18:00:47 #startmeeting ircc meeting 18:00:47 Meeting started Sun Mar 25 18:00:47 2012 UTC. The chair is AlanBell. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. 18:00:47 18:00:47 Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired 18:01:09 agenda is over here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda 18:01:54 so who is here for the meeting o/ 18:02:13 o/ 18:02:23 รด// 18:02:28 \o 18:02:33 cogito, ergo sum. 18:02:40 heh 18:03:01 #topic Review last meetings action items 18:03:08 #progress Pici to send mail to the list about the guidelines document to encourage edits and fixes to the FIXMEs 18:03:15 o/ 18:03:48 I put together an email about the wrong thing. Sooo.. I didn't send that, but should have this email out either today or tomorrow. 18:03:55 ok, that would be great 18:04:03 good 18:04:10 I did a bit of tinkering with the guidelines etherpad 18:04:26 I think it is nearly ready to go 18:04:33 great 18:05:04 AlanBell: so you left few FIXMEs to fix? :) 18:05:27 I removed a few of them 18:05:46 I think there are a couple left 18:06:04 ok, good progress 18:06:23 lets have another go at finishing that off this week and get it published at the next meeting if possible 18:06:48 yes, would be nice to close this bug 18:06:48 another pici action now 18:06:51 #progress Pici to work on the list of expired members 18:06:57 get anywhere with that? 18:07:36 Not really. I'll take care of it though. 18:07:38 .30 18:08:01 ok 18:08:08 #progress oCean to edit the guide to add advice on support questions in -offtopic 18:08:26 hmm, which guide was that supposed to be? 18:09:09 that was relating to the supporters guide 18:09:17 Was it? 18:09:28 I think we asked this same question about this item last time too... 18:09:44 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/SupportersGuide 18:09:53 at the very bottom 18:09:56 so this item is done 18:10:04 great 18:10:34 ok, that concludes the actions from the last meeting 18:10:40 #topic Open items in the IRCC tracker 18:10:46 we have no open items \o/ 18:10:49 more than that, it's done well 18:10:56 woo! 18:11:00 Hurray 18:11:16 #topic Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council 18:11:23 no new bugs 18:11:29 #subtopic bug 788503 IRC Guidelines too #ubuntu centric - tsimpson 18:11:31 Launchpad bug 788503 in ubuntu-community "IRC Guidelines too #ubuntu centric" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/788503 18:11:46 this is in progress and we want to sort it out for the next meeting 18:11:53 indeed. 18:12:05 #subtopic bug 884671 Ubuntu IRC operator recruitment is slow and ungainly - jussi 18:12:07 Launchpad bug 884671 in ubuntu-community "Ubuntu IRC operator recruitment is slow and ungainly" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/884671 18:12:34 i'm not convinced that jussi has had the chance to really look into this 18:12:52 he recently gained a real life :) 18:12:55 it's odd that this has been raised since jussi was one of the main people who pushed the existing process 18:13:03 heh 18:13:15 yeah, but thats fine, I just put the person who raised the bug in the agenda 18:13:17 ikonia: that only means he cares of the process 18:13:24 ikonia: it's good to have him lead fixing it then. he agrees with the premise 18:13:39 what's actually looking at being changed though ? 18:13:49 we have had a few people apply for ops in #ubuntustudio, great to see that project reanimated 18:13:54 Nothing wrong with taking another look at the process as a whole. 18:14:07 more so as ubuntustudio is understaffed 18:14:26 ikonia: well for one, we are doing applications from existing ops as they happen, and we did process all the applications in all the queues from existing ops 18:14:28 ikonia: we want to be able to appoint ops without the process, when we know the people to be good 18:14:45 topyli: wasn't that how it was before the existing process was put in place ? 18:15:02 AlanBell: yeah, it was nice to see that 18:15:04 the other thing we are doing is batching recruitment a bit and doing the induction thing a bit differently 18:15:05 the current process makes it easier for us to evaluate people whom we don't know 18:15:48 AlanBell: the post-acceptence stuff is really good, I'm looking at the application and post acceptence as two seperate things 18:17:23 We should really reach out to our new ops as we get them and ask them if they think the process could have been done better. 18:17:54 So like asking me? ;-) 18:18:10 ikonia: i think the current thinking is that we should have both ways at our disposal. the current process for people we don't know, and the "just do it" approach to people that we do know 18:18:26 Pici: yeah, what did they find difficult or annoying, and what was useful 18:18:35 seems sensible 18:18:47 Aye. 18:18:53 well I think at the time of the precise launch we want to kick off another intake of ops across a wider selection of channels 18:18:59 the current new guys may not be the best measure as lots of it was being setup as they where being brought on board 18:19:22 The current process is that a op first gets approved, then after two months evaluated for continuation? 