18:05:14 <cielak> #startmeeting
18:05:14 <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov 15 18:05:14 2012 UTC.  The chair is cielak. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
18:05:14 <meetingology> 
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18:05:33 <cielak> sigh
18:05:36 <cielak> nevermind
18:05:44 <mhall119> what?
18:05:44 <mfisch> ?
18:05:48 <cielak> okay, so here is the agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accomplishments/Agenda
18:06:03 <mfisch> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accomplishments/Agenda
18:06:37 <cielak> first thing I'd like to consult concerns what we clarified on UDS
18:06:38 <mhall119> I think the chair has to do that
18:06:43 <mfisch> ok
18:06:55 <cielak> that the accomplishemnts should not be level-based
18:07:13 <mhall119> #topic Discussing whether general direction of project applies to the whole sysytem or just community accomplishments.
18:07:18 <mfisch> I think that was the direction we came back to yes
18:07:20 <mhall119> ^ cielak try pasting that
18:07:29 <cielak> #topic Discussing whether general direction of project applies to the whole sysytem or just community accomplishments.
18:07:39 <cielak> oh, cool
18:07:50 <mhall119> so, just to fill me in, what is the general direction that was talked about?
18:08:06 <cielak> okay, so my idea is that we may do the platform support level-based accomplishments, but disable this feature for community accoms
18:08:29 <cielak> this way third-party collections could make use of 'dificulty' fields in .accomplishment files
18:08:40 <cielak> but we would leave them unused for ubuntu-community-accomplishments
18:09:21 <mhall119> how would that field be used in the view/gallery?
18:09:45 <s-fox> sorry i'm late for the meeting, bad traffic
18:10:15 <cielak> I think that the details page might display a number of stars (1-5) for accomplishments etc, but that's more a design question
18:10:52 <cielak> what I mean is that it might make sense to implement support for such thing in the daemon, but since it's not cool for community accoms, this field would be not used for them
18:11:21 <cielak> and in case of community accoms a 'N/A' would be displayed instead of stars
18:11:25 <cielak> does that make sense?
18:11:35 <cielak> hey s-fox :)
18:11:49 <mhall119> and this would be enforced just be the approval process accomplishments go through?
18:12:33 <cielak> I am not sure how this applies to approval process
18:12:47 <mfisch> I want to avoid special logic for the community apps
18:12:51 <mfisch> accomps I mean
18:12:55 <mhall119> I mean, there wouldn't be something in the code that tries to stop it from being used for community accomplishments, right?
18:13:04 <cielak> true
18:13:38 <mhall119> ok
18:13:40 <mfisch> the accoms themselves would just leave it out
18:14:05 <cielak> I'm not sure if there is any special logic, just as field 'tips' is optional, so would 'difficulty' (or whatever) be
18:14:13 <mfisch> right
18:14:14 <mhall119> makes sense
18:14:18 <mfisch> I'm +1 on that
18:14:22 <mhall119> I have no objection to this
18:14:32 <cielak> cool, thanks :)
18:14:59 <cielak> I have also recently looked in how we can make daemon a DBus service, and I have two concerns about this solution
18:15:10 <cielak> #topic Feedback on starting the daemon as a dbus .service, causing it to be running regardless of user will.
18:15:27 <mfisch> what are the concerns?
18:15:36 <cielak> the point is that once we install a .service, the daemon will always be started when user logs in
18:15:47 <mfisch> Why?
18:15:53 <cielak> currently we give him a choice, and automatic startup is disablable
18:15:53 <mhall119> no, I think it can be only on-demand
18:15:58 <mfisch> yes it can be on-demand
18:16:05 <mfisch> when the first dbus call is made, dbus will launch it
18:16:30 <mfisch> and honestly that is standard operating procedure for almost everything
18:16:35 <mfisch> lenses and scopes for example
18:16:46 <cielak> hm, that's odd, from my tests it was always starting regardless of whether it was requested or not
18:16:57 <mhall119> so the "automatically at startup" would just call the dbus service during session startup, otherwise it waits until the user loads the viewer
18:17:17 <mhall119> cielak: do you have the Unity trophy lens?
