18:04:51 <godbyk> #startmeeting
18:04:51 <meetingology> Meeting started Sat Jun  9 18:04:51 2012 UTC.  The chair is godbyk. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
18:04:51 <meetingology> 
18:04:51 <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
18:05:03 <hannie> http://typewith.me/p/UMP-12-04-5thMeeting
18:05:04 <godbyk> The meeting agenda is at <http://typewith.me/p/UMP-12-04-5thMeeting>
18:05:16 <godbyk> #topic Attendance
18:05:20 <godbyk> First off, we'll take attendance.
18:05:28 <godbyk> If everyone present could just say 'hello'.
18:05:29 * c7p waves
18:05:31 <hannie> hey c7p
18:05:32 <godbyk> Hey, c7p.
18:05:33 <PaddyLandau> hello
18:05:34 <c7p> hello
18:05:35 <thorwil> hello
18:05:35 <kereltis> hello
18:05:36 <TonyP> hello
18:05:36 <jimc> hello
18:05:42 <ajmontag> hello
18:05:48 <carsten> hello
18:05:53 <hannie> hello
18:06:03 <godbyk> Thanks.
18:06:11 <godbyk> #topic New member introductions
18:06:23 <godbyk> Do we have any new members here today?
18:06:31 <PaddyLandau> Yes, I am a new member.
18:06:44 <TonyP> I am Tony Pursell.  I live in the UK.  You can see me at https://launchpad.net/~ajpursell and http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TonyPursell. I have volunteered to do editing on this project
18:06:59 <jimc> I am. Glad to be here.  Have been contributing for about three weeks now. Great project. An honor to be a part of this work in progress.
18:07:38 <PaddyLandau> I see I need to say more. I also live in the UK, in Oxford. I volunteered for proof-reading after being asked to. I am not familiar with IRC, so please forgive me if I make etiquette mistakes.
18:07:40 <godbyk> Awesome! Thanks a lot for your help, guys.  Feel free to pester us with questions on IRC or the mailing list.
18:07:48 <hannie> jimc, PaddyLandau TonyP carsten all new and eager
18:07:54 <PaddyLandau> LOL
18:08:27 <godbyk> #topic Editing and proofreading process / status reports
18:08:53 <godbyk> Our original schedule has 15 June as the deadline for editing.
18:09:02 <godbyk> I wanted to check in with our editors to see how things are going.
18:09:14 <godbyk> Have you hit any snags or encountered any problems?
18:09:19 <godbyk> Are things going fairly smoothly?
18:09:30 <godbyk> Do you think you'll be able to complete your assigned sections/chapters on time?
18:10:26 <hannie> First we want to hear from the editors if they are ok, then I will say something about the status
18:10:43 <jimc> From my vantage, things are going well. Challenges include getting up to speed on tex tags and my obsessive editing.
18:10:53 <ajmontag> Have all the sections been converted from Libre Office to LaTeX that needed to be?
18:11:01 <TonyP> I should be OK with Ubuntu One section. I have done some and will review it again.
18:11:12 <hannie> ajmontag, yes
18:11:33 <jimc> Using the Desktop is pretty much done (will want to do one more pass through in a few days)
18:11:58 <jimc> I just finished editing the Advanced Topics section this morning...will commit and push later today.
18:12:00 <hannie> jimc, that was the chapter that needed a lot of work, so thanks for what you did
18:12:30 <jimc> hannie, no problem...sort of jumped directly into the fire with that one.
18:12:41 <hannie> good!
18:13:11 <jimc> I 'accidentally' edited the Burining CD section last night as well...still needs screenshots.
18:13:35 <hannie> jimc, ok, I will put it on the sheet
18:14:09 <jimc> The GettingOnline section needs more work and I'm taking care of that at this time.
18:14:15 <jimc> Anyone else?
18:14:58 <hannie> If editors have no questions or remarks, shall I proceed with the details?
18:15:07 <PaddyLandau> I have a question as a proof-reader. Is this the right time?
18:15:18 <godbyk> PaddyLandau: Sure, fire away!
18:15:23 <hannie> go ahead
18:15:35 <PaddyLandau> OK...
18:16:03 <PaddyLandau> I have been using gedit and Meld to edit the files. However, they do not show the finished product, which means it is easy to slip in syntax errors, e.g. with tags.
