19:04:24 #startmeeting 19:04:24 Meeting started Mon May 21 19:04:24 2012 UTC. The chair is micahg. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. 19:04:24 19:04:24 Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired 19:04:55 #topic Review of previous action items 19:05:11 I don't seem to recall any that need discussing and the wiki isn't showing any either 19:05:22 anyone have anything to discuss WRT this? 19:06:06 * micahg takes that as a no, moving on 19:06:07 I think we took care of all past actions during the last meeting, that's unless we count the recuring action for cody-somerville to write that wiki page on testimonials, but this one has been there for more than 6 months now :) 19:06:23 * micahg also has a recurring action item that he'll get to next week 19:06:54 #topic Cesare Falco PPU 19:07:05 cfalco: are you around? 19:07:11 hi all! 19:07:16 #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/c.falco/DeveloperApplication 19:07:16 * tumbleweed looks for an IRC log for the previous conversation 19:08:01 #link http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/04/23/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t19:35 19:08:12 ah, thanks 19:11:09 cfalco: so, continuing from last time, if a few files moved from one package to another, let's say mame -> mame-common, what changes would need to made to the packaging to accommodate this 19:11:21 *to be made 19:11:40 depends 19:11:58 micahg: your question is a reminder for me for the vlc PPA package. ;) 19:12:31 @micahg: what's vlc? :o 19:12:31 cfalco: Error: "micahg:" is not a valid command. 19:12:54 cfalco: vlc is a package that bdrung maintains in Debian 19:12:56 micahg: what's vlc? :o 19:13:03 ah ok :) 19:13:20 mame should depend on mame-common 19:14:22 and maybe also a breaks or something, or dpkg could have trouble in removing mame before installing mame-common 19:14:49 but before doing anything I would check the debian policy ;) 19:14:51 let's assume you already had mame and mame-common, and so mame was already depending on mame-common 19:15:04 but you moved a file from mame to mame-common 19:15:48 I guess replace is only suitable when *all* files get moved 19:15:53 correct? 19:17:38 replaces isn't what you think it would be 19:19:38 cfalco: do you know where to look up these things? 19:19:46 micahg: ok, so I assume I should use replace? 19:19:58 micahg: http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-relationships.html 19:21:16 well, I'd like you to tell me the changes :) (and that's the right link) 19:22:24 ok both, replaces: and breaks: :$ 19:22:47 and we were assuming depends: from the start 19:23:26 I must admit I thought replaces: is only suitable when *all* files are to be replaced 19:23:52 for which packages and are they versioned? 19:24:16 cfalco: yeah, replaces is slightly counterintuitive from the non-packaging definition 19:25:34 micahg: the version I'm packaging... i.e I'm packaging mame-common 2.0: -> Replaces: mame (<< 2.00) 19:25:52 where << is strictly less than iirc 19:25:57 cfalco: cool, thanks 19:26:10 cfalco: which tools will you use to sync a package from Debian to Ubuntu? 19:27:40 bdrung: I guess it's syncpackage, but I still have to read all the documentation on this 19:28:05 cfalco: why not just use dput? 19:30:17 bdrung: I see it preserves the checksums and I'm not sure dput would do that 19:31:23 cfalco: dput can preserve the checksums, but it opens a window for errors. that's why using syncpackage is recommended. 19:31:52 cfalco: are you subscribed to ubuntu-devel-announce? 19:32:04 not yet 19:32:25 please do, it's where freezes are announced 19:32:31 (amongst other useful things) 19:33:20 tumbleweed: I'll do it for sure :D 19:33:36 cfalco: i see that mame is out of sync b/w ubuntu and debian. what are your plans for sync'ing them and how would you go about doing that? 19:34:40 barry: mame 0.146 has just been released today, it will mark the first release synced from Debian 19:34:51 \o/ 19:35:25 cfalco: cool. do you foresee any reason for ubuntu to carry deltas from debian in the future? 