18:17:23 <cielak> I do
18:17:27 <mhall119> that's probably starting it
18:17:29 <mfisch> thats whats launching it then
18:17:38 <cielak> aaah! this makes a lot of sense
18:17:46 <mfisch> I'm not even sure we need an automatically at startup field anymore
18:17:53 <cielak> so I'll be back to playing around with it, then ;)
18:17:59 <mhall119> it only makes sense as an option if the user doesn't have the lens
18:18:08 <mhall119> if you have the lens, it'll need to be running from startup
18:18:27 <mfisch> do we get notifications if the service is running but the app is closed?
18:19:08 <cielak> another thing I have notices with DBus (yet this problem was present even before I tried setting up a service) is the way the daemon is closed when user session ends
18:19:35 <cielak> I have discussed that with mfisch few weeks ago
18:19:44 <mfisch> what was the issue?
18:19:55 <cielak> what I ended up with, is that for some reason the daemon is killed when user logs out
18:20:06 <mfisch> the session is over at that point
18:20:06 <cielak> it does not receive a SIGTERM, it's simply killed
18:20:26 <mhall119> does it need to do any cleanup before it exits?
18:20:32 <cielak> yeah, it does
18:20:37 <mhall119> for what?
18:20:42 <cielak> removing the pidfile is a must
18:20:47 <mfisch> it doesn't get any signal?
18:20:57 <mhall119> what is the pidfile used for?
18:21:07 <mfisch> yeah thats a good question, I bet we dont need it anymore
18:21:12 <cielak> otherwise, if the pidfile is left, there is no way to distinguish if the daemon is running or not
18:21:20 <mfisch> sure there is
18:21:24 <mfisch> you query it on dbus
18:21:28 <mhall119> if we only start it via dbus, then dbus handles that
18:21:32 <cielak> what if it got stuck?
18:21:50 <mfisch> and "autostart" is handled by a simple dbus message too, not by manually launching it
18:21:53 <mhall119> dbus won't launch a new process if one is running
18:22:37 <cielak> ah, so again it's dbus who cares about that stuff
18:22:39 <mfisch> I think that the service getting stuck is another issue
18:22:51 <mfisch> yeah, once we let dbus launch us, we should let dbus handle everything
18:23:01 <mhall119> yeah, so basically what jono did with cron and pidfiles, dbus does automagically
18:23:02 <mfisch> having us manually start or kill a process that dbus started will lead to bad news
18:23:06 <mhall119> and dbus does it better ;)
18:23:06 <mfisch> yes
18:23:29 <cielak> odd that despite studying dbus for a week I have not discovered it's core goodies :)
18:23:43 <mhall119> you could study it for a year and still find surprises ;)
18:23:55 <mfisch> I've been debugging a dbus signal issue all week
18:24:00 <cielak> okay, so the conclusion is that I need to learn DBus more before I start playing with it at all, hehe ;)
18:24:14 <mhall119> playing makes you learn faster
18:24:23 <mhall119> breaking makes you learn faster still
18:24:24 <mfisch> I think it's simpler than that
18:24:34 <mfisch> remove all the cronjob/pid file code
18:24:47 <mfisch> change autostart from a launch to sending a dbus message
18:24:52 <mfisch> that will force dbus to start it
18:24:58 <mfisch> then you're done I think
18:25:06 <cielak> mfisch: actually, no way to remove it, as twistd relies on the file not existing
18:25:19 <mfisch> do we still need twistd?
18:25:46 <cielak> ooh, porting the code out of twistd now would be a really great deal
18:25:54 <cielak> I guess we do
18:25:59 <mfisch> what else does twistd give us?
18:26:02 <mhall119> what is twisted used for?
