrus> @ finalfreeze I guess?
19:23:08 <meetingology> Elbrus: Error: "finalfreeze" is not a valid command.
19:23:18 <Elbrus> oops
19:23:35 <bdrung> :)
19:24:23 <micahg> Elbrus: FTR, Kubuntu not being supported was a Canonical decision, not an Ubuntu project decision, so I guess the project is perfect then? :D
19:24:36 <ScottK> Elbrus: If you were on the release team and had to deal with all the bugs filed by people who file for an exception for every upload, you might not say better safe than sorry ...
19:24:43 <Elbrus> I wrote that some time ago indeed
19:24:52 <Elbrus> and I understand that
19:25:08 <ScottK> It actually doesn't change much since Kubuntu people did most of the security updates for Kubuntu packages anyway.
19:25:11 <Elbrus> ScottK: sure
19:25:23 <Elbrus> I meant: reading up on the moment
19:25:37 <Elbrus> and CHECK that what I have in mind is all right
19:25:50 <Elbrus> and only when unsure: ask
19:26:59 <Elbrus> I did that with one of my Debian uploads recently, as I considered it quite disruptive.
19:27:17 <bdrung> you can ask on IRC if you are unsure whether it is needed or not (before filing a freeze exception)
19:27:18 <Elbrus> only the important part was excepted
19:27:25 <Elbrus> exactly
19:27:57 <Elbrus> I am on #ubuntu-devel and #ubuntu-motu (asking and answering once in a while)
19:29:00 <stgraber> #vote PPU for Paul Gevers (winff, daisy-player, ebook-speaker and cacti)
19:29:00 <meetingology> Please vote on: PPU for Paul Gevers (winff, daisy-player, ebook-speaker and cacti)
19:29:00 <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
19:29:03 <ScottK> +1
19:29:03 <meetingology> +1 received from ScottK
19:29:09 <micahg> +1
19:29:09 <meetingology> +1 received from micahg
19:29:26 <bdrung> +1
19:29:26 <meetingology> +1 received from bdrung
19:29:28 <stgraber> +1
19:29:28 <meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
19:29:29 <tumbleweed> +1
19:29:29 <meetingology> +1 received from tumbleweed
19:29:52 <stgraber> #endvote
19:29:52 <meetingology> Voting ended on: PPU for Paul Gevers (winff, daisy-player, ebook-speaker and cacti)
19:29:52 <meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
19:29:52 <meetingology> Motion carried
19:30:05 * Elbrus thanks you
19:30:11 <bdrung> Elbrus: most developers are in these channels. You can go into #ubuntu-release if you want to talk to the release team directly.
19:30:12 <micahg> Elbrus: congratulations
19:30:22 <bdrung> congrats Elbrus
19:30:40 <stgraber> congrats!
19:30:46 <stgraber> #topic MOTU Applications
19:30:54 <stgraber> #subtopic Vibhav Pant
19:31:02 <stgraber> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VibhavPant/MOTUApplication
19:31:29 <stgraber> vibhav: ping
19:33:24 <stgraber> waiting 2 more minutes
19:36:53 <stgraber> #topic Select a chair for the next meeting (following alphabetical order of first names)
19:37:00 <stgraber> next chair will be barry
19:37:05 <stgraber> #topic Any other business
19:37:24 <tumbleweed> meeting rescheduling?
19:37:51 <bdrung> tumbleweed: to which timeslots?
19:38:06 <tumbleweed> micahg: will you set up a doodle poll?
19:38:09 <micahg> yes
19:38:18 <micahg> (probably not until Wed night though)
19:38:18 * vibhav waves
19:41:19 * vibhav is sorry for the delay, my alarm clock was set for the wrong time
19:41:37 <stgraber> hi vibhav, we're quickly checking whether the members can stay a bit longer for your application or whether we should reschedule
19:42:18 <stgraber> #topic MOTU Applications
19:42:21 <stgraber> #subtopic Vibhav Pant
19:42:25 <stgraber> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VibhavPant/MOTUApplication
19:42:37 <stgraber> vibhav: hi, can you introduce yourself and your application please?
19:42:47 <vibhav> sure
19:43:07 <vibhav> I am Vibhav Pant, a current high school student in India.
