18:11 <hannie> #startmeeting 18:11 <meetingology> Meeting started Sat Jun 8 18:11:44 2013 UTC. The chair is hannie. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. 18:11 <meetingology> 18:11 <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired 18:11 <hannie> Do you want me to be chair for the moment? 18:12 <JimConnett> Yes 18:12 <hannie> ok, lets see who is attending, please give a sign 18:12 <phillw> o/ 18:12 <cqfd93> hi! 18:12 <jmarsden> o/ 18:12 <CarstenG> hi 18:12 <Yorvyk> o/ 18:12 <JimConnett> Greetings from the Pacific Northwest! 18:13 <hannie> Here is the link once more: http://pastebin.com/Cw5KU51h 18:13 <CrustyBarnacle> howdy 18:13 <ibere_SP> o/ 18:13 <hannie> Before we start, are there any newcomers? Could you introduce yourself? 18:14 <phillw> hi, I'm phillw lubuntu QA / Testing Team Lead. 18:14 <jmarsden> I'm noew to ubuntu-manual. A minor developer of Lubuntu. Some past LaTex experience. Interested in the proposed Lubuntu Manual work. 18:14 <ibere_SP> hi there! i'm ibere and i'm starting to help on lubuntu support team as a contributor. i'm active mainly on facebook lubuntu channel. 18:15 <hannie> ah, phillw welcome to the club! 18:15 <CrustyBarnacle> Howdy y'all :-) 18:15 <hannie> welcome ibere_SP another lubuntu enthousiast :) 18:15 <Yorvyk> Hi, I'm the idiot that proposed the Lubuntu version of the manual 18:15 <JimConnett> KEVIN! 18:15 <CrustyBarnacle> (secretly using Lubuntu on his lappy....) 18:16 <c7p> sry for that 18:16 <JimConnett> ...maybe... 18:16 <hannie> Yorvyk, we will talk about that later, ok? 18:16 <Yorvyk> Yep 18:16 * JimConnett is installing Lubuntu on a VERY old laptop even as we speak. 18:16 <hannie> Ok, lets start with the first item on the agenda 18:17 <hannie> #topic Evaluating Raring 18:17 <hannie> I want to start with the authors phase. c7p could you tell something about that, please? 18:18 <c7p> sure 18:19 <c7p> author phase proceed with with some problems related to lack of authors 18:19 <hannie> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApS28NMLnYJXdEdGQjRtUWtaOUZxREVzUldSOU5kc2c#gid=0 18:19 <c7p> i think that was very vivid during editor phase where editors had to fill some gaps 18:20 <hannie> yes, sometimes the line between autoring and editing becomes very thin 18:20 <c7p> after this we gained 2 new authors if my memory preserves me right, something that's very important 18:20 <hannie> c7p, I am sure you did everything to get as many authors aboard as you could 18:20 <godbyk> Hey, guys. Sorry I'm late. I lost track of time. 18:21 <hannie> hey godbyk we just started the meeting. 18:21 <c7p> one thing that was missing was communication between authors, but i think i'm to blame for that 18:21 <cqfd93> hi kevin! 18:21 <CarstenG> Hi Kevin! 18:21 * godbyk will read the backlog and get caught up. 18:22 <hannie> godbyk, here is the link to the agenda items: http://pastebin.com/Cw5KU51h 18:22 <hannie> c7p, communication via the mailing list or private emails? 18:23 <JimConnett> If I could append to c7p's report... 18:23 <c7p> both and live sessions too 18:23 <hannie> So here is a point of improvement that Jim will handle 18:23 <hannie> to all, jim is our new authors coordinator 18:23 <c7p> yea maybe 18:23 <JimConnett> The google docs spreadsheet just posted by hannie has a complete accounting of our current authors for 13.10 18:24 <CrustyBarnacle> I felt disconnected from the other Authors/Editors... but, my own communication/reaching out could improve too. 18:24 <JimConnett> Every author from 13.04 has been emailed, and every author replied (except for one, I think). 18:24 <hannie> CrustyBarnacle, that is an important piece of information 18:24 <JimConnett> We lost two in the process, so the spreadsheet clearly shows where we are ok, and where we are weak. 18:24 <hannie> JimConnett, will you see to it that communication gets better? 18:25 <jmarsden> Maybe authors could have a monthly IRC meeting, or similar, so they feel more like a community? 18:25 <JimConnett> My goal is to connect the authors to the editors. I think this is an important piece to the puzzle we are missing. 18:25 <hannie> jmarsden, good idea. Will you coordinate that? 18:25 <c7p> i think live sessions would be ideal 18:25 <c7p> +1 jim 18:25 <JimConnett> We also have to recruit. I've already contacted OMG! Ubuntu! for some type of interaction as they have helped us before. No reply yet. 18:26 <hannie> jmarsden, sorry, I meant JimConnett 18:26 <jmarsden> hannie: Well, I expect to me more of an editor than author for Lubuntu related work... but if no one else volunteers, sure. 18:26 <jmarsden> hannie: Ah, good :) 18:26 <JimConnett> I can certainly explore an IRC meeting every month up to the due date 18:27 <JimConnett> But right now, we only have a handful of authors, and I think our efforts should be equally focused between connecting existing authors and acquiring new authors. 