19:36:22 barry: no, I'm working with the debian maintainers and we will make things suitable for both distros as much as we can 19:36:57 cfalco: great, thanks 19:37:32 cfalco: btpd is only available in Ubuntu. are there plans to get it into Debian? 19:38:58 bdrung: no at present, but I'd like to. I find it very useful, but it seems nobody else is interested. 19:39:42 cfalco: how did you come to the conclusion that nobody is interested? 19:40:16 bdrung: is the utnubu team still active? maybe I could find some help from them. 19:40:35 bdrung: I have no feedbacks in ubuntu, let alone debian... ;) 19:41:03 cfalco: there are a bunch of ubuntu people who are DDs. I'm working on a list that makes them easy to find 19:41:34 tumbleweed: cool! is it in the wiki? 19:41:41 cfalco: dunno if utnubu is still active, but debian mentors is up and running. 19:42:28 DEX has superseded utnubu for the most part AIUI 19:42:45 Ubuntu DEX to be more specific 19:42:51 yeah, you don't need ubuntu-developers to sponsor it, any debian sponsor will do. But obviously ubuntu people have extra motivation to help us get ubuntu packagesinto Debian 19:43:04 the list is here, but doesn't show who the DDs are yet http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~stefanor/debian-ubuntu-developers/ 19:44:12 I see micahg is a DEX member, right? :) 19:44:32 yeah, with no Debian uploads 19:44:44 * micahg needs to fix that 19:45:33 cfalco: are you familiar with how to request a freeze exception and when it's appropriate 19:46:22 micahg: i did it once for btpd, for a minor fix in a configuration file iirc 19:47:03 it was long ago, I'd need to check the wiki :$ 19:47:17 cfalco: ok, you know where that is? 19:48:03 micahg: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess 19:48:11 cfalco: great 19:48:15 ok, any more questions? 19:48:36 yes 19:48:54 cfalco: what changes with DIF? 19:50:49 bdrung: after dif packages with differences between ubuntu and debian must be imported explicitly by a developer 19:51:43 cfalco: are package with differences between ubuntu and debian synced automatically before the DIF? 19:52:53 bdrung: I guess no, as the version is different 19:53:21 I mean the 0ubuntuNN suffix 19:53:33 cfalco: then i have to ask again: what is the different before and after the DIF? 19:54:10 because packages with 0ubuntuNN needs to be always synced manually 19:54:16 (or merged) 19:55:35 bdrung: I guess it's like the "main" freeze 19:56:03 I mean, before dif you sync the package 19:56:18 after dif you ask something like a freeze exception 19:56:50 no: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebianImportFreeze 19:57:04 new versions of packages will be automatically imported from Debian where they have not been customized for Ubuntu 19:57:29 that's before the DIF and it needs to be done manually afterwards 19:57:55 bdrung: so no syncpackage is required on a non-customised package before dif? 19:57:56 you are still allowed to sync packages with new features after DIF 19:58:04 cfalco: exactly 19:58:13 bdrung: great 19:58:44 that is unless you have an immediate need in the devel release (bug fix needed immediately, FTBFS, NBS) 19:58:47 and should a new version be put in debian after dif I'll have to manually sync it in ubuntu, right? 19:58:58 yup 19:59:21 ok, we need to vote 19:59:22 bdrung, micahg, tumbleweed: thanks! 19:59:56 #voters bdrung, cody-somerville, Laney, micahg, barry, tumbleweed, stgraber 19:59:56 Current voters: Laney barry bdrung cody-somerville micahg stgraber tumbleweed 20:00:10 posh 20:00:15 #vote Cesare Falco PPU for btpd and mame 20:00:15 Please vote on: Cesare Falco PPU for btpd and mame 20:00:15 Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me) 20:00:39 +1 20:00:39 +1 received from Laney 20:00:52 +1 20:00:52 +1 received from tumbleweed 20:00:54 +1 20:00:54 +1 received from barry 20:00:55 +1 20:00:55 +1 received from bdrung 20:01:23 +1 20:01:23 +1 received from micahg 20:01:34 stgraber: ? 