17:02 <pmatulis> #startmeeting Ubuntu Doc team
17:02 <meetingology> Meeting started Wed Sep  3 17:02:26 2014 UTC.  The chair is pmatulis. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
17:02 <meetingology> 
17:02 <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
17:02 <pmatulis> who is here for the Ubuntu Doc team meeting?
17:02 <DS-McGuire> We all are right?
17:03 <ant__> me
17:03 <GunnarHj> I'm here this time. ;)
17:03 <pmatulis> ok, here is the agenda:
17:03 <pmatulis> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
17:03 <pmatulis> #topic Pending Action Points .:.
17:03 <pmatulis> DONE: antdillon get stats on useage of the wiki (what pages are being created/edited as well as visits)
17:03 <pmatulis> Help Wiki stats from 01 May 2014 to 07 August 2014
17:04 <pmatulis> Edits: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/8024763/
17:04 <pmatulis> Reads: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/8024752/
17:04 <pmatulis> Review quick rebuild:
17:04 <pmatulis> http://ubuntu.qa/~ant/help.html
17:04 <pmatulis> 
17:04 <pmatulis> so this was an action point from last meeting
17:04 <pmatulis> ant__: thanks for getting that done.  i'll give a chance for people to look at that and comment if they want
17:05 <ant__> pmatulis: np
17:05 <ant__> hope it helps
17:05 <DS-McGuire> ant has already shown me this and I think it is fantastic.
17:06 <pmatulis> it looks like there is still quite a bit of activity on the wiki
17:06 <pmatulis> i will proceed with other action points
17:06 <pmatulis> DONE: pmatulis follow up on the ubuntu-doc thread with the conclusion (to Canonical proposal from last meeting)
17:06 <pmatulis> DONE: DS-McGuire File a bug about linking the Help Wiki on the ubuntu.com/community site
17:06 <DS-McGuire> pmatulis: The amount of activity in the wiki was surprising and amazing
17:07 <ant__> yeah, more then I expected
17:07 <pmatulis> DS-McGuire: can you provide the bug # re the above ↑ ?
17:08 <DS-McGuire> hold on
17:08 <DS-McGuire> #ubuntu-meeting-2
17:08 <DS-McGuire> sorry : https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community-website/+bug/1359200
17:09 <DS-McGuire> I didn't know where to proceed with this bug report as I don't know where you guys wanted it to go.
17:09 <GunnarHj> Is this a proper time to talk about the proposed docs index page?
17:10 <pmatulis> GunnarHj: no
17:10 <GunnarHj> There is no other item about it, right?
17:11 <pmatulis> GunnarHj: since it's not on the agenda we'll put it at the end AOB (any other business)
17:11 <GunnarHj> Ok.
17:11 <DS-McGuire> pmatulis: Did you get the link?
17:11 <pmatulis> DS-McGuire: well in this instance you could have emailed the team via the mailing list
17:11 <pmatulis> DS-McGuire: can you do that after the meeting?
17:11 <ant__> I believe there is a continued item for me and DS-McGuire to look into the information architecture of the site
17:12 <DS-McGuire> I didn't even think about that. My apologies. I can.
17:12 <pmatulis> ant__: that's correct
17:12 <pmatulis> ant__: you want to merge the bug stuff with that item?
17:13 <ant__> pmatulis: I think they are separate items
17:13 <pmatulis> ant__: alright
17:13 <pmatulis> #action DS-McGuire to follow up on bug #1359200
17:13 * meetingology DS-McGuire to follow up on bug #1359200
17:14 <DS-McGuire> pmatulis: That will be sorted.
17:14 <pmatulis> great, ty
17:14 <pmatulis> continuing with other action points
17:14 <pmatulis> IN PROGRESS: antdillon, DS-McGuire Look at the organization of the wiki and so on
17:14 <pmatulis> how is that coming along?
17:15 <ant__> pmatulis: I started by creating a simple index page, to should my vision and charged the link in the agenda
17:16 <antdillon> sorry just switching machine
17:16 <pmatulis> yeah i couldn't parse your last comment
17:17 <DS-McGuire> I didn't offer a lot of help but I did review the latest quick build and offered m,y thought to ant
17:17 <DS-McGuire> my thoughts*
17:18 <DS-McGuire> What I mean by I didn't offer is that I couldn't provide much.
17:18 <pmatulis> the basic idea is to do what with the wiki again?
17:19 <antdillon> pmatulis, sorry here is the link I created a page to show how I thought this could work: http://ubuntu.qa/~ant/help.html
17:20 <antdillon> pmatulis, should I have emailed this to the mailing lists?
17:20 <GunnarHj> Aren't you talking about different things now?