18:27 <CrustyBarnacle> any thoughts on using Google+/hangouts for live sessions? 18:27 <godbyk> JimConnett: For recruiting in the past, we've posted a list of 'job' openings on our website and then written a little press release about it that we send out to OMG! and others. 18:28 <godbyk> JimConnett: We can also post it on our Facebook page. We've gotten decent use out of that when we're looking for proofreaders, etc. 18:28 <hannie> #action JimConnett will see to it that authors meet on irc once a month 18:28 * meetingology JimConnett will see to it that authors meet on irc once a month 18:28 <CrustyBarnacle> #idea any thoughts on using Google+/hangouts for live sessions? 18:28 <c7p> i think that we should contact translation teams to for new members 18:29 <c7p> many of us are contributing ubuntu manual, because we learnt the project through translations 18:29 <JimConnett> Aren't the translation teams part of the mailing list already? 18:29 <c7p> what i mean is that translation teams are more close to project than the rest of community 18:30 <hannie> CrustyBarnacle, we could use hangouts too 18:30 <JimConnett> If they are, surely, they would have seen the need and stepped up as appropriate! 18:30 <hannie> c7p, we will talk about translations later 18:30 <godbyk> JimConnett: Sometimes a person just likes to be asked. ;-) 18:31 <c7p> not talking about translations but for new member recruits 18:31 <c7p> but it's next on agenda so leave it for later 18:32 <hannie> right. recruiting. don't we do that already using the mailing list? Everyone who needs help can find us on irc or the mailing list 18:32 <JimConnett> Alright...so, for this part of our agenda....we have a proper accounting of authors for 13.10 18:33 <JimConnett> The proposed schedule looks good as well. 18:33 <hannie> ok, I suggest we go to the editors phase evaluation: 18:33 <hannie> For Raring every chapter/section had an editor. Like we said before, the work for editors was sometimes more difficult 18:33 * JimConnett wonders if THIS time the developer teams will hold to their feature freeze commitment. 18:34 <hannie> I would like to see more cooperation between the author(s) and editor(s) of a chapter/section 18:35 <hannie> How chould we improve that? 18:35 <hannie> *could 18:36 <JimConnett> Again, I think this comes down to communication. Everytime an author commits, we should immediately connect them with the editor. 18:36 <CrustyBarnacle> Have Editor/s per section, instead of throughout the manual? That is, limit to a section? 18:36 <godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: Currently editors are assigned to specific chapters/sections just as the authors are. 18:36 <hannie> CrustyBarnacle, some editors edit more than one chapter/section. That is necessary because we do not have enough editors 18:37 <CrustyBarnacle> OK... 18:37 <c7p> i think that meetings could help and also we could add a week between author and editing phase, where editor and author would have to cooperate 18:37 <hannie> JimConnett, agreed. Better communication between author/editor 18:37 <hannie> Evaluation final phase: was that phase ok? 18:37 <c7p> it may sound silly, but it maybe a way to formalize that editor and author have to be in contact with each other 18:37 <jmarsden> JimConnett: can bzr send email to the relevant editor when a commit is made to a given chapter? Some sort of bzr hook script? 18:37 <JimConnett> I think editors and authors should be cooperating from the beginning 18:38 <CrustyBarnacle> +1 bzr email 18:38 <godbyk> jmarsden: Possibly. I'm not too familiar with bzr hooks, but I'll look into it. 18:38 <hannie> ok, I suggest one of us will put this on the mailing list 18:38 * godbyk has used svn hooks before, but not bzr or git hooks yet. 18:39 <c7p> that sounds good 18:39 <JimConnett> Are there any downsides to "reassigning" editors? 18:39 <CrustyBarnacle> Early meeting of editor/author sounds like a good idea to help get started 18:39 <hannie> godbyk, I get messages from LP as soon as a commit is done 18:39 <CarstenG> JimConnett: To get notified about commits, I think every author and editor should be subscribed in the code branch to get an email from LP 18:39 <hannie> #action hannie will send an email to the list about better cooperation author/editor 18:39 * meetingology hannie will send an email to the list about better cooperation author/editor 18:40 <CarstenG> jmarsden: Yes, you have to subscribe you here: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/saucy 18:40 <hannie> Are there still any questions about evaluation of raring? 18:40 <godbyk> hannie: So do I. But I get message as soon as anyone pushes to the branch. Can we make it so editors see commits only from their authors? 18:41 <CarstenG> Maybe we can set the manual team here to get emails about commits 18:41 <c7p> i 've spoken for authors, authors that are here can express themselves too 18:41 <CarstenG> At the moment the team gets no emails... 