00:05:04 #startmeeting 00:05:04 Meeting started Fri Aug 12 00:05:04 2011 UTC. The chair is duanedesign. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot. 00:05:04 Useful Commands: #topic #action #link #idea #voters #vote #chair #action #agreed #help #info #endmeeting. 00:05:46 o/ 00:06:12 hello 00:06:47 raise hand ih here o/ 00:06:52 okay 00:06:55 o/ 00:07:00 o/ 00:07:03 at least in spirit 00:07:05 o/ 00:07:18 Aloha 00:07:31 Sorry I'm late 00:07:31 ok i will start charles proposal 00:08:03 i hope some you had time to read it 00:08:24 read what (I just joined) 00:08:36 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/cprofitt/sandbox 00:09:01 #link will add it to the log pretty like I think 00:09:03 I had my personal live intervene 00:09:23 thanks led 00:09:33 duanedesign: who is here from the bt council ? 00:09:39 late, but here 00:09:55 [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/cprofitt/sandbox 00:10:02 I think that link is mute ^^ 00:10:17 it just doesn't repeat them here anymore 00:10:21 Sorry I'm late 00:10:50 DarkwingDuck, we are just starting =] 00:11:01 Outstanding 00:11:09 I think the BT is all but dead, if people want to support new users, let them support new users on the forums or irc or LP or what have you 00:11:39 i dont know about that 00:11:56 If the BT wants to morph itself into an ambassador role, new to Ubuntu, and helping people integrate into the community, we need buy in from other teams 00:11:56 i think te team has a lot to offer. 00:12:02 Which we clearly do not have 00:12:12 so I suggest we discuss the BT with the CC 00:12:45 We have a lot to offer, but why do we need the BT to make the offering ? 00:12:50 bodhi_zazen: whilst me and UBT had issues, that news is devarsting to me 00:12:54 bodhi_zazen: I have contagted the MOTE Mentoring Program and the bugs Mentoring Program and they were interested in woring with us 00:13:23 Well, that is what needs to be discussed, not the link from cprofit 00:13:25 IMO 00:13:35 What UBT needs is a core of people with TONs of time to drive it. 00:13:48 i think thr issue is we, the BT, put to many obstacles in the way for someone who just wants to learn Documentation 00:13:51 I don't have the time at the moment to be a driving force. 00:13:54 I think the link was one of the subjects of the meeting 00:13:56 DarkwingDuck, I thought that's part of what council was? People that were committed and had the time. 00:13:56 We need to map out how we are going to integrate the BT into the community 00:14:13 charlie-tca, +1 00:14:16 charlie-tca: it is , but it is sort of irrelevant, IMO 00:14:31 I think we are missing the point 00:14:37 DarkwingDuck: we gave the coucil those ruights? 00:14:40 Unfortunately, there seems to be at least one person here who refuses such a meeting to even take place 00:14:41 * bkerensa can help with UBT 00:14:48 if we want to be a team or just pointers to upstream 00:14:51 Yes, but the Council can't even get on the same page. 00:14:57 as I see it 00:15:08 and I'm saying that as a Jr member on the council. 00:15:34 Hi 00:15:39 Hi JasonO 00:15:42 Hi 00:15:55 Hi jledbetter 00:16:06 Hi bkerensa 00:16:07 That's the issue... we have no "roadmap" 00:16:19 the mentoring programs that exist in different areas of the community are struggking, as i understand, The beginners Team has much knowkedge in this area we can bring ti the table 00:16:26 This is Ubuntu Beginners Team Meeting correct? 00:16:33 bkerensa, Yes :) 00:16:41 * bkerensa is in the right place then 00:17:15 duanedesign, yes but I see that the original BT way was the best 00:17:24 I see the BT as feeding the other projects. a place people can go and ask (and get help with) "I want to help. Where/How can I?" 00:17:33 where you have a guide (human) to interact 00:17:36 Its not just the core team to spend time. We ned contribution from each memeber, atleast for an hour each day 00:17:43 We need to work with Doc Team, Bug Squad, MOTE wcwtera to best determin how to get people interested in their team. At the sametime encourage their mentoring program to join ours,So we can share best practices and resources 00:17:50 The future of the BT is what needs to be discussed, there is no consensus on the council or within the team , there is no mission 00:18:10 bodhi_zazen, true 00:18:21 jledbetter: i agree, er nned to push people to these other teams 00:18:29 Oh no... she's going to be one of *those* people.... 