14:14:59 #startmeeting Developer Membership Board 14:15:00 Meeting started Mon Nov 19 14:14:59 2012 UTC. The chair is tumbleweed. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. 14:15:00 14:15:00 Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired 14:15:17 #topic Review of previous action items 14:15:28 stgraber: is the wiki up to date, there? 14:15:45 they all belong to micahg, as usual: 14:15:49 micahg to document the zentyal packageset 14:15:50 micahg to ask docs people if they want to apply for a packageset 14:15:56 tumbleweed: yep 14:16:04 so, moving on 14:17:17 #topic Core Developer Application for Wookey 14:17:24 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Wookey/DeveloperApplication 14:17:31 wookey: would you care to introduce your application? 14:18:19 erm, yes. 14:18:51 I've been a DD for over a decade, and recently have been doing some Ubuntu work as side-effect of being in Linaro 14:19:09 I've doing things that affect $everything: cross-building, and multiarch 14:19:34 And when debian is frozen it makes sense to upload things to ubuntu directly 14:20:10 I've been filing patches for some time now and have been encouraged to apply for actual membership so I can do stuff without having to pester others for Ubuntu uploads 14:20:38 Obviously I can do Debian uploads as required already 14:21:11 that's the core of it 14:21:28 thanks 14:21:33 questions for wookey? 14:22:20 currently I'm doing the arm64 bootstrap, mostly in Ubuntu because the multiarch state is much more advanced here 14:22:29 sorry folks, system problems this morning :( 14:24:29 look - shiny results: http://people.linaro.org/~wookey/buildd/quantal-arm64/sbuild-ma/status-bootstrap.html 14:25:45 I assume everyone is still busy re-reading your appplication (or twiddling their thumbs or something) 14:25:54 wookey: are you subscribed to ubuntu-devel-announce? 14:25:57 Or there are no questions :-) 14:26:08 tumbleweed: I don't think so 14:26:24 Easy enough to fix 14:26:26 wookey: did any of ubuntu / lp systems require two names? 14:26:37 i just checked xdeb. the current situation looks good. 14:26:41 thanks, it's where freezes etc are announced 14:26:50 xnox: not that I recall - pleasingly little agravation on that front 14:27:08 wookey: ok cool. 14:27:08 yes xdeb is in maintenance mode now really 14:27:13 (for context http://wookware.org/name.html ) 14:27:22 multiarch is the one true way forward 14:29:17 OK. subscribed to ubuntu-devel-announce 14:29:49 wookey: you have experience in developing software for debian, ubuntu, and linaro. how would you compare the workflows, and what do you think would be the 1-3 most important things to do to improve developing and sharing s/w across all three communities? 14:30:03 The presuambly tell me when we enter 'stopped syncing' and 'feature freeze' etc? 14:30:22 Hmm. potentially long-answer question :-) 14:30:47 I was surprsied how much difference there is in internal process between debian and Ubuntu. 14:30:57 wookey: agreed 14:31:02 That part is almost completely different in many ways 14:31:28 Linaro was effectively just camping on ubuntu processes/machinery for 1st two years, but is now trying to separate itself 14:31:56 I think the sharing part is much more about culture than process 14:32:34 I pretty-much ignored Ubuntu for years, probably like many DDs as 'just another derivative' and not really anything I had to take much notice of beyond getting occaisional patch back 14:32:48 And that was just habit. 14:33:05 what changed then? 14:33:11 BUt once I had a reason to use it I found some thing easier to get done in Ubuntu than debian, due to very-fast patch turnaround 14:33:45 I got a job where a) official desktop was Ubuntu (ARM), and images being produced were ubuntu (linaro) 14:34:22 Now that I understand the Ubuntu processes I view Debian and Ubuntu as essentially 'the same thing' 14:34:45 And just do work fixes in both as much as possible, with a bias to doing it in Debian first as that's less work all round 14:35:18 I think zak has done a great job of getting Debian and Ubuntu to ignore each other less 14:35:45 wookey: quick question: when you work on ubuntu packages, do you generally apt-get source or bzr branch? 