18:41 <godbyk> CarstenG: That might get pretty noisy on the mailing list. 18:41 <c7p> about how they evaluate the previous sereis 18:42 <jmarsden> godbyk: I suspect you can if someone writes an appropriate hook script, but I am no expert on that. 18:42 <CarstenG> Well, you can use filters to sort out such email in a special folder. 18:43 <JimConnett> While I think the authors need to be writing NOW...authoring is a double edged sword 18:43 <CarstenG> I guess every email program can do this. 18:43 <hannie> For the moment I would say: if everyone gets a message when something is pushed he/she can see if it concerns his/her chapter and take action if necessary 18:43 <JimConnett> If you author NOW, then features can (and will) change all the way to feature freeze, requiring re-authoring. 18:43 <jmarsden> If you are going to mae everyone see all commits, I'd suggest doing it as a separate mailing list ubuntu-mainual-commits or similar 18:43 <JimConnett> If you author a few days before the deadline, we're scrambling, and it puts editors in a difficult position. 18:44 <CrustyBarnacle> +1 separate mailing list for commits (I just subscribed to saucy branch on launchpad) 18:44 <godbyk> JimConnett: Yeah, I think that's the crux of it. 18:44 <hannie> I do not mind receiving a private message when things are pushed to LP 18:44 <CarstenG> jmarsden: Well as I told, the usage of filters is very helpful here. 18:45 <CrustyBarnacle> I say we start authoring, and editors are responsible for last-minute changes in feature/ui (making sure they are documented correctly). 18:45 <hannie> Conclusion: we will have to find out if we can personalize the LP messages 18:45 <CarstenG> Hannie: You ar not yet subscribed to the saucy branch... 18:45 <Thomas> Hello everyone! I'm sorry I am late. 18:45 <hannie> CarstenG, oh, I will look into it later 18:45 <jmarsden> CarstenG: Agreed but it's traditional to have a separate list for that stuff, and it avoids putting off newcomers to the mailing list who don't understand why they are seeing all these "wierd" messages :) 18:45 <c7p> +1 18:46 <hannie> If there are no more questions on this subject I want to move to the next item 18:46 <Guest70970> Hello. I hope I didn't miss everything... 18:46 <hannie> Guest70970, perhaps you can introduce yourself to us? 18:46 <CarstenG> ok, if we can manage it to push these mails to another list... 18:47 <hannie> #action CarstenG will look into this matter ;) 18:47 * meetingology CarstenG will look into this matter ;) 18:47 <Guest70970> Yes hannie. I am Thomas Corwin. 18:47 <hannie> ah, welcome thomas 18:47 <hannie> #topic 2: How to get more contributors 18:48 <hannie> I personally am not very good at this. Are there any suggestions? 18:48 <hannie> hi TonyP 18:48 <CarstenG> Hi TonyP 18:48 <TonyP> Sorry I'm late as usual 18:49 <cqfd93> Hi Thomas and TonyP 18:49 <hannie> Have we done enough in the past to get contributors, and what more can we do? 18:49 <godbyk> Good questions. 18:49 <jmarsden> It's interesting that the idea of an Lubuntu version has got you at least 3 or 4 people here today... have you thought of a KDE version, an Xubuntu version, etc? Would thatr get you more folks from those flavours? 18:49 <JimConnett> I'll be connecting with Kevin via email for the contact information, the whats, and the hows, with past avenues to put out a call for new authors/editors. 18:49 <godbyk> In the past, I think we've just posted on Facebook, tried to get a post on OMG!, and tried to get a post on Ubuntu Planet. 18:49 <godbyk> Then hope that people show up looking to help. 18:50 <CrustyBarnacle> LUGs... anyone attend regularly to announce locally? 18:50 <TonyP> I joined following a message on the Ubuntu-uk loco list 18:50 <jmarsden> I'm typing this from a LUG :) 18:50 <hannie> #action JimConnett and godbyk will look into the matter of getting more contributors 18:50 * meetingology JimConnett and godbyk will look into the matter of getting more contributors 18:50 <godbyk> jmarsden: We've thought about that before, but weren't sure we'd get enough people to work on those spin-off manuals. 18:50 <CarstenG> The translations teams would be also a good source of new contributors, or? 18:51 <Guest70970> Could I add something to the agenda if there is time, hannie? 18:51 <hannie> jmarsden, good suggestion to see if we can get people from other flavors willing to work for the manual 18:51 <hannie> Guest70970, sure, go ahead 18:51 <godbyk> CarstenG: Yeah, we have quite a few translators who have stuck around to help with the English manual (hannie, c7p, cqfd93, etc.). 18:52 <c7p> we 've to look on who will coordinate these spin-off manuals, not sure if we can make it 18:52 <JimConnett> Anyone worried about resource dilution? 