00:18:33 duanedesign: indeed, as of my "leaving" UBT, is also seems that things like MOTU, have failed... miserably 00:18:36 "The Ubuntu Beginners Team exists to enhance the initial experience of new Ubuntu users and to guide existing Ubuntu users to become part of the global Ubuntu community. " https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/ 00:18:39 but if we are just pointer to other places, none stays and knowledge get lost 00:18:57 I'm still here. 00:19:11 jledbetter: that definition is depreciated 00:19:12 and I went from BT to Doc team and Kubuntu Council 00:19:14 PabloRubianes, I would think folks would be happy to be helped and emaybe stick around to help others. 00:19:22 And can be better served in other ways 00:19:22 bodhi_zazen, Oh? Documentation? 00:19:32 PabloRubianes: good point. I would work to integrate the other teams mentoring processes into the beginnersteam 00:19:36 You do not need a BT to help on LP, forums, irc .... 00:19:44 PabloRubianes; I think you have it wrong, at least in my eyes 00:19:48 bodhi_zazen, Nope. Anyone can. :) 00:19:52 jledbetter: Documentation of what ? 00:20:02 bodhi_zazen, Why it's deprecated. 00:20:04 MrChrisDruif, what do you think? 00:20:08 It would be *awesome* is "we" would become the mentoring area 00:20:13 jledbetter: did you not read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/cprofitt/sandbox 00:20:24 bodhi_zazen, That's what we're discussing. It's not in place :) 00:20:25 * phillw to be suspended for a sense of humour.... What rules where there for that? 00:20:26 It has not been fully adopted 00:20:38 That way we wouldn't loose any knowledge 00:20:50 bodhi_zazen: i agree we need no team buti can not imagine I would have ever been so active had I not belong to a team than containeed so many knowledgable people in different areas of the community 00:20:54 MrChrisDruif, I mean in the new model proposed 00:21:18 I think BT should have a person who handles each aspect of contribution: bugs, doc, locos, dev, marketing etc and should act as a beginner mentor in each area 00:21:22 What we need to do is have a discussion with the CC and other community leaders 00:21:31 and build a role for the BT 00:21:38 i agree bodhi_zazen 00:21:40 support will be a part of what we do 00:21:40 bodhi_zazen: +1 00:21:44 I think becoming a mentorship area is the ideal, but first we have to have a strong team behind with sense of pretence 00:21:52 bodhi_zazen: preliminary talks have happened with Joeb454 00:21:53 and half the team can not grasp that concept 00:21:54 PabloRubianes, +1 00:21:59 err, jono 00:22:07 like jledbetter , and others 00:22:12 Wow. 00:22:15 which results in chaos 00:22:18 sense of you belong there 00:22:37 bodhi_zazen, and I think there should be a -team where we had all fun and more than that 00:23:07 IAmNotThatGuy: I agree, but that is not the future of theBT 00:23:08 bodhi_zazen, What can't I grasp, exactly? 00:23:08 IAmNotThatGuy, +1 00:23:10 What does the UBT think they are? 00:23:21 the council has been debating this for ever now... 00:23:32 What does the rest of the UBT see the UBT being? 