18:26:04 <cielak> all that @deferred stuff is twisd magic
18:26:32 <mhall119> I don't know enough about the daemon internals to know
18:26:42 <cielak> and it's meant to ensure our code is not multi-threading etc.
18:27:24 <cielak> don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to get rid of twistd
18:27:35 <mhall119> make jono re-write it in go
18:27:37 <mfisch> this needs more investigation
18:27:39 <mhall119> :)
18:28:02 <mfisch> I vote that we investigate more and revisit this
18:28:06 <cielak> mfisch: +1
18:28:24 <mhall119> +1
18:28:39 <cielak> okay, so let's move to next topic on my list
18:28:49 <cielak> #topic Sync up with the team on the idea of expanding the .accomplishment format to support keywords/tags.
18:29:03 <cielak> have you played with my latest MP for the viewer? I know mfisch did
18:29:18 <mfisch> cielak: I need to respond to you, will try to do that tonight
18:29:25 <cielak> mfisch: cool ;)
18:29:37 <mhall119> I haven't, no
18:30:00 <cielak> mhall119: basically it implements much quickler filtering + a search feature
18:30:14 <cielak> and I'd like to go one step further with te search feature
18:30:17 <mhall119> cielak: still using iconview?
18:30:49 <cielak> currently it looks just in the accomplsihment title, and because of that searching for 'CC' will not find community-council accoms
18:30:56 <cielak> mhall119: still!
18:31:27 <cielak> mhall119: the magic is to use GtkTreeModelFilter and never clear the main model
18:31:51 <cielak> my idea is that we may want to add an optional 'keywords' field in .accomplishment files
18:32:07 <cielak> which would list synonyms, common typos etc. for the accomplishment
18:32:25 <cielak> so that the search feature could check the title and the keywords
18:33:12 <mhall119> +1 for keywords
18:33:15 <cielak> that's gonna be easy to implement, yet I think all changes to .accomplishments format are worth discussing :)
18:33:40 <mfisch> +1 too for keywords
18:33:50 <cielak> awesome, thanks for your feedback ;)
18:33:59 <mfisch> lets file bugs to go back and add keywords to existing accomps too
18:34:25 <cielak> exactly, I guess this is a cool assignment for a new contributor
18:34:46 <mhall119> tag the bugs with "bitesize"
18:34:49 <cielak> quite easy, and helps to get familiar with accoms structure
18:35:09 <mhall119> having bitesize bugs makes it easy to point new contributors to a list of things they can do
18:35:10 <cielak> and since we are speaking about new contributors...
18:35:13 <cielak> #topic Looking for opportunities for new contributors and discussing how we should deal with suggesting work to them.
18:35:29 <mfisch> so i was thinking some about this
18:35:35 <cielak> there is at least 3 people who are willing to contribute
18:35:48 <mfisch> and the current process of doing a MP and what-not may be causing people to not contribute
18:36:02 <cielak> some of them are not interested in comtributing accoms, and I think they are very welcome to do some hacking in the viewer etc.
18:36:25 <mfisch> ah I was thinking of accomps writers
18:36:50 <cielak> mfisch: so you have ideas on how we can improve accomps writers experience?