14:36:04 So I guess the answer to the question is 'nurture the projects that encourage upstreaming and cross-distro work' 14:36:19 I'm old-fashion - I apt-get source 14:36:37 I was just reading the merging page and thing that maybe I should look at useing that work-flow 14:36:42 thinking 14:37:09 Because it'll be easier to keep moving patches forward that aren't fully upstremaed yet. 14:37:16 wookey: cool, thanks for your answers (there's no right or wrong answer, i am just curious :) 14:37:29 wookey: So, let's say you want to get mythtv into precise-updates on the 15th of January 2013 for a fix that's just been published upstream. What would you do and what can you do? 14:37:36 It is hard work keeping track of patches in quantal/raring/unstable/experiemntal 14:38:32 I'd go read the ubuntu developer docs, and then probably ask someone to check 14:38:54 One good thing about ubuntu is that process is _much_ better documented than debian 14:39:55 how much do you currently know about the SRU process? did you do any SRU? 14:40:07 I have done a couple of SRUs yes 14:40:48 after this question is complete, we'll go to a vote 14:40:57 ok, so if you get a fix into Debian experimental that you want into precise-updates, where should you upload that fix? 14:42:10 sorry someon asking questions here 14:42:51 I was wondering today whether Ubuntu ever pulls from experiemntal. The docs say only from testing or unstable 14:43:01 So I presume you never do that. 14:43:23 well, you can manually sync from experimental, syncpackage lets you do that, we just don't do it automatically 14:44:01 so let's say you have the new version into raring (as it's where it needs to land first anyway), where do you go from there to get it into precise-updates? 14:44:08 we often sync from experimental when debian is in freeze 14:44:25 OK, so I guess I'd file an SRU requesting tosync/merge the version from experiemental 14:45:44 tumbleweed: I guess we're out of time, we probably should vote now 14:45:50 yeah 14:45:55 I don't know. I'd ask #release on IRC 14:46:28 #voters stgraber barry tumbleweed bdrung Laney 14:46:28 Current voters: Laney barry bdrung stgraber tumbleweed 14:46:40 #vote grant wookey core-dev rights? 14:46:40 Please vote on: grant wookey core-dev rights? 14:46:40 Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me) 14:47:56 +0 [Not satisfied regarding the knowledge of Ubuntu processes but on the other hand, I'm sure wookey will ask before doing anything he doesn't know] 14:47:56 +0 [Not satisfied regarding the knowledge of Ubuntu processes but on the other hand, I'm sure wookey will ask before doing anything he doesn't know] received from stgraber 14:48:46 +0 [more familiarity w/ubuntu process would be good, but i think by asking lots of question for bits you don't know, you'll be okay] 14:48:46 +0 [more familiarity w/ubuntu process would be good, but i think by asking lots of question for bits you don't know, you'll be okay] received from barry 14:50:25 +1 [ I'm also concerned about the ubuntu process knowledge, I am fairly confident that this wouldn't be dangerous to the project, but would expect more from a core-dev ] 14:50:25 +1 [ I'm also concerned about the ubuntu process knowledge, I am fairly confident that this wouldn't be dangerous to the project, but would expect more from a core-dev ] received from tumbleweed 14:50:40 err that was supposed to be +0, edting ftl 14:50:48 +0 14:50:48 +0 received from tumbleweed 14:51:13 bdrung: ? 14:53:32 +0 [ same option as the other voters ] 14:53:32 +0 [ same option as the other voters ] received from bdrung 14:53:44 #endvote 14:53:44 Voting ended on: grant wookey core-dev rights? 14:53:44 Votes for:0 Votes against:0 Abstentions:4 14:53:44 Deadlock, casting vote may be used 14:53:52 pish, meetingology 14:54:35 wookey: I'm sorry we couldn't accept your application right now. I suggest getting a little more experience with the procedures around SRUs and freezes 14:54:51 yeah. fair enough. It wasn;t me that said I was ready :-) 14:55:13 hope to see you again soon 14:55:21 I've usually dealing with unstable /letest, so have not worried about SRUs much 14:55:47 #topic Dmitry Shachnev's PPU application for retext and unity-mail 14:55:51 Hi barry, bdrung, stgraber, tumbleweed! 14:56:00 hi mitya57 14:56:06 mitya57: hi, we're able to run over time a little 14:56:10 wookey: I have no doubt that you are ready from a technical point of view but the freezes and SRU processes are important when contributing to the Ubuntu project so I hope to see you apply again soon 14:56:13 so, we should be able to process your application 14:56:21 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DmitryShachnev/PPUApplication 14:56:30 mitya57: please introduce yourself and your application 14:56:56 OK 14:57:00 I'm developer of ReText editor and some other smaller projects, usually written in Python 14:57:12 In Ubuntu, I'm involved with my apps, their dependencies, and some python stuff 14:57:28 Last week I was, for example, adding/fixing dep-8 tests for pygments, python-markdown and nose 14:57:46 Earlier this cycle I was involved with Python 3.3 transition of sphinx/python-docutils 14:58:02 I'm also Ubuntu packaging guide contributor and do some other random things 14:58:52 ... and I'm also Debian maintainer (since this spring) and member of some teams there (Python + JavaScript) 14:59:53 I would like to start with these two packages because these are my "oldest" ones and I've done more uploads for them than for anything else 15:00:05 I saw very little discussion of your Debian work on your application. For reference - http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=Dmitry%20Shachnev 15:01:15 tumbleweed, in fact, I'm having 4 unsponsored items in Debian right now, so that list will grow soon 15:01:17 (I hope) 15:01:20 :) 15:01:30 any questions for mitya57? 