00:23:41 bodhi_zazen: i think i agree that input from thecommunity is essentkial. What do they want, what will help most. From who i talked to a Mentor program woould help most. AS lot of teams have troublemaintaining them. hving a team that is all they do increases chances for succes IMHO 00:23:43 I do not know jledbetter , you are citing the old mission statement and wondering what happened 00:23:59 duanedesign: well, that is haelpful 00:24:01 apparently, if the team consists of bodhi_zazen, it is what ever he decides 00:24:08 bodhi_zazen, Because that's what is on our wiki page and what brings people to us and why we get emails of people wanting to join. Right? 00:24:11 can you lay that out on a wiki page ? 00:24:28 duanedesign, Yes, mentoring is what I keep hearing too. 00:24:43 DarkwingDuck; I would see it as it is; which would be support for beginning ubunteros and help in the transition from ubuntero to active ubuntero 00:24:45 I think we need to try not to be a mess in here 00:24:56 * phillw can I state how totally wrong the lp emails are? 00:25:00 The current mission is: The Ubuntu Beginners Team exists to enhance the initial experience of new Ubuntu users and to guide existing Ubuntu users to become part of the global Ubuntu community. 00:25:08 DarkwingDuck: ^ 00:25:15 PabloRubianes: the Bt is in shambles, from top to bottom, from bottom to top 00:25:17 if yoiu wish to be professionall, then gewt them sorted 00:25:27 bodhi_zazen, I love UBT for the helpp and the team channel rather than FGs. And thats why I am not ready to leave the -team channel. It gives me some sort of energy to proceed forward. Kinda a force to run 00:25:32 bodhi_zazen, yes 00:25:34 Yes, I know the mission statement.. I'm looking at what the members within the team view the team as. 00:25:40 Even within this meeting there is no agreement as to what the BT is any longer 00:25:51 With that in mind; that would mean that we should be mentoring people to becoming members in their prospected area 00:25:56 Same for the mailing list 00:25:58 That's my point bodhi_zazen 00:26:06 same for the council 00:26:21 Those areas would have people coming back to us to let the knowledge remain 00:26:24 MrChrisDruif, I think there is where you get it wrong, 00:26:53 new members should be first members of the team and then go upstream 00:26:56 i would like to thing if you go through the Beginners team and lear Documentation, you will come back and repay that favor mentoring someone else 00:27:15 The greater community is asking the BT to morph from what is is/was into something else and most of the council see the team going in that direction 00:27:23 duanedesign, What I was thinking too 00:27:26 if we only help to evolve people to other teams in a few time none will remain in the bt 00:27:33 If not all of the council 00:27:46 The BT membership seems split 50/50 00:28:05 one idea was to have an open team of eople looking for help 00:28:08 PabloRubianes: that may be the future of the BT 00:28:16 and another team of mentors 00:28:18 if there is no mission / purpose 00:28:31 bodhi_zazen, but I don't think that is right... 00:28:57 What is not right ? The UDS request ? the team forking ? 00:29:28 bodhi_zazen, you know that this is our home. People who are loving it hard are still there. And how can we break it? We can do help in all FG, but lets also have #UB and -team 00:29:32 bodhi_zazen, let out team future on other decision 00:30:09 bodhi_zazen: My Lord and Master, I really feel to see a sense of humour. It has really troubled me as I so, so strongly belive in UBT.... where did they & I go wrong? 00:30:14 The team needs to decide what it wants to be 00:30:25 lord and master? 00:30:30 * DarkwingDuck sighs 00:30:50 * MrChrisDruif joins DarkwingDuck in sighs 00:30:57 Are we going to answer the request from the community ? 00:31:01 Or be a support team ? 00:31:22 bodhi_zazen, why cant we do both? 00:31:22 bodhi_zazen, You would prefer support? As in "how to do I make X work in Ubuntu"? 