18:53 <phillw> sorry huys, feeding time here, I'll read the scroll back later :( 18:53 <godbyk> JimConnett: I am. :) 18:53 <phillw> s/h/g/ 18:53 <godbyk> phillw: No problem. Thanks for coming! 18:53 <hannie> see you, phillw 18:53 <JimConnett> We're already inviting authors/editors to one project...now we have Lubuntu, which is great, but is there really THAT much crossover? 18:53 <JimConnett> Example...screenshots from Ubuntu are unusable. 18:53 <JimConnett> ...unusable in Lubuntu. 18:54 <ThomasC> Sory. I disconnected on accident... 18:54 <ThomasC> sorry) 18:54 <hannie> JimConnett, people from other flavors can help with the ubuntu manual as well: e.g. proofreading 18:55 <jmarsden> Hopefully once people gain the basic skillset they can use it for multiple flavors... only way to know is to try, I think. 18:55 <CrustyBarnacle> I'd be interested in how much of Troubleshooting can crossover the different flavors 18:55 <ThomasC> I will do Wine for the different flavours. 18:56 <JimConnett> And an editor for Ubuntu would need to have an installation of Lubuntu if the editor is going to properly fulfill their commitment. I have about 7 different VMs installed on my machine, so I can handle it, but others> 18:56 <hannie> We need to do some research first to see if there are a great many differences between the flavors 18:56 <JimConnett> There are. Just installed Lubuntu during this session. DVD/CD burning, Office applications (I could go on and on) are different. 18:57 <c7p> let's put the talk on a foundation 18:57 <ibere_SP> hannie, i myself can say i learned a lot of Lubuntu reading Ubuntu manual. 18:57 <hannie> ibere_SP, that is good to hear 18:58 <c7p> same people will handle both manuals ? 18:58 <c7p> or there would be "different" teams 18:58 <jmarsden> That's a later topic, I think :) 18:58 <ThomasC> After we are done with the important topics, i have a question.. 18:59 <hannie> So, about this topic: will JimConnett and godbyk see to this? 18:59 <hannie> The topic was: how do we get more contributors? 18:59 <JimConnett> I'm already taking on a lot. Recruitment is my number one goal. I'd prefer someone else look into this. 18:59 <hannie> If there are no more questions, I want to go to item 3 18:59 <JimConnett> ...someone else look into the feasibility of crossover between Ubuntu and Lubuntu for authors/editors. 19:00 <godbyk> hannie: I can explain what we've done in the past and help brainstorm ideas for the future, sure. 19:00 <godbyk> JimConnett: I think hannie was talking about getting more contributors there. 19:00 <hannie> Ok, I suggest we continue this via the mailing list (getting more contributors) 19:00 <godbyk> hannie: Sounds good. 19:00 <ThomasC> JimConnett: I can do that in the next couple days, if thats alright. 19:00 <hannie> Anyone who has an idea, please send it to the list 19:01 <godbyk> I'll start a mailing list thread on this topic after the meeting. 19:01 <hannie> #topic 3: Release schedule Saucy 19:01 <hannie> Have you all seen the schedule I proposed? 19:02 <TonyP> Is there a link to it? 19:02 <hannie> #action godbyk starts a mailing list thread on how we can get more contributors 19:02 * meetingology godbyk starts a mailing list thread on how we can get more contributors 19:02 <godbyk> TonyP: http://pastebin.com/Cw5KU51h 19:02 <TonyP> Thanks 19:02 <JimConnett> ....gives us authors ~ 3 months. That's good. Authors? Are ya'll good with that? See any issues> 19:03 <jmarsden> Can't editors edit during the authoring phase, as soon as an author commits something?? 19:03 <ThomasC> 3 months sound like a good amount of time. 19:03 <godbyk> JimConnett: That's true.. but usually most of their work has to happen toward the end of that time as they have to wait for the developers to finish uploading their latest work. 19:03 <jmarsden> The strict separating in time seems unnecessary 19:03 <hannie> JimConnett, if the stretch is too long there is a danger of postponing work to the last minute 19:03 <c7p> the amount of time isn't a real factor to tell, i agree with Kevin 19:04 <godbyk> jmarsden: They could as long as they avoid bzr conflicts and the like. (No one likes merging conflicts.) 19:04 <jmarsden> Sure. Iwas thinking it would help the author/ewditor collaboration if they work together... 19:04 <c7p> i think that there should be given one more week for authors (talking as past author coordinator), in previous series one more week was vital 19:05 <JimConnett> There is no exclusivity in the schedule. We have to have a drop-dead date to keep the project on target. 19:05 <hannie> I think authors and editors can start by rereading raring and see if it needs to be improved 19:05 <godbyk> jmarsden: Absolutely! If authors and editors are working together closely then there shouldn't be an problems with having both of them working at the same time. 19:05 <CrustyBarnacle> agreed 19:06 <godbyk> c7p: So would we reduce the editing phase to just 1 week? Or is there something else that would need to be adjusted in the schedule to compensate? 