18:16:20 <PaddyLandau> I found that Gummi is a brilliant Latex editor, showing the results as you type.
18:16:22 <PaddyLandau> However...
18:16:39 <PaddyLandau> Gummi does not recognise many of the Ubuntu tags, such as \keystroke.
18:17:06 <PaddyLandau> Does anyone know if it is possible to add the Ubuntu style files (well, I'm presuming they are style files -- I may wrong) to Gummi?
18:17:18 <PaddyLandau> If not, don't worry, I'll just continue with gedit and Meld.
18:17:27 <TonyP> I just keep re-making the PDF
18:17:40 <PaddyLandau> That's quite tiresome, isn't it?
18:17:42 <godbyk> PaddyLandau: I haven't used Gummi. I'm not sure if it's possible to teach it the Ubuntu Manual tags or not. Sorry.
18:17:51 <jimc> WineFish is a great editor, especially with regards to tags (open close brackets)...parallels what you'd see in an IDE environment.  Worth a try.
18:18:02 <PaddyLandau> WineFish. I'll try it, thanks.
18:18:03 <hannie> PaddyLandau, you have installed TeX Live, so you can make the pdf file any time you want
18:18:20 <c7p> from what is see Gummi has  		Customizable compilation/typesetting options , is that what we need ?
18:18:37 <PaddyLandau> Hannie: I'll learn how to do that and see. It's not quite the same as seeing it immediately, but it would help.
18:19:04 <hannie> no wysiwyg
18:19:11 <PaddyLandau> c7p: Where did you see those options?
18:19:25 <jimc> I think getting everyone on the same editing environment would definitely advance the editing process...common environment, common configuration. May be a good thing to pursue for 12.10.
18:19:27 <c7p> http://dev.midnightcoding.org/projects/gummi/wiki/Index
18:19:29 <godbyk> PaddyLandau: Can gummi not compile the manual?
18:19:46 <PaddyLandau> c7p: Thanks, I'll look into it.
18:19:48 <jimc> I've tried Gummi, too...no compilation.
18:20:01 <PaddyLandau> godbyl: No, it cannot, because it does not recognise the Ubuntu tags.
18:20:07 <hannie> jimc, I think it does not matter what editor you use, as long as you put in the right code
18:20:15 <godbyk> Strange.
18:20:26 <PaddyLandau> Well, I'll have a look into it, and if I find an answer, I'll let you all know. Thanks for all the replies.
18:20:48 <godbyk> PaddyLandau: Make sure you have gummi compile using XeLaTeX instead of pdfLaTeX.
18:21:06 <godbyk> PaddyLandau: Otherwise, it should find the Ubuntu Manual�specific stuff in the same directory as the main .tex file.
18:21:10 <PaddyLandau> Hmm, these are things I don't quite understand. Is that in the Gummi options?
18:21:23 <jimc> hannie, but a lack of uniformity in how we implement tags could be easily resolved with an importable xml file into any editor
18:21:49 <godbyk> PaddyLandau: Looking at the screenshots, it's under preferences > compilation tab > texlive with xetex
18:21:59 <jimc> PaddyLandau, I'll give this a try!  Thanks.  Would be nice to see edits live.
18:22:17 * c7p it looks interesting
18:22:24 <hannie> I suggest we exchange experiences with Gummi on the mailing list
18:22:30 <PaddyLandau> Ah, I see that. I do not have the option to change it. It is set at TexLive with PdfTex, and the other options are greyed out.
18:22:35 <jimc> I also have a question (seems a little pithy with the previous discussion)...
18:22:35 <godbyk> There are other editors that can do some live compiling, too.  I believe TeXworks can do that.
18:22:51 <jimc> Can we agree on one space after a period or two?  I think the accepted standard is ONE, but I'm seeing both.
18:23:04 <hannie> jimc, one
18:23:04 <PaddyLandau> godbyk: I'll have a look at TeXworks, thanks.
18:23:13 <godbyk> jimc: It doesn't matter in the source. LaTeX will use the proper spacing when it typesets it.
18:23:22 <hannie> two is one too much
18:23:34 <jimc> godbyk, AWESOME...thanks.
18:23:35 <PaddyLandau> jimc: Two spaces came from the old days of manual and electronic typewriters; one space is handled correctly with modern automated typesetting.