17:21 <pmatulis> i'm confused.  the action point shows "wiki" but this looks like a front page of help.ubuntu.com
17:22 <antdillon> ah ok sorry thought we were talking about the site as a whole
17:22 <pmatulis> last month the idea was that the wiki competes with the official docs and that you guys were going to look it over and possibly make it different somehow so that's not the case.  is that right?
17:23 <antdillon> ok well the page I created would be the "official" docs side
17:24 <antdillon> I believe me and DS-McGuire still need to talk about the wiki layout
17:24 <pmatulis> ok
17:24 <pmatulis> antdillon: but i like your mock site nonetheless
17:25 <DS-McGuire> antdillon: Yeah, we need to get the done, using a similar sort of style you have created would be beneficial for the wiki.
17:25 <antdillon> pmatulis, thought it would a be a good starting point and give people a chance to review and comment
17:26 <pmatulis> antdillon: i see the bottom of your site does mention the wiki in a way that makes it clear that it's an extra to the official docs so that's good IMO
17:27 <antdillon> pmatulis, Im worried about pushing the wiki to so in the site
17:27 <pmatulis> antdillon: hmm?
17:27 <antdillon> but seemed to make place on this second level page
17:28 <antdillon> this page would be ... help.u.com/desktop
17:28 <DS-McGuire> I agree that going Docs>Wiki is a good idea.
17:28 <antdillon> DS-McGuire, great
17:29 <antdillon> One of the main points of the page is to show the url structure
17:29 <antdillon> The top level navigation would be a list of projects (allowing for future docs)
17:29 <pmatulis> antdillon: i like that
17:29 <DS-McGuire> me too
17:30 <antdillon> The navigation inside each project would be bespoke to the project
17:30 <antdillon> In desktops case it seemed to make sense to separate it by version
17:30 <antdillon> I imagine this trend would continue through cloud and server too
17:31 <pmatulis> but what would the help.ubuntu.com landing page look like?
17:31 <antdillon> but as phone does not follow the same release system it can be different
17:31 <DS-McGuire> Would the wiki have the same trend with the navigation?
17:32 <antdillon> the homepage would contain information about the site (why/what/who/how) about the site with easy navigation items to the top level items
17:33 <GunnarHj> DS-McGuire: It would not be possible to split the wiki based on versions.
17:34 <antdillon> DS-McGuire, not sure, what you think? I think it make sense to match them by the nature of a wiki might be detrimental to be very strict
17:34 <pmatulis> imo, we should not put much energy into the wiki other that providing the appropriate onramp/links
17:34 <DS-McGuire> Not by versions, by these: Installation, Hardware, Software, Further topics. Like they are in the wiki already.
17:35 <GunnarHj> DS-McGuire: Aha, yes that's good.
17:35 <antdillon> pmatulis, I agree, that would relieve the pain point of redirecting current urls
17:35 <pmatulis> the whole point (to me) is the more official and structured we make the wiki the more people see it as actual documentation
17:37 <pmatulis> and the less the bother to help with actual documentation
17:37 <antdillon> is the current state of the wiki difficult to navigate?
17:38 <GunnarHj> antdillon: I suspect that the main way to end up at a wiki page is via google.
17:38 <GunnarHj> antdillon: There is no easy way to browse it to find what you are looking for.
17:38 <DS-McGuire> Can I offer up something else about the navigation of the quick build? I don't see there being any point in having the navigation across the top the exact same as the links below, it should be made like nautilus, as when you go back using the navigation, and not forward... If that makes any sense.
17:39 <antdillon> GunnarHj, true, it looks like the wiki landing page could do with a little design love but the information is easier to find
17:41 <antdillon> DS-McGuire, the text inside the page allows us to inform the user of the next sections
17:42 <GunnarHj> Since we are now talking about the help.ubuntu.com frontpage anyway, let me add another thought:
17:42 <DS-McGuire> antdillon: But surely we are duplicating the information then.
17:42 <antdillon> DS-McGuire, what would you replace the page content with? not 100% sure what you mean
17:43 <GunnarHj> A few months ago we said that, considering that most of the docs are community written, we should encourage new contributors. The conclusion was a "Contribute" link at the top of every page.
17:43 <antdillon> DS-McGuire, yes we are duping the links on that page but the top links are for quick navigation
17:43 <GunnarHj> I would like to see something similar now when everything is redesigned.
17:44 <antdillon> GunnarHj, nice point, would the Contribute link go on the top of all doc pages or just wiki ones?
17:45 <GunnarHj> antdillon: Right now it's on top of every page, both "official" and wiki pages.
17:45 <DS-McGuire> antdillon: This is hard to explain really. I just don't see the need to have the navigation show what you can click on when it is below, I think it should be used to show where you have came from, just like the file manger on ubuntu does when you go into a folder. If nobody see my point then I will let it go.