18:19:53 three months iirc, but yeah 18:20:05 three months, but yes, that is part of it, but this is more about how we find ops and when we process the applications etc 18:20:10 only two months? I've been an op for a year or so now and still being evaluated 18:20:11 anyhow, lets move along 18:20:27 #subtopic bug 892500 eir is still not fit for purpose in #ubuntu -ikonia 18:20:29 Launchpad bug 892500 in ubuntu-community "eir is still not fit for purpose in #ubuntu" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/892500 18:20:30 pangolin: everybody's being evaluated anyway :) 18:20:35 topyli, :) 18:20:51 Alright, clear 18:20:52 would like to see a bit more on the eir like functionality from other bots 18:21:08 there has been a bit of a trial of ubottu-fr 18:21:17 how has that been going? 18:21:24 how much did moving the eir nagging out of -ops-team help? 18:21:37 the ubottu-fr stuff seems good 18:21:58 topyli, there is less nagging in -ops-team, that is the only difference I have seen 18:22:07 It means -ops-team is usable, not sure how it's affected the banlist in #u though ;) 18:22:08 I for one am very glad that -ops-team can actually be used instead of it being nearly flooded by eir. 18:22:35 eir as a tool does not effect the ban list 18:22:36 it adds value auto-removing the floodbots 18:22:40 Also, I don't think that ubotu-fr is in #ubuntu anymore, or at least its not doing any reporting in -monitor. 18:22:43 they where the main cause of the ban list filling up 18:22:52 Pici: it's been pm'ing 18:22:57 Ah. 18:23:08 Pici: it's been pm'ing, and it's also muted in #ubuntu, by me 18:23:25 as a Ubuntu copy it was responding to factoid requests 18:23:26 I haven't been able to do alot of opping in #ubuntu lately (work = busy) 18:23:35 the overall functionality of it has been good though 18:23:37 been a little confusing as I keep forgetting which bot we are meant to be using 18:23:54 in my view pushing forward with ubottu-fr is worth while as out of the box it beat eir for usability 18:24:00 so what does ubottu-fr do exactly? 18:24:18 pretty much the base functionality of eir 18:24:18 it does everything eir does + ubottu 18:24:42 you get banned it asks you to set a comment on it, updates BT with a relevent comment in the right ban id etc etc 18:24:55 if it can auto remove floodbot bans I think it will be pretty much perfect 18:25:16 the main thing for me is the auto removal of floodbot bans, keep the ban list ok, then functionality that feeds into BT, 18:25:35 it seems a solid base to move forward from 18:25:39 fresh comments on the bug would be useful, so we can get some tangible indication of progress 18:26:03 I'll put some feedback in on it, 18:26:06 so it updates the ubottu bantracker? 18:26:10 AlanBell: correct 18:26:15 yay 18:26:17 ikonia: thanks 18:26:28 yeah, feedback on the bug would be perfect 18:26:35 AlanBell: so when you query a ban, it reads from the same ban id 18:26:37 all in sync etc. 18:26:42 it's not %100 spot on, but it's a solid base for me 18:26:56 the sooner we can use that and dump eir, then move on with ubottu as a base, the better it will be in my view 18:27:05 these bugs are filed against eir, but probably still exist when using ubottu-fr 18:27:06 if people could put their thoughts there, or on the mailing list or elsewhere that would be great, then we can talk about the next steps at the next meeting 18:27:08 at the moment we are using a ton of bots so it's hard to get real usage 18:27:11 err these bugs: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-bots?field.searchtext=[eir 18:27:53 oCean: some of them are resolved in ubottu-fr 18:27:53 agreed having only 1 tool is better 18:28:05 absolutely 18:28:07 I think we've been in ubottu/ubottu-fr/eir limbo for a while 18:28:21 be nice to start pushing ubottu/ubottu-fr merge and start using it and fix bugs going forward 18:28:25 yup 18:28:52 can't we just run our own instance of ubotu-fr? 18:28:55 how doed ubotu-fr handle floodbot bans? 18:29:11 Pici: from what I've seen - nothing yet but nico was saying it can do it 18:29:19 Pici: I don't think it's doing it as it would cause a fight with eir 18:29:35 Pici: (not certain on that) 18:29:37 that's why I'm saying dump eir, get ubottu merged and running, then fix going forward 18:30:18 pangolin: sure, but we had to try it out for a bit first 18:30:20 are we going to have to do manual removals in batches like we did previously? 