19:06 <c7p> i cant talk for editors, but i think we can amend the release date, no big deal 19:07 <CrustyBarnacle> can we just list it as Writing Finishes / Editing Begins (both in the same week)>? 19:07 <TonyP> I was thinking that 2 weeks editing was little enough 19:07 <hannie> c7p, so you agree with the schedule? 19:07 <JimConnett> As an editor, a one week is too short. 19:07 <TonyP> I had a lot of problems with both the lasy two relaeases 19:07 <godbyk> c7p: Do you mean release the manual a week after Ubuntu has been released? 19:08 <c7p> yep 19:08 <hannie> The editors phase is 2 weeks now 19:08 <godbyk> hannie: Perhaps you should talk about the changes you made to this schedule. How does it differ from the raring schedule? 19:08 <CrustyBarnacle> I'd like to keep those 2 weeks 19:08 <c7p> that would go so if editors think that they need more time 19:08 <hannie> The schedule does not differ too much from the raring schedule 19:09 <hannie> There is only a slight overlap between the editing phase and the indexing phase due to 19:09 * JimConnett thinks we've tried SO HARD to coordinate software and manual release...that it would be a step back to propose any other release plan. 19:09 <hannie> the ubuntu release schedule 19:09 * JimConnett has to leave in 21 minutes. 19:10 <hannie> So, does the schedule needs any adjustment? 19:10 <JimConnett> My vote is 'no'. 19:10 <CrustyBarnacle> no 19:10 <ThomasC> no 19:10 <cqfd93> no 19:10 <hannie> Ok, next: 19:11 <hannie> #topic 4 screenshots 19:11 <hannie> CarstenG, cqfd93 could you say anything about this? 19:12 <cqfd93> I have a great experience in screenshotting 19:12 <CarstenG> Well, I would do them again :-) 19:12 <cqfd93> me too 19:12 <hannie> Did you encounter any problems in the raring version? 19:12 <godbyk> Sounds like we have a screenshot team! ;-) 19:12 <jmarsden> How automated is that process, and can it be made to work in Lubuntu too? 19:13 <godbyk> jmarsden: At the moment, the process isn't automated at all. 19:13 <cqfd93> no problems 19:13 <hannie> Right, CarstenG and cqfd93 will look after the screenshots 19:13 <CarstenG> One bad thing was the Feature Freeze exeption with some icons... 19:13 <godbyk> jmarsden: You have to manually take each screenshot. 19:13 <jmarsden> ah. I thought I saw something about a python tool to automate things...? 19:13 <JimConnett> I REALLY like the fact that we have a dedicated team for screenshots. Keeps our shots uniform. 19:13 <godbyk> jmarsden: We had one once upon a time (Quickshot) but we haven't had any developers for it in eons, so it no longer works. 19:13 <CarstenG> jmarsden: You mean Quickshot? 19:14 <CarstenG> That does not work anymore... 19:14 <jmarsden> CarstenG: Probably :) 19:14 <godbyk> jmarsden: I still think it'd be great if Quickshot could be revived as I think it did simplify things quite a bit. But that's just my opinion. 19:14 <CarstenG> We would need a developer to update it to 13.10. 19:14 <jmarsden> Otherwise Lubuntu could double the workload for the screenshot team... are they willing to tolerate that? 19:14 <godbyk> JimConnett: I agree. 19:15 <JimConnett> So...Carsten and Sylvie, can we officially commit you both to the screenshots for 13.10? 19:15 <CrustyBarnacle> jmardsen: no commitment has been made to Lubuntu yet.. separate topic/project 19:15 <CarstenG> Well, the Lubuntu team should find a own screenshot team :-) 19:15 <ThomasC> I could TRY to make a new version of Quickshot... I can't promise anything. 19:15 <cqfd93> for ubuntu, yes 19:15 <hannie> As long as there are no devolopers to adjust quickshot we will not use it 19:15 <cqfd93> for Lubuntu, I don't know 19:15 <godbyk> CarstenG and cqfd93, are there any issues you encountered with screenshots? Anything we can do to make your lives easier there? 19:15 <jmarsden> hannie: How badly broken is it? I could take a quick look, but I'm not volunteering tens of hours for fixing it... 19:16 <hannie> ThomasC, it would be great if you want to give it a try 19:16 <ThomasC> hannie, alright. I will work on it when i can. 19:16 <hannie> jmarsden, it is outdated and needs a lot of rewriting 19:16 <cqfd93> godbyk, I don't remember of any serious problems 19:16 <CarstenG> Well, I had no big problems, only the grub screen I had to do in a VM... 19:16 <hannie> #action ThomasC will try to revive quickshot 19:16 * meetingology ThomasC will try to revive quickshot 19:17 <godbyk> cqfd93: Great! 19:17 <CarstenG> Great 19:17 <godbyk> CarstenG: Yeah, the GRUB screenshot is always a pain. 19:17 <hannie> No more question about screenshots? 19:17 <hannie> We have a new screenshot team: CarstenG and sylvie 19:17 <cqfd93> ;-) 19:17 * JimConnett has documented Carsten and Sylvie as our highly-capable, super-intelligent screenshot team for Ubuntu 13.10. 