00:31:32 Anyhow, I think duanedesign and I pretty much are on the same page, but just rephrasing it differently 00:31:46 Lets not break what we are till now and lets work on the request from the community 00:31:49 IAmNotThatGuy: because half the team does not want to do both, half the team wants to be support only 00:32:08 Then they can be support. Those that don't can mentor ;) 00:32:36 jledbetter; +1 00:32:41 DarkwingDuck: and MrChrisDruif you do not see our nick names, fior some this is a 'problem' but for those who know, this a statememnt of authourity 00:34:11 phillw: What are you smoking and where can I get some? :P 00:34:22 lol 00:34:30 =D 00:34:30 So put that for a vote, both, then change the various wiki pages, and mov eforward 00:34:35 bodhi_zazen, Or lets m,ake it like to be an UBT member, they should provide help in any one FG(If thats the case) but not breaking the -team :[ 00:35:03 We should seriously do away with "membership" 00:35:08 We should either : 00:35:10 bodhi_zazen: +1 00:35:19 1. Be an open team - probably best, anyone can join 00:35:28 I'm going to be brutally honest for a moment... 00:35:37 2. Write out specific expectations for membership 00:35:39 DarkwingDuck: Sure 00:35:41 and if you all want to fire me as a council member after, that's fine. 00:35:58 UBT is too full of egos and "look at what I can do" people 00:36:05 +1 DarkwingDuck 00:36:10 DarkwingDuck: I have a guy who states "Hello Master" - I have been hi master, he inseests upon it because of it being barred 00:36:22 We seriously need to bleed off the disruptive members 00:36:34 It's turned into a group where people point at themselves and yell at what they do/have done. 00:36:42 +1 00:36:43 Ubuntu is not for people like that... 00:36:47 +1 00:36:49 bodhi_zazen: and replenish with valuable ones? 00:36:57 If you want to brag about how great you are... go to Fedora or Arch 00:37:02 lol 00:37:03 replenish what 00:37:06 council seem to be closed qligue 00:37:14 I thought folks were in UBT to help others. 00:37:17 bodhi_zazen: members 00:37:38 jledbetter: in theory. In reality it's the inflated ego club of the month 00:37:51 I say we do not need "membership" 00:37:51 I was astounded to realise tat council only vote on new mwmbwrs 00:37:54 should be an open team 00:38:13 DarkwingDuck, great I think you are showing your ego 00:38:17 bodhi_zazen, I agree with you: open 00:38:23 How is that? 00:38:36 PabloRubianes: ^^ 00:38:55 At one time we sort of needed a membership process, but that was long ago and we have outgrown that need 00:39:06 the first thing we should do is not to say... if you want that go to arch or fedora... 00:39:16 The idea of membership is dragging the team down and interfering with integration into the community 00:39:21 bodhi_zazen: started UBT.... those who fail to listen to his advice, are fools. 00:39:49 bodhi_zazen, the community don't even know we exist until they need a team to get people in 00:39:49 bodhi_zazen, Agreed. Can we vote on that? 00:39:50 phillw: Can you please kindly stop trolling? 00:40:15 * jledbetter would love to see a positive outcome from our first meeting in a while :) 00:40:17 What the BT needs is 00:40:31 1. to define a mission statement 00:40:54 2. We could use a few leaders please. Leaders have tended to go MIA 00:41:01 i agree with ann open Beginners Team, But a closed Council Team 00:41:15 3. We need some people who are willing to put some serious time into productive projects 00:41:26 Council conversations and decitions need to be open. 00:41:49 s/council/bt channel ops 00:41:51 i agree, i think the monthly Council meetings will quickly bleed off the inactives 00:42:23 That is all we really need, channel ops to rid the channel of the occasional troll 00:42:33 I do not want to see this team implode. We worked to hard to get hear an a lot of the community is starting to take notice of us 00:42:40 We still need leaders 00:42:53 We do have an opening, I think. 00:42:57 so let us ne civilized in handling this dierty laundry 00:42:57 bodhi_zazen, Running? 00:42:58 Who is going to work with other community teams ? 00:43:37 Who is going to provide support ? Where ? IRC ? Forums " LP ? 