18:37:24 <mfisch> no great ideas, but I wonder if the LP merge process is stopping people
18:37:33 <mhall119> so in my experience, this is what I'd recommend:
18:37:35 <mfisch> perhaps the script writing is also a problem
18:37:40 <s-fox> mfisch,  the merge thing was akward to learn, but not that difficult once you get your head around it
18:37:48 <s-fox> that is my experience anyway :)
18:37:50 <mhall119> 1) Give a list of specific targets (like adding keywords to existing accoms)
18:38:03 <mhall119> 2) Give detailed step-by-step instructions for how to do it
18:38:06 <cielak> on the other hand, there was noone who contacted us in terms of not being able to send their contribution
18:38:27 <mhall119> 3) Give detailed step-by-step instructions for how to submit it (bzr commit, bzr push, create an MP, etc)
18:38:52 <mhall119> 4) Blog about it (get jono to promote your blog post)
18:39:17 <mhall119> 5) Mosty importantly, publicaly thank the people who do contribute, seeing others get praise motivates people to get involved too
18:39:35 <mfisch> I'd like a blog post to include some specific ideas for ones people can write
18:39:40 <mfisch> I know we have a todo list somewhere
18:40:02 <cielak> mhall119: agreed, except for the blog part this is what I usually do
18:40:07 <mfisch> I guess that's what mhall119 said in 1)
18:40:23 <cielak> mfisch: I have some more bitesize bugs to fill in
18:40:24 <mhall119> http://mhall119.com/2012/02/contributing-to-unity-for-non-developers-keywords/ is an example you can look at, I got a lot of new contributors adding keywords to .desktop files with that
18:40:47 <cielak> where is ours todo list so that I can add this ideas there?
18:41:25 <cielak> mhall119: ooh, cool guide, we surely need something like that
18:41:40 <mhall119> cielak: write one ;)
18:41:42 <mfisch> lets take a todo for that
18:41:46 <cielak> I surely will
18:42:00 <mfisch> I can help write it, just worried about over-committing to stuff right now
18:42:06 <mfisch> nexus7 is still crazy
18:42:25 <mhall119> mfisch: fix the primary-mouse-button-getting-stuck bug :P
18:43:01 <cielak> If I recall correctly, the accoms-writing guide had detailed instructions on how to use bzr to submit changes
18:43:14 <cielak> they may need refreshing, though
18:43:46 <cielak> any more ideas on what simple activities we may assign to newcommers?
18:44:17 <cielak> also, smartboyhw wanted to contribute new accoms, but we're running out of reasonable ideas
18:44:43 <mhall119> nope, just make sure you always give an over-abundance of information.  People don't get discouraged by being told what they already know, but they will get discouraged if they're not told something they do need to know
18:44:57 <cielak> yeah, totally :)
18:45:02 <mfisch> there's got to me hundreds of ideas for desktop
18:45:17 <mfisch> install ubuntu on ARM is one I'm a fan of
18:45:31 <mhall119> +1 for desktop, just get people to go through the apps on their Launcher and think of accomplishments they can write for each
18:45:51 <cielak> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accomplishments/AccomplishmentIdeas/LocalAccomplishments
18:45:57 <cielak> this may be worth refreshing too
18:46:33 <mhall119> One benefit of the "write something for an app on your launcher" is that they will be targetting an app they commonly use
18:46:51 <mfisch> cielak: lets take an action to update that wiki page with ideas
18:47:13 <mhall119> someone might have no interest in deja dup or gwibber, but if they have Tomboy notes stuck to their launcher, they would probably know what kind of accomplishments to write for that
18:47:39 <cielak> agreed
18:47:46 <mfisch> "Tomboy didn't erase my notes for 3 months"
18:48:05 <mhall119> also, we talked at UDS about getting new icon images for people to use, that would be a good way for artists to get involved
18:48:14 <mhall119> mfisch: oh come on now
18:48:20 <mhall119> we should make them something possible
18:48:28 <mfisch> lol
18:48:39 <cielak> I guess Martin took the artwork work item
18:48:40 * mhall119 happens to love Tomboy and hasn't lost anything in years
18:48:53 <mhall119> cielak: yeah, but there are more artists than just him
18:49:02 <cielak> sure :)
18:49:34 <cielak> I thought it might be appropriate to contact him and suggest he lead the artwork update
18:49:55 <mhall119> is there a website other than the wiki for the Accomplishments project?
18:49:58 <cielak> it may be easier for him to reach for other artists and cooperate
18:50:04 <cielak> nope
18:50:14 <cielak> except for trophies.ubuntu.com
18:50:18 <mhall119> if he has time, he took several work items this UDS
18:50:58 <cielak> anyway, contacting him would be fair
18:51:19 <mhall119> yeah, maybe he could write a blog calling for more artist contributors
18:51:34 <cielak> indeed
18:51:42 <s-fox> you know i could ask the arty types on the ubuntu forums for help if you want.