19:17 <CarstenG> one point ... 19:17 <hannie> #topic translations 19:18 * JimConnett ...in the google docs spreadsheet 19:18 <hannie> ah, CarstenG go ahead 19:18 <CarstenG> If authors want to have new screenshots, they should do a first draft for them self. 19:18 <cqfd93> +1 19:18 <CrustyBarnacle> +1 19:18 <CarstenG> Then we can make them right. 19:18 <godbyk> +1 19:18 <ThomasC> +1 19:18 <JimConnett> +1 19:19 <hannie> CarstenG, I suggest authors can get help using the mailing list if they get stuck 19:19 <CarstenG> Sure. 19:19 <ThomasC> hannie, quick question 19:19 <hannie> Next: translations 19:19 <hannie> ThomasC, go ahead 19:19 <godbyk> One of the ideas I had the other day was to document the responsibilities and processes for each type of contributor (author, editor, translator, etc.) so that these things (e.g., 'you must take a draft screenshot') are more clear. 19:20 <godbyk> I'll try to work on that soon and get it added to the style guide. 19:20 * JimConnett has to leave in 10 minutes. 19:20 <ThomasC> What features did Quickshot have, i am not familiar with it, but i am a novice developer. 19:20 <hannie> godbyk, very good idea! 19:20 <godbyk> ThomasC: I'll email you some links and info about Quickshot after the meeting. 19:20 <jmarsden> ThomasC: Suggest running it in a VM on the last version it works on, to see how it used to work? 19:21 <hannie> ThomasC, I suggest we continue about quickshot using the mailing list 19:21 <ThomasC> Thanks. I will after the meeting. 19:21 <CarstenG> ThomasC: Maybe you can install a 10.04 in a VM an test it there? then you get a feeling of it... 19:21 <CrustyBarnacle> Translations? 19:22 <hannie> #action godbyk will document responsibilities and processes for each type of contributor 19:22 * meetingology godbyk will document responsibilities and processes for each type of contributor 19:22 <hannie> Ok, now to item 5: Translations 19:22 <CrustyBarnacle> I have to go... will catch up and send ideas/comments to mailing list... bye All 19:23 <hannie> Are we happy about how translations work at the moment? 19:23 <hannie> CrustyBarnacle, thanks a lot for attending. see you soon 19:23 <CarstenG> See you Mario 19:23 <cqfd93> For the French translation, yes! :-) 19:23 <hannie> hasta luego 19:23 <cqfd93> bye! 19:23 <godbyk> (Aside from my tardiness in getting them published? ;-)) 19:24 * godbyk promises to work on the French and Slovenian translations this weekend! 19:24 <hannie> Dutch translations, only LTS 19:24 <cqfd93> great! 19:24 <CarstenG> Well, we have 3 languages on 100 % only some days after release of raring! Thats great. 19:24 <godbyk> CarstenG: Yeah, I think these translators are getting *too good* at their work! :-) 19:25 <hannie> No more questions on translations? 19:25 <godbyk> For 13.04, both the French and Slovenian translations are about ready to be published. 19:25 <CarstenG> So I have the idea to open the translation some time earlier. 19:25 <hannie> How about the Spanish translation? 19:25 <godbyk> CarstenG: ? 19:25 <CarstenG> So we can publish also translations in time with the release. 19:26 <godbyk> hannie: I haven't heard from the Spanish translation team yet. 19:26 <hannie> Next: 19:26 <godbyk> CarstenG: Ah. Well, to do that we have to either fix Launchpad or stop writing/editing early enough for the translators to start their work. 19:26 <hannie> #topic 6: bug handling 19:27 <CarstenG> Well, in the last period of editing we mostly do fix typos, so the translators can handle this, too... 19:27 <hannie> Do we have to assign bug fixing to members of our team? 19:28 <hannie> At this moment some of us look at bug reports occasionally (I think) 19:28 <godbyk> hannie: How does our bug handling look at the moment? 19:28 <cqfd93> I volunteer to help for bug fixing 19:28 <godbyk> Do we have a lot of bugs that need to be dealt with? 19:29 <hannie> I would like to see more structure in the way we fix bugs. 19:29 <godbyk> I know I haven't been very studious about dealing with them lately. 19:29 <CarstenG> Well, I think who is interested in bug fixing, should join the group https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual-bugs 19:29 <jmarsden> Can you get an automated summary of open bugs emailed to the mailing list, monthly or even weekly? To provide visibility to the team on what needs fixing? 19:29 <hannie> I am in favor of letting authors/editors take care a bugs that affect their chapter 19:29 <hannie> *car of 19:30 <hannie> * care of (oops) 19:30 <JimConnett> Alright...I need to leave. Thanks for all the ideas and everyone's participation today. Look to the mail list in the next week for information about recruitment and author-editor coordination. Great to be a part of this project. 