00:43:45 Not me for a while, personal life issues 00:44:22 I'm hunting for a job, trying to stay in my apt and at this point in the release cycle my Ubuntu time is tied up in Kubuntu... 00:45:33 Don't all step forward at once =) 00:45:45 bodhi_zazen: the support will be prvided not by BT 00:45:52 You see, all this team does any more is debate, no workers 00:46:03 bodhi_zazen, I am always in. But Promise me that a -tem channel exists 00:46:13 -team* 00:46:14 bodhi_zazen: the spport will be provided by the teams we mentor users for 00:46:26 duanedesign: I thought we agreed to split the team into two roles - support AND working with other teams 00:46:29 * MrChrisDruif is off, bicker among yourselves. I think the document Charles put up is the direction we should try to go for. 00:46:37 we should first start by defining the BT mission 00:47:01 duanedesign: I agree with your definition "the spport will be provided by the teams we mentor users for" 00:47:16 bodhi_zazen: at its most simp[le. Help users get involved in the community 00:47:22 I agree, drop support form BT, support goes to IRC, forms, LP, etc 00:47:50 I would agree with that definition, and I think the entire council would as well 00:48:02 I agree with that mission, duanedesign, for what it's worth. 00:48:02 The rest of the team, however, is not willing to do that 00:48:10 +1 the statement 00:48:10 Which would mean forking the team 00:48:19 bodhi_zazen, Am I in the "rest of the team" statement still? 00:48:23 Why not? 00:48:31 One team for community involvement and one for support 00:49:22 bodhi_zazen: does that mean dropping MOTU training? As they understood it was going to be UBT? 00:49:40 phillw: depends on who you ask 00:49:59 I thought MOTU had a mentoring project? 00:50:04 bodhi_zazen: indeed, so a meeting like this is good :) 00:50:23 jledbetter: not really, they were heading to UBT 00:50:27 Personally I would drop the support role from the BT and change to getting people involved in the community 00:50:50 I think the entire council wants that 00:51:33 a lot of active users like to give supprt. So i think we politely nudge then to #ubuntu 00:51:39 move support to the appropriate, already existing community infrastructure - forums, LP, IRC, wiki 00:52:18 The BT is for"Help users get involved in the community" 00:52:34 bodhi_zazen: you know through ~lubuntu, I do want at least one of our devs to become MOTU, He is capabble, but the the teams do not sema to be able to decide who says 'yes' 00:52:38 so this may mean directing them to forums, IRC, LP wiki 00:52:43 This is what I am looking for. 1) I don't like duplicated efforts. 2) I believe in helping new contributers make the transition into a team that works on a 6 month cycle with hardcore deadlines. 3) I believe in helping new people to Ubuntu. 00:52:44 or MOTU or what have you 00:53:21 4) I dislike people who try to use teams to inflate egos. 00:53:40 The actual "work" gets done by the wiki team, or on #ubuntu, or on the fourms 00:53:42 One moment! 00:53:47 DarkwingDuck: +1 00:54:03 I think we vote for a council... so this is just input 00:54:12 So again, back to square one, mission statement please =) 00:54:47 Probably need to stage the transition to be honest 00:55:01 Change mission statement to support and Help users get involved in the community 00:55:13 nudge members to #ubuntu or LP or MOTU 00:55:28 In 6-12 months re-define the mission statement to only "Help users get involved in the community" 00:55:47 what's wrong to give support? waste of time? or something? 