20:01:39 +0 [would have liked to see better pre-meeting knowledge of the Ubuntu processes and freezes] 20:01:39 +0 [would have liked to see better pre-meeting knowledge of the Ubuntu processes and freezes] received from stgraber 20:02:21 #endvote 20:02:21 Voting ended on: Cesare Falco PPU for btpd and mame 20:02:21 Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1 20:02:21 Motion carried 20:02:30 cfalco: congratulations 20:02:48 thanks anyone! :) 20:02:50 #action stgraber to give cfalco PPU for btpd and mame 20:02:50 * meetingology stgraber to give cfalco PPU for btpd and mame 20:02:57 #action micahg to add cfalco to ubuntu-dev 20:02:57 * meetingology micahg to add cfalco to ubuntu-dev 20:04:01 #topic PPU for Jorge Salamero Sanz 20:04:07 #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JorgeSalamero/PerPackageDeveloperApplication 20:04:41 cfalco: one last thing, just want to encourage you to come to #ubuntu-motu with any questions 20:04:46 micahg: action done 20:04:51 stgraber: thanks 20:04:57 bencer: can you introduce yourself? 20:05:00 hi all 20:05:08 I'm Jorge Salamero aka bencer 20:05:18 micahg: sure, thank you! :) 20:05:46 I'm a DD since a few years already, now I'm working on eBox Technologies, the company behind Zentyal (previously eBox Platform) 20:06:15 I'm applying for PerPackage rights to upload zentyal packages to Universe, eventually main if we make it 20:06:49 I've been working on the packages, although is jacalvo, the product manager the one making the releases 20:07:15 and I also have pushed all the needed deps via Debian and then requesting the sync 20:07:36 I was in Oakland on the UDS, holding 4 sessions on Zentyal / Ubuntu integration 20:08:14 and seems that we made a good progress making people aware of Zentyal and for Q we have some blueprints we are going to work together with Edubuntu ppl 20:08:49 I think that's it :) 20:10:15 micahg: any questions? 20:11:13 bencer: hi. i noticed that zentyal is only in ubuntu currently. you're a dd - why isn't zentyal in debian? 20:11:52 barry: zentyal uses some ubuntu specific stuff 20:12:05 like upstart, appamor and specially the versions of the packages 20:12:26 i always say that would take 3-4 days work to make it fully working on debian 20:12:28 upstart and apparmor are in Debian (not entirely functional yet, but that's a WIP) 20:12:30 but we dont have the time 20:12:40 i know, its wip 20:13:08 once they are updated and available and working, would you then be interested in pushing this work up? 20:13:15 but probably the biggest issue is that our versions depend on ubuntu versions 20:13:15 bencer: but if someone contributed changes to make it possible, would you sponsor it into debian? 20:13:28 sure 20:13:53 we are working a lot on getting more contributors 20:14:23 I'm glad to see the dependencies at least pushed to Debian which lays the ground work for someone to do the last mile bit 20:14:24 due the philosophy of zentyal, most of our community are sysadmins with not developers/integrators 20:14:47 micahg: yes, we always do that, we want to contribute as much as we can to debian/ubuntu 20:14:53 we have sent some patches to asterisk 20:15:13 filled bugs to launchpad on per daily basis (almost) :) 20:15:21 and some contributions to samba4 are on the way 20:16:11 bencer: I seem to recall that the zentyl packages have only had a single upload so far 20:16:28 which required a bit of back and forth for sponsorship 20:16:57 are you confident in yoru ability to maintain them from here? 20:18:14 ok, sorry guys, i had some problems with the charger, im back 20:18:43 tumbleweed: what happened is that in the past, was a volunteer/unofficial upload 20:19:07 what has changed since then? 20:19:07 now one of our project goals is to get the best integration