19:30 <CarstenG> If you are subscribed there, you get emails about all bugs... 19:30 <hannie> JimConnett, thank you for being with us. see you 19:30 <godbyk> jmarsden: Good idea. I'll have to look into that, too. 19:30 <hannie> jmarsden, good idea 19:30 <JimConnett> ...also, my new email address is jim@jimconnett.com. Both old and new email addresses work, but I'm going to be moving to the new address for this project. Have a great day. 19:31 <hannie> I suggest we continue discussion on bug fixing using the mailing list 19:31 <CarstenG> see you 19:31 <godbyk> hannie: Sounds good. 19:31 <hannie> #action hannie will start discussion on bug fixing on the mailing list 19:31 * meetingology hannie will start discussion on bug fixing on the mailing list 19:32 <hannie> Last topic: 19:32 <hannie> #topic lubuntu 19:32 <hannie> finally we get at lubuntu ;) 19:32 <godbyk> Did we scare off all the Lubuntu guys yet? ;-) 19:32 <ThomasC> hannie: can i add a topic? it would help me greatly... 19:32 * jmarsden is still here :) 19:32 <ThomasC> And i want to help with Lubuntu! :) 19:32 <hannie> godbyk, I think your explanation on the different possibilities was great 19:33 <Yorvyk> o/ 19:33 <hannie> so, we have 3 lubuntu people here 19:33 <godbyk> Thanks for sticking with us, guys. Sorry it took so long to get to this topic. 19:33 <hannie> Yorvyk, what do you think of the suggestions godbyk wrote on the mailing list? 19:34 <hannie> One moment, see if I can open that email.... 19:35 <Yorvyk> Basically he confirmed what I'd thought 19:35 <c7p> sry dc 19:35 <godbyk> https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg04133.html 19:36 * phillw is back 19:36 <Yorvyk> Sorry I'm in a pub and I'm going to have to move to another area. BRB 19:36 <godbyk> phillw: Just in time! :) 19:36 <godbyk> So are you interested in going with the PDF-only route? 19:37 <hannie> Could other flavors make manuals under the umbrella of the Ubuntu Manual Project? 19:37 <godbyk> hannie: I don't have any problems with that. 19:37 <phillw> godbyk: does the pdf version retain links? 19:37 <godbyk> phillw: Yes. 19:38 <phillw> that would kill two birds with one stone and reduce our workload for a small team! 19:38 <phillw> excellent :D 19:38 <godbyk> Currently, the Ubuntu Manual project uses LaTeX for our work. 19:38 <godbyk> With LaTeX, we generate PDFs. 19:38 <godbyk> In addition to the free PDFs, we also offer printed editions of the manual that we currently publish through CreateSpace. 19:39 <phillw> is there any move to doodle planned? 19:39 <Yorvyk> I would stick with PDFs, unless there is demand for something else 19:39 <jmarsden> I think there is enough interest in a Ubuntu Manual-derived Lubuntu Manual that we should figure out how to make it happen -- do we do it as a fork of the Ubuntu Manual bzr repository, or as a sudirectory of it, or even with #ifdef like handling of the chunks of the LaTeX that need to differ between the two? 19:39 <godbyk> We do not currently offer other ebook formats though this is something I'd like to try to do in the future. 19:39 <hannie> sticking to pdf makes things easier I think 19:39 <phillw> hannie: +1 19:40 <godbyk> jmarsden: I would probably just have a lubuntu-manual bzr repository and you can pull across the existing framework and files that you're interested in sharing. 19:40 <godbyk> phillw: doodle? 19:41 <phillw> godbyk: ubuntu-doc are evidently going to be using it. 19:41 <hannie> godbyk, phillw, Yorvyk may I suggest we work out a plan of close cooperation and publish lubuntu under the umbrella of the ubuntu Manual Project? 19:41 <godbyk> phillw: Ah, I haven't heard anything about it. Do you have a link? ubuntu-doc is using Mallard at the moment. 19:41 <godbyk> hannie: I think that sounds like a good idea. 19:41 <phillw> godbyk: I'll dig the links out for you l8er :) 19:41 <Yorvyk> That is what I was hopping for, with out placing too much burdon on you. 19:42 <godbyk> phillw: No problem. Thanks! 19:42 <godbyk> Yorvyk: We have a little bit of downtime between releases, so it's a good time to sort this out. :) 19:43 <jmarsden> godbyk: OK. I can probably set the bzr stuff up if no one else beats me to it :) Maybe we can have a "vendor" subtree with the ubuntu manual sources in that we can sync from the Ubuntu Manual bzr tree from time to time, or something like that. 19:43 <hannie> phillw, Yorvyk does your lubuntu team have a mailing list or irc channel? 19:43 <phillw> Yorvyk: I think it would it would be better for us go the manual route, and drop doodle. That means we just have wiki and lubuntu-manual to concentrate on. 19:43 <jmarsden> hannie: #lubuntu and #lubuntu-offtopic here on Freenode 19:43 <hannie> jmarsden, I should address you too, sorry 19:44 <jmarsden> phillw: +1 19:44 <jmarsden> hannie: And the lubuntu-users mailing list 19:44 <hannie> ok 19:44 <phillw> there is a lubuntu-wiki-docs team at https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-wiki-docs 19:45 <jmarsden> hannie: Would you prefer we use ubuntu-manual mailing list for discussion as Lubuntu Manual ramps up, or use other channels so we don't add "noise" for those doing the Ubuntu Manual?? 