19:02:34 #startmeeting Developer Membership Board Meeting 19:02:34 Meeting started Mon Sep 10 19:02:34 2012 UTC. The chair is cody-somerville. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. 19:02:34 19:02:34 Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired 19:02:40 infinity: :-) 19:03:10 #topic Review of previous action items 19:03:19 #subtopic micahg to document the zentyal packageset 19:03:32 impossible as the API doesn't allow it :) 19:03:50 * micahg will file bug for that 19:03:59 micahg, Ack 19:04:18 and I may even fix it, I did a rocketfuel-setup, intending to have a look... 19:04:28 * stgraber waves 19:04:40 #accepted Impossible as the API doesn't allow it - micahg will file bug. Tumbleweed may look to fix it. 19:04:55 #subtopic laney to delete network-manager packageset 19:05:08 I don't think Laney is making it today. 19:05:11 Carrying action item 19:05:37 #action laney to delete network-manager packageset 19:05:37 * meetingology laney to delete network-manager packageset 19:05:49 #subtopic laney to contact menesis about schooltool packageset 19:05:56 also can't be done without lp changes 19:06:14 #action laney to delete network-manager packageset (may require lp changes however) 19:06:14 * meetingology laney to delete network-manager packageset (may require lp changes however) 19:06:18 tumbleweed: removing package sets? 19:06:24 #subtopic laney to contact TB to see if netbook/unr/mobile packagesets are still needed 19:06:43 Action is reported as done in agenda 19:07:05 #accepted TB was contacted regarding continued need for netbook/unr/mobile packagesets 19:07:13 #subtopic stgraber to add ppu for lexical to fwts 19:07:23 I believe that was done, let me check 19:07:34 yep 19:07:54 #accepted Added PPU for lexical to fwts 19:08:06 #topic Ubuntu Core Developer Applications 19:08:32 #subtopic Ubuntu Core Developer Application: Ricardo Salveti 19:08:42 * rsalveti o/ 19:08:55 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RicardoSalveti/CoreDevApplication 19:09:19 stgraber: yes 19:09:29 rsalveti, Hello. Please introduce yourself and your application. 19:09:39 sure 19:10:23 my name is Ricardo Salveti, working and living in Brazil, mostly involved with ARM related activities over the past few years 19:11:11 I'm a canonical employee, currently allocated at Linaro working as the team lead for the developer platform team, which is responsible of creating and maintaining the Ubuntu Linaro Evaluation Builds 19:11:59 these Ubuntu LEBs are currently based on both the last stable release and the current one, which we use to integrate and deliver the linaro specific projects and developments 19:12:43 so in the end we can provide an image that can be used in many different development boards, helping the development and validation before the code from the other working groups can be integrated at upstream 19:12:49 or even at the ubuntu archive 19:13:00 in the past I also worked at the old ubuntu arm team 19:13:18 mostly during the maverick/natty cycles, helping improving the ARM support in general 19:13:52 as a generalist, I'm usually involved on coding and bugfixes all across the os, from bootloader, kernel, init system and X11 19:14:30 I also worked improving and enabling the OpenGL ES2.0 support at the archive, for arm, so we could have accelerated rendering with our supported boards 19:14:33 such as Pandaboard 19:15:07 also helping getting Unity 3d to properly work on ARM, by helping with coding/bugfixes and also package updates 19:15:38 rsalveti, Do you find the Ubuntu release and development processes provides downstream consumers such as Linaro with a reliable and stable foundation to build custom solutions and product on top of? What were some of the pain points in this regard and how would you go about fixing them? 19:15:47 for Quantal I'm glad that we were finally able to get the PowerVR SGX driver in place, letting us releasing the desktop image for Panda during B1 19:16:35 cody-somerville: usually, yes, but we had to deal with a few issues as well 19:17:06 the first one happened when we decided to generate our own rootfs, based on ubuntu 19:17:24 as live-build wasn't that supported at that time 19:17:51 but lately that improved once the live-build support was improved at ubuntu (around oneiric?), and we were also able to cross-bootstrap it with qemu 19:18:01 making it a lot easier for us to customize the image at the build time 19:18:16 another issue we got was the lack of proper cross build support 19:18:36 as specially for ARM, the engineers are quite used to just use cross-compilation for everything 19:18:59 and as on ubuntu we officially just support native build, that was a bit of a pain for those developers 19:19:20 luckily that was improved a lot with multi-arch support, but it's still not looking very nice 19:19:45 http://people.linaro.org/~wookey/buildd/precise/sbuild-ma/status-bootstrap.html 19:19:47 one example 19:20:03 I think we also got one for quantal this week 19:20:24 wookey is working on setting up a buildd to try to verify the cross-build support for our packages 19:20:27 using multi-arch 19:20:56 but currently I think perf is one of the main issues, as porting it to multi-arch and getting it able to be cross-buildable is a pain 19:21:00 *perl 19:21:18 rsalveti, Is that work that you hope will make it into Ubuntu at some point? 