15:01:59 mitya57: why is unity-mail a native package? 15:02:29 bdrung, because it was written exclusively for Ubuntu and I maintain packaging in the same branch as source code 15:03:30 mitya57: maybe one day unity can be deployed on other systems than Ubuntu (e.g. Debian). will it be still good to have it as native package? 15:04:08 bdrung, I think it is possible to change format in future 15:04:16 but right now I don't see any need 15:04:42 * Laney phases in 15:04:52 Hi Laney 15:05:01 mitya57: how painful has it been working with quilt in udd branches? 15:05:46 barry: very painful (that's what i remember from my last try) 15:05:58 barry: for example, patches are stored applied by default but when I create a new patch, it doesn't get applied by default 15:06:18 mitya57: i know ;} 15:06:30 and also there are some packages whose maintainers don't care about making them build twice in a row, 15:06:43 so when you clone such a package from udd it won't build 15:06:49 mitya57: perhaps the build tools should help enforce that? 15:06:52 "nose" is my recent example 15:07:21 barry, of course, but I meant it's not perfect _by default_ 15:09:39 mitya57: in the meantime, we could improve the docs i suppose. i can't recall anywhere where this issue is even discussed (though it comes up in sponsor reviews) 15:11:05 mitya57: where you paying attention earlier, and did you subscribe to ubuntu-devel-announce? 15:11:24 tumbleweed: I am subscribed 15:11:38 "where" — you mean Debian vs Ubuntu? 15:12:07 If so, Ubuntu of course :) 15:12:08 *were 15:12:41 * tumbleweed is tired, long day of fighting fires at work 15:13:03 mitya57: so, when do we expect you to come back with a MOTU application? 15:14:25 tumbleweed, If I were writing my application today, I would apply for MOTU. But I was writing it in September (and today was the first slot suitable for me)... 15:14:45 ... so I decided to leave it as is. 15:15:59 it'd be nice to see work on a wider range of packages, for that 15:16:48 tumbleweed, that's in progress :) 15:16:57 as a DM, I assume you're already familiar with the upload process? 15:17:58 Yes, I am. The only difference is that our uploads are source-only, right? 15:18:01 yup 15:18:03 and you've the Ubuntu tools for syncing, finding merges you need to do, etc? 15:18:10 you've *seen* 15:18:25 yes, I have seen that 15:18:27 bdrung: you have a question? 15:18:29 mitya57: How does it come that you do your work in Debian first? 15:19:02 (besides the Ubuntu-only unity-mail) 15:19:03 bdrung, I had read that the Debian is primary place to upload new packages to, so I went there... 15:19:56 good to see that we communicate it clearly :) 15:19:57 ah, you said "do", not "did" 15:20:39 The ideal workflow for me is getting a package uploaded to Debian, and then getting it synced 15:21:08 the tool syncpackage is handy for doing the sync 15:21:31 bdrung, I meant that when I said I was familiar with the tools 15:22:14 ok, looks like we're done with questions 15:22:42 #vote grant mitya57 PPU rights on retext and unity-mail? 15:22:42 Please vote on: grant mitya57 PPU rights on retext and unity-mail? 15:22:42 Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me) 15:22:59 +1 looking forward to you coming back to apply for MOTU soon with a little more experience 15:22:59 +1 looking forward to you coming back to apply for MOTU soon with a little more experience received from Laney 15:23:03 +1 15:23:03 +1 received from bdrung 15:23:07 +1 15:23:07 +1 received from barry 15:23:09 +1 15:23:09 +1 received from tumbleweed 15:24:09 stgraber? 15:28:43 +1 15:28:43 +1 received from stgraber 15:29:02 #endvote 15:29:02 Voting ended on: grant mitya57 PPU rights on retext and unity-mail? 15:29:02 Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0 15:29:02 Motion carried 15:29:35 mitya57: btw, do you want to become an uploader (in Debian) of ubuntu-packaging-guide? 15:29:41 mitya57: welcome, we hope to see you back soon for MOTU rights 15:29:58 #topic any other business? 15:30:10 bdrung, I won't be against that 15:30:35 \o/ thanks everybody! 15:30:35 mitya57: feel free to add yourself to the list in the bzr branch. 15:30:38 next chair: barry 15:31:08 backup: cody-somerville 15:31:15 anything else? 15:31:53 reducing the after-meeting-things-to-do list 15:32:13 can we reduce or automate the paperwork? 15:33:29 not trivially, that i can think of 15:35:27 looks like we've run out of things to say 15:35:37 #endmeeting