with the ubuntu ecosystem we can get 20:19:25 so we have official resources=time, to invest in ubuntu 20:19:31 right 20:19:35 also this is not a new upload, but a rename of the packages 20:19:44 in the past the packages were ebox-* 20:19:49 now they are zentyal-* 20:19:54 yeah, I seem to recall that Breaks + Replaces was missing in the rename 20:20:11 yeah, that was fixed on time :) 20:20:15 bencer: yes, but you also only had one round of the ebox packages, and that was a year previous 20:20:32 I assume we can expect some more frequent uploads now? 20:20:42 yes, i've not too much to say about the previous packages 20:20:51 tumbleweed: yes, i can show you more than words 20:21:20 bencer: you are subscribed to ubuntu-devel-announce? 20:21:47 http://git.zentyal.org/zentyal.git/commit/ac1c7717efdd52cb763ec55e8c10b61301a8b053 20:21:57 this commit fixes one of the reported issues on launchpad 20:22:01 to the packages we uploaded 20:22:33 we are going to discuss if it should go to SRU or not 20:22:37 tumbleweed: sure 20:22:52 also security, -server, -edu and -doc 20:22:55 good 20:23:04 since we have a chapter in the ubuntu-server-guide 20:23:38 bencer: why are the packages all native packages? 20:24:06 bdrung: this has been a hot point 20:24:20 we consider zentyal as an ubuntu only software 20:24:42 is tied to ubuntu software like i said (upstart, apparmor, etc) 20:24:54 and is tied to specific versions included in ubuntu 20:25:09 our configuration templates are tested with the versions on ubuntu 20:25:13 other packages are tied to upstart and apport too, but aren't native 20:25:19 not with any squid or dansguardian versions for example 20:25:53 bdrung: imho we can find reasons to push in both directions, native and non-native 20:26:06 according to the policy, we define ourselves as native, and we are native 20:26:19 true that we could be non-native 20:26:27 but current status is as it is 20:26:42 maybe the day someone contributes debian support, we can evaluate going to non-native 20:26:57 but with more maintenance power it could become non-native with supporting other distros? 20:26:58 but at the moment, we only run on ubuntu, so we are native :) 20:27:23 could be, but the company is not interested in supporting other distros 20:27:36 so that would be community contributions 20:27:37 you wrote that you dislike when Debian and Ubuntu packaging are different without justification 20:27:46 do you have examples for it? 20:28:12 in the past asterisk, at the moment i dont know the status 20:28:20 i think they are the same now 20:28:30 no, we still have a diff 20:28:54 if eventuall we want zentyal in debian 20:29:06 having the packages we use, be as similar as possible, would help a lot 20:29:40 but again, i dont see debian support close, maitenance of it wouldnt be easy neither 20:29:47 as the release cycles of both doesnt fit 20:29:47 bencer: any ideas to reduce the amount of differences? do you work on getting the differences reduced? 20:30:18 bdrung: our first goal was to get the zentyal packages on a good shape in precise 20:30:45 now our goal is going to be to contribute patches to make all the services we depend on, use upstart 20:31:04 also some contributions are in the roadmap, like sssd support on auth-client-config 20:31:27 reducing the differences was a personal thing, more than something scheduled on the roadmap 20:32:47 bencer: are you aware of the various freezes in Ubuntu and how they might affect your ability to upload? 20:33:05 yes 20:33:10 micahg: we already had to deal with that 20:33:22 zentyal packages got uploaded with a feature freeze exception 20:34:20 bencer: ok, what about the milestone freezes, if for example, edubuntu would have an image with zentyal on it 20:34:56 yup, our internal planification is done with the wiki page of release timeline next to us 20:35:59 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/ReleaseSchedule 20:36:09 so, if zentyal were on and Edubuntu image, would you be able to upload a new version on June 6? 