18:30:35 Pici: I'd check the functionality with nico 18:30:48 AlanBell, I don't know that anyone has actually used it for actual ban handling 18:31:07 it is there but has anyone set comments with u-fr? 18:31:12 i'll check with him and look at the code myself 18:31:14 #action people to provide feedback on the ubottu-fr trial on bug 892500 18:31:14 * meetingology people to provide feedback on the ubottu-fr trial on bug 892500 18:31:16 Launchpad bug 892500 in ubuntu-community "eir is still not fit for purpose in #ubuntu" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/892500 18:31:38 heh 18:32:18 #subtopic bug 913541 there are a number of people with Ubuntu IRC cloaks who have expired from the ubuntumembers group - AlanBell 18:32:20 Launchpad bug 913541 in ubuntu-community "there are a number of people with Ubuntu IRC cloaks who have expired from the ubuntumembers group" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/913541 18:32:37 oh, we talked about this one already 18:32:43 #subtopic bug 916247 devel wiki on ubottu.com needs some attention - AlanBell 18:32:45 Launchpad bug 916247 in ubuntu-community "devel wiki on ubottu.com needs some attention" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/916247 18:33:07 it did get fixed, we were just keeping this bug around for a bit in case anyone felt like migrating the content to wiki.ubuntu.com 18:33:27 I tried a bit, but it does require quite a lot of manual reformatting to moin syntax 18:34:00 #topic Set all operators to renew at same time via LP so people can plan to deal with the renewals nicely 18:34:29 I did some tinkering with lplib to find out when people do expire, I will did that out in a sec 18:34:42 anyone think this is a startlingly good idea? 18:35:11 I think it'll fill up my inbox fast ;) 18:35:21 who clicks on the renew link for this? 18:35:29 It would mean I could more easily mass-archive all of the renewal emails I get 18:35:43 less regularly too 18:35:51 But seriously, it would be nice to deal with everthing at once 18:36:03 well, more regularly but less often 18:37:11 there will be cases where people have just renewed and will have to do it again 18:38:04 Unless we set everyone's renewals a year from now 18:38:34 well we could set them all to two years from now 18:38:53 or set them to all expire one week into the term of the next IRCC if we were feeling evil 18:39:07 tsk tsk 18:39:07 haha 18:39:12 hehe 18:39:45 I know one IT manager who set all the certificates in the business to expire one week after his 65th birthday 18:40:10 hahaha 18:40:17 nice farewell :) 18:40:57 anyhow, back to the topic, is harmonising renewal dates a good idea? 18:41:11 I see benifit, I see pain 18:41:19 I'm not especially concerned either way 18:41:29 me either 18:41:38 personally I can't see a net reduction in pain 18:41:39 it is a good idea. the problem is how we do it in practice. give it a year for everybody sounds good 18:42:03 i think we'll have issues qhen setting it for new ops 18:42:05 in practice someone sits down with lplib and a python script for an hour or two then presses a button 18:43:54 meh, i'm failing to have a clear opinion 18:44:51 perhaps staggering the potential loss of ops would be better.... 18:45:01 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ankl5FhsdSiZdEtaNkRRM0xIdWtrTnBKalhZUkdxLXc 18:46:52 I dont really see an overwhelming need to change it right now. 18:46:58 that is it, now sorted by expiry date 18:48:16 yeah, right now I don't really see the problem that it solves 18:48:39 maybe we should shelf this. nobody seems to be able to come up with a problem we would solve... yeah 18:48:43 I guess we could give everyone a longer countdown, right now people have one week to press the button 18:48:55 and if they don't then they miss it, and we can sort it out 18:48:55 "here remember to set an alarm on your calendar" 18:49:19 given that I just made a spreadsheet with all the dates on we could do that bit anyway 18:50:04 already spent more time on this than the bots issue 18:50:13 heh 18:50:18 ok, I think we should close this agenda item for the moment, it isn't remotely urgent and it is of questionable value 18:50:23 I'm sure this is important but how important? 18:50:27 o/ 18:50:30 Sounds good 18:50:34 #topic Any Other Business 18:50:47 does anyone have anything else they would like to raise? 18:51:10 * Pici thinks 18:51:11 salaries don't count 18:51:14 we should do some membership applications at some point, not done any of those yet 18:51:21 * AlanBell doubles topyli's salary 18:51:31 still 0 :( 18:51:45 * pangolin thinks 18:51:57 do we have any apps ine the queue? 18:52:02 nope 18:52:11 we're still not advertising irc membership enough 18:52:11 do we have a schedule for harmonizing the channel access lists? 18:52:49 Comparing with LP, or? 18:52:56 Myrtti: good question, I was going to try and do that in April sometime, I was pondering a semi-automatic way of doing so 18:52:58 s/harmonizing/cleaning up/ 18:53:16 Pici: and other means of communication 18:53:35 question, is it worth revisiting (next meeting) the possability of merging some of the offtopic channels ? 18:53:45 or is it a dead waste ? 18:54:21 yeah, we could talk about that 18:54:27 I think it would be a good discussion 18:54:32 ikonia, I think it is a non-issue really. people want to relax in k-ot or whatever I don't see a reason to force them all into one channel. 18:54:36 theoretically, i'd like a single offtopic channel. but i'm not sure what the other 'flavors' would think 18:54:37 if so I'll do an agenda item and put some points to/against it 18:54:44 ok 18:54:50 ikonia: good, thanks 18:54:51 if people think it's worth while 18:54:51 a diacuasion fir another meeting..... 18:55:23 ok, all done? 18:55:24 topyli, me as well 18:55:26 yep 18:55:35 I'll raise it then 18:55:44 #endmeeting