18:51:51 <mhall119> s-fox: that's a good idea too
18:52:13 <mhall119> we might want a list of "wanted" images
18:52:18 <s-fox> i mean they are great for producing icons for developers
18:52:40 <mhall119> I'm thinking we could use a Ribbon, a medal, a certificate, etc
18:53:04 <mhall119> maybe a couple variations on the current trophy image
18:53:16 <s-fox> I know what i'd like to see, have the ask ubuntu icons match what they are on the website
18:53:27 <mhall119> +1
18:53:31 <cielak> +1!
18:53:53 <mhall119> all of that should go into a call for artist contributors, so they have a list of things they know we want
18:54:17 <mhall119> for the askubuntu ones, someone would need to check on copyright license for them
18:54:27 <mhall119> mfisch: ^^
18:54:47 <mfisch> ok
18:54:51 <mhall119> thanks
18:54:55 <mfisch> we can ask jorge
18:55:03 <mhall119> ok, I can do that
18:55:05 <s-fox> even if we can't use those exact icons it would be good to have something like a ribbon?
18:55:12 <mhall119> yeah
18:55:31 <mhall119> also, let's ask for these in SVG, so we can easily re-color them, or add to them, etc
18:55:37 <mfisch> +1
18:55:39 <cielak> svg is a must
18:55:49 <cielak> we might want to change icon size one day
18:55:57 <cielak> + it is different in the lens
18:56:13 <s-fox> i thought svg was just for vectors?  wouldn't we want something like a psd or whatever gimp uses?
18:56:34 <mfisch> we can render svg though
18:56:42 <s-fox> ahh :)
18:57:04 <mhall119> svg would be just as good, just edit it in Inkscape
18:57:11 <cielak> indeed ;)
18:57:27 <cielak> with 3 minutes left I should ask if anyone has something else to discuss?
18:57:39 <cielak> s-fox, any progress on forum accomplishments?
18:58:14 <s-fox> not touched it cielak , it looks like the ubuntu forums might actually be getting the upgrade soon so the html might change
18:58:28 <cielak> ooh
18:58:35 <cielak> ideally the accoms would be html-independent
18:58:43 <cielak> I am not sure how much this is doable, though
18:58:47 <s-fox> trying to get an idea as to when it will happen. no point spending time on making it work when the structure of the page might change
18:58:58 <cielak> true
18:59:08 <s-fox> especially if it looks like it might come in before the new year
18:59:12 <mfisch> speaking of that, cielak I'm going to wait on pep8 until your search stuff is done
18:59:40 <s-fox> i am looking forward to doing more with regex though! :D
18:59:59 <cielak> then again, the search stuff is waiting for your review ;) so whenever you'll have some spare time
19:00:13 <mhall119> s-fox: wasn't there a forums API we were going to get?
19:00:33 <cielak> mhall119: haha!
19:01:12 <cielak> mhall119: let me find you the link to the ticket
19:01:26 <s-fox> mhall119,  we were met with silence. twice i believe
19:01:34 <mhall119> ah, ok
19:01:36 <mhall119> nvm then
19:01:36 <cielak> mhall119: https://rt.ubuntu.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=19790
19:01:38 <s-fox> jono even poked them for a response
19:02:08 <cielak> we can't wait endlessly, so we'll use a workaround
19:02:19 <mhall119> ok
19:02:20 <cielak> okay, anyone has something more to discuss?
19:03:08 <s-fox> maybe channel promotion ?
19:03:23 <cielak> what do you mean?
19:03:56 <s-fox> mind you , i suppose that would come with getting more people involved with the project anyway
19:04:12 <cielak> likely ;)
19:04:44 <cielak> okay, so thanks everyone for coming and your feedback, have a nice day!
19:04:57 <cielak> #endmeeting