19:21:59 and the last one, which we got from ARM, is that once the release is done, the src packages from updates/security can be replaced with new package updates 19:22:27 and that is an issue specially when they got an image which can't easily be updated, and they want/need the src/dbg packages from one specific version which is not available anymore 19:23:03 cody-somerville: we're working to get this supported at ubuntu for a while already, hopefully this time it'll be enough to bootstrap the Aarch64 more easily 19:23:32 The last issue: Is that an issue with how you deliver your package updates to customers or an issue with Ubuntu's archives? 19:23:48 our goal is to also work helping debian/ubuntu with the aarch64 port later this year, so at least for a minimum rootfs it's quite useful to be able to cross-build them 19:24:07 * stgraber remembers getting quite a few patches from wookey to support cross-building of various bits of the archive 19:24:53 cody-somerville: the problem happens once the vendor updates the image, but later wants to debug one specific package that was also updated at the updates/security pocket 19:25:14 rsalveti, Do you see a future where official packages in the Ubuntu archive could be generated via cross-building instead of needing to all be done on native hardware? 19:25:18 then he's unable to find the older version by just using apt-get 19:26:12 cody-somerville: I think so (we also discussed in the past the support for cross-build at launchpad), but the problem is the amount of time it takes to get that in place 19:26:27 it might be the same time where we'll be getting huge armv8 servers around 19:26:33 (There are reasons other than time why not to do it) 19:26:39 then the cross build is not that relevant anymore 19:26:54 infinity: sure, but even for development/experimental support 19:28:00 so I believe it's good to be able to cross build packages, specially now that we have multi-arch support 19:28:16 but I don't see it becoming an official/supported way by ubuntu 19:28:22 rsalveti, Do you have any major goals that you'd like to achieve in the next six months if you were to become a Ubuntu core developer? 19:29:22 cody-somerville: keep improving the support for the current arm targets, but also helping the support for other devices, such as the A10 based tablets/servers/dongles etc 19:29:51 I think those variants will become quite relevant in a few months, specially because they are incredibly cheap 19:30:08 also, helping with the Aarch64 port as well 19:30:20 (which is our current focus at linaro) 19:31:14 and, there's still a lot of work to make the opengl related packages at the archive also compatible with OpenGL ES 19:32:10 rsalveti, Being a Ubuntu Core Developer isn't just about upload permissions, it also means being a leader. Can you describe a situation or an issue in the Ubuntu community where you've shown leadership? 19:33:07 I think specially with the pandaboard/beagle users, where they are always pushing and requiring better support for their own use cases 19:33:34 I always try to help at the #ubuntu-arm channel with any board specific issue, and also helping them becoming more interested at Ubuntu 19:33:48 by providing an easy way to consume ubuntu, and also build whatever they like on top of it 19:34:02 so that's why getting the opengles drivers integrated by default was a quite important step 19:34:13 I think that ubuntu was the first arm distro that got the drivers integrated at the archive 19:34:21 first for the omap3 boards, and later for omap4 19:34:45 which helped people developing the opengles support at unity, but also for others that were consuming and developing applications on top of Qt 19:34:51 using the opengles support for it 19:36:45 rsalveti, What motivated you to apply to become a Ubuntu Core Developer? Is there any reason you haven't applied previously for MOTU? 19:37:46 cody-somerville: that's a funny fact, I thought about applying to motu first, and that's how I became an ubuntu universe contributor (at that time it wasn't clear what team/permission would be related with motu) 19:38:20 I remember we had even wiki pages showing that ubuntu universe contributor would be just like a motu 19:38:28 but I found later on that it wasn't that way still 19:38:47 but then, as most of the packages I was changing at ubuntu was part of main, I just decided to apply to core-dev directly 19:40:46 specially after working and contributing to ubuntu for almost 5 releases 19:45:22 Any other questions? 19:45:44 rsalveti: are you subscribed to ubuntu-devel-announce? 19:45:52 stgraber: yes 19:46:16 hm, maybe not announce, let me check 19:46:29 * rsalveti is subscribed to so many ubuntu related mls 19:46:34 rsalveti: you mention that you don't like the kernel SRU process, this has actually been measurably improved in the past few years, did you have any specific ideas on how it can be even better? 