20:36:14 s/and/an/ 20:36:31 yup, actually we plan to upload something close to our zentyal 3.0rc 20:37:03 i already discussed this with jacalvo, in charge of the releases 20:37:19 but as this schedule was published a few days ago, still we dont have detailed plan 20:37:25 but we are totally aware of the dates 20:38:25 bencer: I'm not so sure :), June 6 is relevant for uploads on images, do you know why? 20:38:34 yeah we talked about it in the edubuntu session, so the actual upload after the freeze would just be a minor bug fix upload 20:39:24 micahg: probably to deal with images sizes?, but i dont know exactly why 20:40:06 having upload privileges will help to be faster uploading packages 20:40:28 bencer: for alphas, the archive is soft frozen, any uploads for sources that affect images needs to be coordinated with teh release team 20:40:42 also rebuilding all the images take time, so a change in on of the packages forces a complete rebuild 20:41:24 right 20:41:35 so, given that, would you still upload a new version on June 6? 20:42:10 only if a critical bug is found that forces us to do so 20:42:21 but will try our best to have everything before ready 20:42:45 bencer: what would you do if you found a bug that needed to be uploaded? 20:42:50 also i cound with the support of more experienced people like highvoltage or jamespage (or last sponsor) 20:42:54 count* 20:43:11 so we will be asking for advice to them when in doubt 20:43:52 well, as this will be because edubuntu, first of all i will discuss about the bug with edubuntu people 20:44:06 and if we dont have any other option that request a new upload 20:44:24 file a bug and explain the release team the situation 20:44:57 bencer: are you subscribed to ubuntu-devel-announce? 20:45:11 yup 20:45:34 all announces about release dates are sent there 20:45:35 bencer: do you envision more people wanting to apply for upload rights to these packages? 20:46:05 jacalvo in the future too, so i'm not the only one, in case i'm super busy with something else 20:46:47 also i plan to ask for motu once i'm more experienced with the ubuntu workflows, which are different to the debian ones i'm used to and i know well 20:46:49 ok, I'd like to create a packageset with those packages in it then 20:47:05 this way we will be able to work more on depends 20:47:26 but that will be after we start contributing patches to these packages, doesnt make sense to do it now 20:47:29 bencer: do you have a description we can use for that packageset to determine what belongs in it? (is zentyal-* sufficient?) 20:47:43 there is an other one 20:47:46 (we still have to vote on the packageset and your rights as well) 20:48:24 zbuildtools does not match zentyal-* 20:48:27 bencer: right, I see zbuildtools as well (I mean for future additions that won't require coming back to the DMB to be added) 20:48:34 zbuildtools 20:48:41 +zentyal-* 20:48:45 ok 20:49:00 so, we'll take 2 votes, one on the packageset and one for bencer to upload to it 20:49:41 #vote create a zentyal packageset with zbuildtools, zentyal-ca, zentyal-common, zentyal-core, zentyal-dhcp, zentyal-dns, zentyal-firewall, zentyal-network, zentyal-ntp, zentyal-objects, zentyal-openvpn, zentyal-printers, zentyal-samba, zentyal-services, zentyal-squid, zentyal-users as the initial packages and zentyal-* for the addition criteria 20:49:41 Please vote on: create a zentyal packageset with zbuildtools, zentyal-ca, zentyal-common, zentyal-core, zentyal-dhcp, zentyal-dns, zentyal-firewall, zentyal-network, zentyal-ntp, zentyal-objects, zentyal-openvpn, zentyal-printers, zentyal-samba, zentyal-services, zentyal-squid, zentyal-users as the initial packages and zentyal-* for the addition criteria 20:49:41 Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me) 20:49:51 +1 20:49:51 +1 received from barry 20:49:51 +1 20:49:51 +1 received from bdrung 20:49:56 +1 20:49:56 +1 received from micahg 20:49:59 +1 20:49:59 +1 received from stgraber 20:50:26 Laney: ? 