00:55:56 you are not oblide to do it 00:56:16 Nothing is wrong with it 00:56:33 In the past support was the core of the mission statement, and we are changing 00:56:37 PabloRubianes: some we win, some we lose - that should not stop us trying 00:57:04 so support will be provided not by the BT, but by existing teams / venues == less duplication of effort, etc 00:57:10 Okay sorry gang.. Kids are yelling and I need to support the wife. 00:57:58 DarkwingDuck, See you later. Thank you for coming:) 00:59:20 bodhi_zazen: I'd give a +1 for that :) 01:00:40 My proposal would be - Change the mission statement to include BOTH support AND Help users get involved in the community 01:01:10 Expect those who want to do #2 , Help users get involved in the community, build the bridges over the next 6 months 01:01:16 then re-evaluate 01:01:45 bodhi_zazen: how many coucil members are here? 01:01:52 Depending on what progress is made we can morph to Help users get involved in the community or support ONLY, or continue on the dual path 01:02:05 seem like that would make the most people happy 01:02:36 poke Calling all FC council members 01:02:38 * bodhi_zazen is here 01:03:13 The team also has to find a more effective method of communication, not everyone can make IRC meetings 01:04:16 as do rioters, if you would propose your motion. 01:05:21 phillw: you willing to post that on the BT mailing list ? 01:05:30 Ask people to vote on the mailing list ? 01:05:40 Or set up some other voting method ? 01:05:51 We could take a straw poll here now 01:06:36 Please vote , Dual mission (+1) ? 01:07:09 bodhi_zazen: with the greatest of pleasure, but there is a PM for you :) 01:07:53 duanedesign, You can do #vote and I think it'll tally up votes for you 01:08:09 we are voting now? 01:08:31 bodhi_zazen put a vote to the floor 01:09:08 jledbetter: I do not think I can do that 01:09:27 Why not, bodhi_zazen? 01:09:34 My point is, I do not think there are enough people here now to vote, we should up it up on the mailing list 01:09:48 Alright. Sounds good. I second that motion. 01:11:37 duanedesign, Still with us? 01:11:45 I'm back 01:12:27 welcome back DarkwingDuck 01:18:27 Are we done here? 01:18:34 Mmm 01:18:38 Done are we? 01:18:56 Dunno, I came back and nothing. 01:19:14 bodhi_zazen, I think, was making a motion to vote on the mission on the mailing list. 01:19:25 +1 01:19:36 We seem to have lost duanedesign to the RL monster so can't #vote or #endmeeting :) 01:19:47 DarkwingDuck, Since you're our other leader here. Feel free to stick a fork in it :) 01:20:09 Anything else anyone else wants to bring up? 01:22:10 What about the people who want to be mentored? Just received an email from a new person. 01:22:23 Or was that previously mentioned? 01:23:44 :/ 01:24:00 JasonO, Mentoring will happen (According to the FGs) 01:24:21 Okey. FGs? 01:24:28 but I am still not sure whether #ubuntu-beginners-team will exist or not 01:24:41 Focus Group 01:25:10 Oh. 01:25:29 Why wouldn't it exist? 01:33:01 Well, I need to get back to work :) See y'all later! 01:33:16 #endmeeting 01:33:24 duanedesign: ping 10:47:20 + 14:57:00 hey 14:59:18 o/ 14:59:25 * wendar = pseudoskaet waves 14:59:33 * joshuahoover waves 14:59:33 * charlie-tca waves 15:00:32 hi all, let's get started 15:00:36 wendar: Error: Can't start another meeting, one is in progress. 15:00:36 #topic Oneiric Release Meeting overview - wendar 15:00:36 . 15:00:37 Agenda is at: 15:00:37 [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2011-08-12 15:00:39 . 15:01:14 duanedesign: could you end your meeting? :) 15:01:55 pseudoskaet... sounds clinical 15:02:35 hi 15:03:07 slangasek: I don't see duanedesign, can we force an old meeting to end? 15:03:12 did this meeting move to an hour earlier? usually I can't make it but this is nice :) 15:03:32 AlanBell: is there any way to end an old meeting now? 15:03:41 wendar: only if we have someone ( AlanBell ?) who can kick it on the server 15:04:55 last time this occured, someone just /nick'd to the person who should have closed their meeting and #endmeeting'd 15:05:19 ah, but duanedesign is still on the channel :/ 15:05:34 poop 15:05:41 I think we've no choice but to move ahead without the bot to back us? 15:05:46 #endmeeting 15:05:58 thanks, AlanBell 15:06:07 it didn't do it 15:06:29 I will try and do it another way