19:46 <godbyk> jmarsden: For now, let's use the ubuntu-manual mailing list. 19:46 <jmarsden> Ok with me. phillw, does that work for you? 19:46 <godbyk> jmarsden: If it gets to be too much then we can look into a new mailing list. 19:46 <Yorvyk> OK with me. 19:46 <hannie> jmarsden, yes, that would be very convenient 19:46 <godbyk> The ubuntu-manual mailing list and IRC channel are fairly low-traffic, so I don't think it'll be a problem. 19:46 <phillw> jmarsden: we can use the lubuntu-wiki-docs one for getting the ideas across 19:47 <hannie> sending a copy to our mailing list is fine 19:47 <jmarsden> OK. 19:47 <phillw> but If the ubuntu-manual team are happy with us using their good offices, that's great :) 19:47 <ThomasC> I mean, i know its not my part to do so, but i can make a channel named #lubuntu-manual for now, and someone else can set it up eventually. 19:48 <hannie> So, shall we continue our discussion on cooperation through our mailing list? 19:48 <jmarsden> BTW I downloaded the Ubuntu Manual bzr tree and installed tools and built the PDF last night, just as a starting point... 19:48 <godbyk> ThomasC: I think we're okay using #ubuntu-manual for now. 19:48 <hannie> jmarsden, that is great 19:48 <godbyk> jmarsden: Ah, cool. Did you encounter any problems? 19:48 <phillw> we do similar with lubuntu-quality, where a lot gets cc'd to ubuntu-quality, but we can still discuss pure lubuntu things amongst ourselves and not clutter up peoples' inboxes. 19:48 <Yorvyk> I'd rather stick with ubuntu-manual for now so people don't get isolated in to too many small groups 19:49 <jmarsden> godbyk: The script seems a little odd in places but I worked through it. The info on your web site assumes using a non-packaged version of texlibe, I';d prefer update it to recommend using packages now that they do in fact work. 19:49 <jmarsden> *texlive 19:49 <hannie> Are there still any questions before I close this meeting? 19:49 <ThomasC> hannie: I have a few 19:49 <godbyk> jmarsden: I'd love to heard your feedback. I think we encountered problems with the Ubuntu packages when it came to translations. 19:50 <jmarsden> godbyk: Ok, will post to the ubuntu-manual mailing list which I just subscribed to. 19:50 <hannie> ThomasC, go ahead 19:50 <godbyk> jmarsden: Thanks! 19:50 <jmarsden> godbyk: Apparently someone needs to approve me :) 19:50 <godbyk> jmarsden: I just did 19:51 <jmarsden> Thanks. 19:51 <phillw> godbyk: ditto :) 19:51 <ThomasC> I was going to propose a possible full chapter about Wine on ubuntu. I wanted to add explanations about adding prerequisites, as well as have compatability issues that are common listed there, with some trouleshooting. 19:52 <godbyk> phillw: Approved. :) 19:52 <phillw> thnx 19:52 <hannie> ThomasC, we should not make the wine section too comprehensive (that is just my opinion) but 19:52 <godbyk> ThomasC: Having an entire chapter on Wine might be a bit much. We'd like to keep it a 'getting started' guide so it doesn't get too large. 19:53 <hannie> you must write what is necessary for the users to understand how wine works 19:53 <ThomasC> Alright. Another idea i had (if this one was blew out of the water) was create a tiny "enhanced" manual that would contain Wine on Ubuntu, LuBuntu, and Kubuntu. 19:54 <ThomasC> I can create it an compile it off-bzr locally. 19:54 <godbyk> ThomasC: So a short, self-contained guide for Wine? 19:54 <hannie> ThomasC, of course you can always publish a manual on Wine yourself 19:54 <ThomasC> That is correct. But we could leave the basics in the manual, possibly. 19:55 <jmarsden> "Getting started with Wine in Ubuntu 13.10" - sounds workable to me, but I'd suggest you keep the sources and tools within the Ubuntu Manual project, just create a separate PDF. 19:55 <hannie> Yes, the basics in the manual are fine 19:55 <godbyk> ThomasC: That's a possibility. 19:55 <ThomasC> Ill make an entirely new folder then. 19:55 <ThomasC> and put it up in a revision 19:56 <godbyk> At one point we'd discussed having spin-off guides. For example, an installation guide, a Wine guide, and so forth. 19:56 <hannie> I think it is a completely different story to start publishing separate manuals on special subjects 19:56 <godbyk> But we've never gotten around to actually doing it. 19:56 <godbyk> hannie: I agree. 19:57 <godbyk> I think that each guide would need to have its own authors, editors, etc. 19:57 <hannie> Shall we leave this for later? I think we have discussed enough for the moment 19:57 <ThomasC> I mean, you don't have to publish it with the Ubuntu manual, its just a proposition of an idea. 19:57 <ThomasC> and yes. 19:57 <hannie> If there are no more questions, I will close the meeting 19:57 <ThomasC> I'm done. 19:57 <hannie> #endmeeting