19:47:13 rsalveti: ubuntu-devel-announce is where all the freezes are announced, so it's really a must read before uploading anything 19:47:43 stgraber: oh, true, I usually prefer to follow the release meetings at every friday 19:48:14 that works too (same information) 19:48:31 micahg: I think specially on the kernel side, the kernel stable updates are updated more frequently nowadays 19:48:47 guess after the qa side of ubuntu got a bit of more focus, that also improved on that direction as well 19:49:03 but it's common to find bugfixes waiting for more than one month 19:49:31 they have a 3 week cadence, so if you miss the train, you get on the next one 19:49:35 which I think can upset a few users, as it can take quite a while to get some minor but important fixes in place 19:50:10 the problem is that you'll always have more fixes to get in, it should only be up to 3 weeks for a new kernel to hit proposed where people can grab it if they need it sooner 19:50:13 I believe for an lts 3 weeks might make sense, not so sure for the other releases 19:50:29 rsalveti: the problem is the time to verify all the fixes across the board 19:50:41 they just barely make it in 3 weeks now AIUI 19:50:49 yup :-( I know the pain 19:51:04 it's also common for the reporter to disappear 19:51:13 rsalveti: another question for you :) 19:51:15 rsalveti: Let's say you're a core dev, we are on the 21st of September 2012 and you have two packages that you want to upload, not containing any new feature. vlc and python-gevent. Should you upload these to the archive? If not, why? 19:52:53 after the -freeze, like beta-2, I'd first make sure I have the bugs opened and with proper explanation about why they need to be fixed 19:53:22 and then go to #ubuntu-release to request more info if I should update those packages or not, and then push to the archive 19:53:40 if they are not critical enough, otherwise going to -proposed might be the way to go 19:54:29 at times near release I don't want to push anything that's not well communicated at #ubuntu-release 19:54:32 well, you should really only be poking #ubuntu-release for things that are seeded 19:54:59 which of these two packages (if any) are part of these packages that are frozen for the milestone? 19:55:12 s/seeded/on images/ before final freeze 19:56:05 We'll now move to the vote. 19:56:08 #vote Ubuntu Core Developer Application: Ricardo Salveti 19:56:08 Please vote on: Ubuntu Core Developer Application: Ricardo Salveti 19:56:08 Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me) 19:56:14 python-gevent is part of main 19:56:26 but I think we have a freeze for universe as well at some point, right? 19:56:44 quite near the final freeze 19:57:35 stgraber: but I would only push a package at this point if it can be useful for the image, otherwise it might be good to wait for the release 19:57:42 not necessarily for universe packages, sure 19:57:45 +1 based on interview, contributions, and endorsements. 19:57:45 +1 based on interview, contributions, and endorsements. received from cody-somerville 19:58:33 well, apparently cody-somerville started the vote already, so I'll just quickly explain why I chose these two packages 19:59:04 vlc is part of mythbuntu so is covered by the milestone freeze but ONLY for LTS releases, so not for 12.10 where it can be freely uploaded until final freeze 19:59:05 rsalveti: main/universe is much less important than affects an image/doesn't affect an image 19:59:10 (universe final freeze) 19:59:36 yup, true 19:59:52 python-gevent is only on the Edubuntu media AFAIK as a dependency of python-x2go (universe) but that means it's part of the milestone freeze and shouldn't be uploaded without explicit approval of the release team 20:00:03 that's why I'd first go to #ubuntu-release, I know we have many variants around 20:00:06 +1 20:00:06 +1 received from barry 20:00:07 rsalveti: do you know what tool to use whether a package is seeded and what media it might affect? 20:01:05 +1 20:01:05 +1 received from stgraber 20:01:10 +1 20:01:10 +1 received from tumbleweed 20:01:17 +1 20:01:17 +1 received from micahg 20:01:52 stgraber: seeded-in-ubuntu, but also look at the seeds file 20:02:55 #endvote 20:02:55 Voting ended on: Ubuntu Core Developer Application: Ricardo Salveti 20:02:55 Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0 20:02:55 Motion carried 20:03:06 rsalveti: yep, seeded-in-ubuntu is good for that. Grepping through the seeds works too but I prefer to let germinate do the calculation :) 20:03:08 rsalveti, Congratulations and welcome to the Ubuntu Core Developer team. 20:03:24 stgraber: yeah :-) 20:03:26 \o/ 20:03:29 \o/ 20:03:32 thanks all folks 20:03:44 glad to be part of the team 20:03:46 rsalveti: congrats 20:03:48 #topic AOB 20:03:49 and proud as well 20:04:00 Is there any other business for the board? 20:04:43 If not, the next chair will be tumbleweed. 20:04:45 #endmeeting