19:43:43 <vibhav> I have been involved with Ubuntu since the ~precise cycle
19:44:21 <vibhav> I primarily work on merges and sync from debian, autopkgtests, ftbfs and general upstream changes
19:45:37 <vibhav> I was recently told by one of my main sponsors that I should apply for MOTU, and that is what I did
19:48:35 <micahg> hi vibhav, what happened with https://code.launchpad.net/~vibhavp/ubuntu/raring/gramophone2/merge-from-debian/+merge/141277 ?
19:49:30 <vibhav> micahg: I corrected the fix, but never got the time to upload.
19:50:03 <vibhav> Ive got some recent problems with my internet connection
19:50:18 <vibhav> which should be fixed by next week
19:50:54 <vibhav> that includes 3 more branches (including thoggen) too
19:53:12 <vibhav> fyi, my upload bandwith is stuck around ~0.5 kbps
19:53:49 <tumbleweed> that's painful
19:53:56 <ScottK> Those of us who started with 110 bps modems, aren't impressed.
19:54:04 <tumbleweed> heh
19:54:18 <tumbleweed> vibhav: in your application, you talk about needs-packaging bugs being neglected
19:54:21 <vibhav> tumbleweed: Not surprising if you live in India
19:55:01 <tumbleweed> many of us don't want to bring in too many new packages, because if nobody maintains them, they'll cause more pain than they are worth
19:55:40 <tumbleweed> do you have any ideas on how we can bring new packages into Ubuntu without them rotting away?
19:56:15 <vibhav> tumbleweed: I have this small sketch on this idea
19:56:50 <vibhav> I was involving popcon and the rate of FTBFS which would calculate a "rotting score"
19:56:57 <vibhav> s/I/It/
19:57:10 <micahg> why  not just push to Debian if someone cares about it?
19:57:34 <tumbleweed> that's what we generally try to encourage
19:57:36 <vibhav> micahg: Yes, I was wondering if I could talk to the debian folks aabout this idea
19:57:37 <micahg> and if no one cares about it, it will rot
19:57:56 <vibhav> The sketch is still not refined though
19:58:35 <vibhav> micahg, tumbleweed : THe truth still remains, the success of a platform is determined by its application developers
19:58:52 <vibhav> The*
19:58:54 <micahg> vibhav: that's extras :)
19:59:02 <tumbleweed> I suspect that may end up being solved by alternative repositories
19:59:06 <tumbleweed> yeah, extras
19:59:18 <ScottK> vibhav: I've seen some of the sponsor comments that some of your merges carry forward changes that don't need to be retained.  What will keep that from happening in the future if you're MOTU and no longer have things reviewed?
20:00:08 <vibhav> ScottK: I have extensively studied some of my mistakes, due to which my rate of upload has (relatively) reduced.
20:00:50 <ScottK> Can you give me any examples of cases where you realized you didn't know enough to decide what to do on your own and asked for help?
20:00:54 <vibhav> I have always tried to reflect on the changes I will be carrying on
20:02:06 <vibhav> ScottK: I dont remember many, but I remember making a sync request for a package I was going to merge, where the change was adding support for a platform which had been then obsoleted by Canonical
20:03:11 <ScottK> I do have concern that given your history, you don't always know when to stop and ask questions.
20:03:47 <ScottK> Being MOTU doesn't mean having to know everything, but knowing when to stop and ask precisely because you don't know everything is critical.
20:03:50 <vibhav> ScottK: I think you are right here, though I have always tried to *not* rush with my uploads
20:04:28 <vibhav> and I have improved a bit in my struggle
20:05:08 <tumbleweed> how much testing do you do before requesting sponsorship?
20:05:40 <vibhav> tumbleweed: I have an old Dell laptop lying around which I use as a build server
20:06:21 <tumbleweed> so, you test build
20:06:28 <tumbleweed> I assume you know how to test autopkgtests?
20:06:40 <vibhav> (via pbuilder)
20:06:40 <vibhav> tumbleweed: I now test all of my autopktest uploads
20:06:40 <vibhav> sure
20:07:06 <vibhav> tumbleweed: though pitti sometimes does that for me (internet)
20:07:29 <tumbleweed> do you ever install the debs you built, and see that they install correctly and/or the programs run?