17:45 <GunnarHj> antdillon: (i.e. we already made that change)
17:45 <antdillon> Ok, I like that (sorry I wasn't around a few months ago). Is everyone happy for me to take that point and include it in the update for next meeting?
17:46 <pmatulis> antdillon: summarize it?  i'm a bit lost right now
17:46 <antdillon> DS-McGuire, Oh it will, it can act as a breadcrumb and section navigation
17:47 <DS-McGuire> antdillon: That is where I was going with it, I think it would be better so you can see where you came form and go back. Does everybody else like the idea?
17:47 <pmatulis> antdillon: why not another action point about architecture of help.ubuntu.com?
17:47 <antdillon> pmatulis, I will add a "Contribute" link to the top of this mock up
17:47 <GunnarHj> antdillon: Great, thanks.
17:48 <pmatulis> ok, i'll assing the action point and then move on.  inform us via m/l or at the next meeting (add it to agenda if so)
17:48 <antdillon> DS-McGuire, like this, http://www.ubuntu.com/cloud/tools/juju
17:48 <antdillon> pmatulis, yes its all about the architecture of the site
17:48 <DS-McGuire> antdillon: Yes! That is what I had in my head.
17:49 <pmatulis> #action antdillon, DS-McGuire to propose new architecture/navigation to help.ubuntu.com
17:49 * meetingology antdillon, DS-McGuire to propose new architecture/navigation to help.ubuntu.com
17:49 <antdillon> DS-McGuire, so click back through the breacrumb will reveal the navigation
17:49 <pmatulis> thanks so much guys
17:49 <pmatulis> i would like to move on if it's ok with everyone
17:49 <antdillon> ok
17:50 <pmatulis> just the rest of the action points
17:50 <DS-McGuire> Yes, and the fact the cloud use the navigation is awesome
17:50 <DS-McGuire> Yes, lets move
17:50 * pmatulis evilnickveitch Follow up with pmatulis about common license
17:50 * pmatulis belkinsa Get a small team to resign ideas for ubuntu.com/community
17:50 * pmatulis godbyk to poll members of the Ubuntu Manual team over disbanding the Ubuntu Manual project and joining the Ubuntu Docs team
17:50 * pmatulis pmatulis to upload new Canonical cloud docs
17:50 <pmatulis> 
17:50 <pmatulis> so these are still in a holding pattern it seems
17:50 <pmatulis> #topic New Business .:. Team Business: Planning for Ubuntu Global Jam
17:51 <pmatulis> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Jams/Docs
17:51 <pmatulis> 
17:51 <pmatulis> does anyone know something about this?
17:52 <DS-McGuire> I know a little but that's because I joined the online Q&A about setting up your own Jam.
17:52 <pmatulis> i think belkinsa added that item and she's not here
17:52 <pmatulis> so let's move on then
17:52 <pmatulis> #topic New Business .:. Miscellaneous: (Doug Smythies): For help.ubuntu.com is there anyone capable and willing to review the .htaccess file and either update it or delete it? For example, it does not work at all on my test server, and I have to delete it, otherwise nothing works.
17:53 <pmatulis> #link http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/help.ubuntu.com/view/head:/.htaccess
17:53 <pmatulis> doug added this question and i tried to answer
17:53 <pmatulis> 
17:53 <pmatulis> (pmatulis):
17:53 <pmatulis> * ForceLanguagePriority requires the LanguagePriority parameter (not included in .htaccess so we need the main server config).
17:53 <pmatulis> #link http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/mod/mod_negotiation.html#forcelanguagepriority
17:53 <pmatulis> #link http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/mod/mod_negotiation.html#languagepriority
17:53 <pmatulis> * Last line suggests that at one time there was a 'C' in the Server Guide URLs. Because these links must be very old I suggest we remove this line and see if it causes any problems.
17:53 <pmatulis> * First line is standard
17:53 <pmatulis> * The AddLanguage lines map the browser's language to what files should be served. I need to test this but they should remain. Doug might have tested only with an English browser.
17:53 <pmatulis> #link http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/mod/mod_mime.html#addlanguage
17:54 <pmatulis> 
17:54 <pmatulis> antdillon: maybe you know more
17:54 <GunnarHj> pmatulis: Isn't it just that Doug needs to modify the Apache configuration on his server?
17:55 <antdillon> pmatulis, huh sorry not sure what is wrong here
17:55 <antdillon> pmatulis, so the language's do not work on the test server?
17:55 <pmatulis> doug is asking whether this file has a purpose
17:56 <antdillon> pmatulis, oh I see, no idea
17:56 <pmatulis> doug emailed me some more notes so i'll follow up with him separately
17:56 <GunnarHj> pmatulis: True, but I don't think he would have bothered if it had worked when testing on his server.