20:50:45 +0 // sorry, I've dropped the ball on this one and not been paying attention 20:50:45 +0 // sorry, I've dropped the ball on this one and not been paying attention received from Laney 20:50:56 we have a +1 from tumbleweed also 20:51:02 #endvote 20:51:02 Voting ended on: create a zentyal packageset with zbuildtools, zentyal-ca, zentyal-common, zentyal-core, zentyal-dhcp, zentyal-dns, zentyal-firewall, zentyal-network, zentyal-ntp, zentyal-objects, zentyal-openvpn, zentyal-printers, zentyal-samba, zentyal-services, zentyal-squid, zentyal-users as the initial packages and zentyal-* for the addition criteria 20:51:02 Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1 20:51:02 Motion carried 20:51:28 #action micahg to create LP team related to the new packageset 20:51:28 * meetingology micahg to create LP team related to the new packageset 20:51:44 #action stgraber to create the packageset and make the new team the uploader of it 20:51:44 * meetingology stgraber to create the packageset and make the new team the uploader of it 20:52:09 #action micahg to document the packageset 20:52:09 * meetingology micahg to document the packageset 20:52:31 #vote Jorge Salamero Sanz for upload rights to the zentyal packageset 20:52:31 Please vote on: Jorge Salamero Sanz for upload rights to the zentyal packageset 20:52:31 Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me) 20:52:37 +1 20:52:37 +1 received from bdrung 20:53:10 +1 20:53:10 +1 received from barry 20:53:28 +1 20:53:28 +1 received from stgraber 20:54:03 +0 20:54:03 +0 received from Laney 20:55:04 we have a +1 from tumbleweed also 21:00:42 +1 (I'm back) 21:00:42 +1 (I'm back) received from tumbleweed 21:01:29 +0 conditionally that bencer reviews the freeze process again with stgraber (I would have liked to have seen more go arounds for a +1, there were only 2 uploads of the set a year apart) 21:01:29 +0 conditionally that bencer reviews the freeze process again with stgraber (I would have liked to have seen more go arounds for a +1, there were only 2 uploads of the set a year apart) received from micahg 21:01:36 #endvote 21:01:36 Voting ended on: Jorge Salamero Sanz for upload rights to the zentyal packageset 21:01:36 Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:2 21:01:36 Motion carried 21:01:45 bencer: congratulations 21:01:50 yay! thanks!! 21:01:53 :) 21:02:17 #action stgraber to review the freeze process with bencer 21:02:17 * meetingology stgraber to review the freeze process with bencer 21:02:34 #action micahg to add bencer to zentyal packageset 21:02:34 * meetingology micahg to add bencer to zentyal packageset 21:03:08 #topic AOB 21:03:18 next chair? 21:03:37 looks like I am 21:03:51 also, membership monitoring still broken 21:03:54 #action tumbleweed to chair the next meeting 21:03:54 * meetingology tumbleweed to chair the next meeting 21:03:54 please action me to fix it 21:04:08 #action tumbleweed to fix membership monitoring script 21:04:08 * meetingology tumbleweed to fix membership monitoring script 21:04:17 anything else? 21:05:06 the early meeting time 21:05:07 ? 21:05:17 ah, right, do we have any results? 21:05:37 cody needs to reply 21:05:54 and BDRUNG! 21:06:05 however the only time left now is thursday 1pm 21:06:09 #action cody-somerville and bdrung to vote in early meeting poll 21:06:09 * meetingology cody-somerville and bdrung to vote in early meeting poll 21:06:41 anything else? 21:07:11 Laney: i did 21:07:48 maybe i failed in submitting it. i failed to understand this website 21:08:12 the website doesn't agree 21:08:23 ok, we can take this out of meeting, anything else? 21:09:14 going 21:09:15 i have no time Thursdays 21:09:32 (only after 14 utc) 21:09:49 wrong: only after 15 utc 21:11:18 ok, let's take the meeting time to the list, we can announce it later 21:12:46 #endmeeting