20:08:02 <vibhav> tumbleweed: I did it for a recent FTBFS fix and always attempt it for merges
20:08:09 <tumbleweed> (I don't do this for every upload, but when I think there's some risk of it not working, I do)
20:08:16 <vibhav> I test syncs only by compiling
20:08:46 <vibhav> tumbleweed: of course, if the changes don't conflict, I sometimes hold of installing. I just build
20:08:58 <tumbleweed> assuming we gave you upload rights tonight, would you sync a library package tomorrow?
20:08:59 <vibhav> off, even
20:09:31 <vibhav> tumbleweed: FF is taken effect, I would certainly proceed with extreme caution
20:09:48 <tumbleweed> right, so what kind of things would make you say no, this is a bad idea?
20:09:49 <vibhav> s/is/has/
20:10:43 <vibhav> WE are going to hit Final Beta Freeze soon now
20:11:16 <vibhav> So, I wil upload it only if it has some _critical_ bugs
20:11:41 <tumbleweed> and what if it has new features, and some critical bug fixes?
20:12:10 <vibhav> tumbleweed: I think I wil request the release team to intervene
20:12:27 <vibhav> If they grant a FFE, sure
20:12:35 <micahg> vibhav: are all packages frozen at beta freeze?
20:13:21 <vibhav> micahg: no, the seeded packages
20:13:33 <vibhav> (that include official variants)
20:14:03 <vibhav> these packages do require the release team to approve
20:14:11 <stgraber> ok, we're out of time. Time to vote
20:14:24 <stgraber> #vote Vibhav Pant for MOTU
20:14:24 <meetingology> Please vote on: Vibhav Pant for MOTU
20:14:24 <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
20:15:29 <stgraber> +0 [My feeling based on the feedback I received and the present discussion is that you clearly have experience and technical skills, but I'm not confident that you know your limits and will ask when unsure.]
20:15:29 <meetingology> +0 [My feeling based on the feedback I received and the present discussion is that you clearly have experience and technical skills, but I'm not confident that you know your limits and will ask when unsure.] received from stgraber
20:16:00 <bdrung> +1 [ please ask questions if needed ]
20:16:00 <meetingology> +1 [ please ask questions if needed ] received from bdrung
20:17:21 <ScottK> -1
20:17:21 <meetingology> -1 received from ScottK
20:17:52 <tumbleweed> +0 [ The work looks good, but I'm concerned about the number of endorsers saying "slow down". for broad upload rights, I'd like some strong endorsements ]
20:17:52 <meetingology> +0 [ The work looks good, but I'm concerned about the number of endorsers saying "slow down". for broad upload rights, I'd like some strong endorsements ] received from tumbleweed
20:17:54 <ScottK> I think you're doing mostly good work, but I'd like to see more consistency, more questions, and a bit better understanding of feezes.
20:18:34 <stgraber> micahg: ?
20:19:13 <micahg> +0 [variety looks good, but number of iterations per fix still seem high]
20:19:13 <meetingology> +0 [variety looks good, but number of iterations per fix still seem high] received from micahg
20:19:15 <vibhav> ScottK: My exams had recently ended. So I was inactive for some time
20:19:24 <stgraber> #endvote
20:19:24 <meetingology> Voting ended on: Vibhav Pant for MOTU
20:19:24 <meetingology> Votes for:1 Votes against:1 Abstentions:3
20:19:24 <meetingology> Deadlock, casting vote may be used
20:19:26 <tumbleweed> hrm, I only spoke about endorsements, but that really means I want to see good evidence of understanding ones own limits, and asking for help when pushing the boundaries
20:19:53 <ScottK> vibhav: I'm sure you'll get this in time.  Keep going.
20:19:58 <vibhav> sure!
20:20:54 <stgraber> vibhav: sorry, you weren't successful this time around though everyone acknowledged that you are doing some good work, and I'm sure we'll see you apply again soon.
20:21:09 <vibhav> alrighty
20:21:24 <stgraber> vibhav: I also want to re-iterate what some others said, please slow down, take more time looking at the changes you make and when unsure, please ask someone before sending it for upload.
20:22:01 <vibhav> stgraber: I will surely try
20:22:28 <tumbleweed> oh, and good luck with those exams
20:22:32 <stgraber> alright, well, see you all in ~2 weeks (depending on whether we change day or not, will be decided by e-mail)
20:22:39 <stgraber> #endmeeting