17:57 <pmatulis> GunnarHj: yup, he obviously has a problem with it
17:57 <pmatulis> GunnarHj: i don't use apache at home and i also didn't try to view anything other than english
17:58 <antdillon> here are the comments on the commits: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/help.ubuntu.com/annotate/head:/.htaccess
17:59 <antdillon> one is " Add dpm's MultiViews ubuntu-help with a .htaccess" ... I can ask dpm about this
17:59 <pmatulis> antdillon: who is dpm?
18:00 <GunnarHj> pmatulis: dpm -> David Planella
18:00 <pmatulis> ah
18:00 <antdillon> David Planella Community Team Lead
18:01 <antdillon> he was also in charge of translations at one point so might be a good start
18:01 <pmatulis> #action antdillon to investigate .htaccess file under help.ubuntu.com
18:01 * meetingology antdillon to investigate .htaccess file under help.ubuntu.com
18:01 <pmatulis> thank you
18:01 <pmatulis> are we done with all agenda items?
18:01 <antdillon> pmatulis, the aim point here is to find out if the file is required?
18:02 <pmatulis> antdillon: what it does, yeah
18:02 <antdillon> pmatulis, understand, will get the info
18:03 <pmatulis> antdillon: like i said, one of those parameters requires another parameter which is non-existent in the file so it must be found on the main server config
18:03 <pmatulis> that's my understanding anyway
18:03 <antdillon> pmatulis, I get it
18:03 <pmatulis> #topic AOB
18:03 <pmatulis> any non-agenda items (any other business)?
18:04 <DS-McGuire> Can I bring something up about the meetings?
18:04 <pmatulis> DS-McGuire: surely
18:04 <DS-McGuire> Okay, well I feel as if we would be able to communicate better and get points across better if we used Google Hangouts.
18:05 <pmatulis> DS-McGuire: it's hard to log
18:05 <DS-McGuire> pmatulis: I suppose :/
18:05 <pmatulis> DS-McGuire: but we could occasionally have hangouts, i'm not against it.  maybe for special projects
18:05 <pmatulis> and report back in the regular meeting
18:06 <DS-McGuire> pmatulis: I like that idea.
18:06 <antdillon> pmatulis, DS-McGuire we could combine irc and hangouts?
18:07 <pmatulis> antdillon: hmm, it could lead to logging headache
18:07 <antdillon> pmatulis, log official decisions and actions in irc and chat in hangout
18:07 <antdillon> pmatulis, im all up for easiest solution
18:07 <pmatulis> then there is the problem of the public viewing the action
18:08 <DS-McGuire> Are the public not allowed to view it?
18:08 <DS-McGuire> Google hangouts are very easy for the public to view what we do.
18:08 <pmatulis> well, they would need to be recorded
18:08 <DS-McGuire> That can be done too.
18:09 <pmatulis> it sounds like a lot of overhead IMO, it also goes against the norm of ubuntu team meetings
18:09 <GunnarHj> I think that when discussing design stuff, it's important with example pages (prepared in advance) to make the points, whether talking on IRC or hangout.
18:09 <elfy> not so easy for anyone no in the hangout to join in - assuming that public meeting = interested parties can join in
18:09 <elfy> s/no/not
18:10 <DS-McGuire> pmatulis: I suppose. Best to leave it then.
18:10 <pmatulis> but +1 for special sub-projects within the team
18:10 <pmatulis> people would also require google accounts and some people may resist being part of the borg and so on
18:11 <pmatulis> GunnarHj: you had something to add?  index?
18:11 <DS-McGuire> I don't think that is true anymore, Google changed that recently anybody can be a part of a hangout, however I see what you mean by the people not wanting to join in.
18:11 <GunnarHj> pmatulis: Aha, I already chimed in with it. (The "contribute" link.)
18:12 <pmatulis> DS-McGuire: i expect to see you front line and centre at our next UDS discussion ;)
18:12 <pmatulis> GunnarHj: ah ok
18:12 <antdillon> there is also a limit of 15 participants on a hangout
18:12 <pmatulis> well i guess that's it folks, anything else?
18:12 <DS-McGuire> pmatulis: I will try haha, I will mark it in my calander.
18:13 <DS-McGuire> Nope, that is all from me.
18:13 <GunnarHj> Nothing here.
18:13 <pmatulis> i have subscribed to the Fridge google calendar.  i see all ubuntu team events.  it's quite useful
18:13 <DS-McGuire> Got a link for that?
18:14 <pmatulis> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars/fridge/
18:14 <DS-McGuire> Thanks a lot :)
18:14 <pmatulis> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Fridge/Calendar
18:14 <antdillon> pmatulis, thanks, handy
18:15 <pmatulis> that's better, adding to one's google calendar
18:15 <pmatulis> see everyone next time: Oct 1
18:15 <antdillon> bye all
18:15 <pmatulis> #endmeeting