18:23:45 <PaddyLandau> So, one space is the standard these days.
18:24:01 <jimc> PaddyLandau, beauty!  No more looking for spaces.
18:24:20 <jimc> I have no more questions.
18:24:27 <hannie> thanks for the tip, godbyk didn't know that
18:24:45 <godbyk> Okay, hannie. Did you want to talk about editing a bit?
18:25:08 <hannie> ok, I will talk about some details (agenda)
18:25:29 <hannie> 1. Allow authors to write in LO
18:25:47 <hannie> I think it is too much work converting odt files, so I am against it
18:26:00 <godbyk> We'll put these under their own topics to make the minutes easier to read.
18:26:04 <godbyk> #topic Editing with LibreOffice
18:26:20 <hannie> right
18:26:45 <hannie> What do other think about this?
18:26:51 <hannie> *others
18:27:06 <PaddyLandau> I personally would find editing in LO a distraction, because it would all have to be converted to LaTex.
18:27:08 <godbyk> I tend to agree with hannie: I think it's easier if we get edited .tex files (even if they have syntax errors or other issues).
18:27:12 <carsten> Sorry, I lost internet connection...
18:27:13 <jimc> I agree, too, Hannie.  Our previous discussion about editing applications prove that there is really no advantage to using LO.
18:27:21 <thorwil> it could be handled, if there was automatic conversion
18:27:24 <carsten> What did I miss?
18:27:43 <thorwil> but i guess we have no one deep enough in LO/ODF to take care of that
18:27:46 <c7p> i agree too
18:27:47 <hannie> carsten, we currently talk about odt file conversion
18:27:48 <PaddyLandau> carsten: Is it possible to cut-and-paste and send it to you?
18:27:49 <kereltis> I think it's a good idea, it will attract more authors/editors to the project and then we can say the manual was created using stock Ubuntu.
18:27:59 <jimc> Most tex editors are simply TEXT editors at heart (can you say Windows NotePad?)...with added features if desired.
18:28:36 <c7p> we should take that into consideration too kereltis
18:28:53 <hannie> I agree here. Authors do not necessarily have to add latex code. others can do it for them
18:29:23 <ajmontag> regarding odt conversion: I found that things like marginnotes, screenshot marginnotes, and menu -> traills did not get written properly in LO
18:29:27 <PaddyLandau> One problem with using LO is that you may be tempted to use features that LaTex does not support. That would hinder the process of converting.
18:29:30 <godbyk> Has anyone here been using LibreOffice to write/edit sections or chapters?
18:29:35 <jimc> IF we go this path, we may need a little more organization at the odt integration level...seems we got a few "late" submissions this time around.
18:29:41 <carsten> PaddyLandau: You mean an odf file? Sure send it.
18:29:50 <jimc> godbyk, not I.
18:29:52 <hannie> carsten, is the specialist here ;)
18:29:54 <carsten> Best would be to the list
18:30:45 <carsten> Well, specialist is good^^
18:30:46 <godbyk> Okay.
18:31:00 <carsten> Most of this work is handmade :-)
18:31:12 <hannie> PaddyLandau, you can save an odt file as a text file and then add the code
18:31:15 <godbyk> When I've converted from LibreOffice files to .tex files, I found that it took a lot of work to add the markup by hand after the fact.
18:31:41 <godbyk> I had to read through everything carefully and decide myself how to tag everything. (And to figure out when the author wanted something to be a margin note, for instance.)
18:31:49 <jimc> godbyk, haven't done this, but EASILY agree based on my new experiences.
18:31:50 <hannie> So, may we conclude that it is better NOT to write in LO?
18:31:55 <PaddyLandau> Hannie: I suppose I could, but gedit colours the tags and other code to make it easier to follow. LO does not do that.
18:32:07 <ajmontag> I think it would be better to force people to write in LaTeX, but then have designated LaTeX proofreaders for those who are not confident
18:32:24 <PaddyLandau> ajmontag: That makes sense to me.
18:32:27 <godbyk> I propose the following:
18:32:31 <hannie> ajmontag, no, they can write in a normal text editor
18:32:32 <ajmontag> godbyk: i agree
18:32:43 <jimc> ajmontag, and by doing this (specific LaTeX editors), you will bring uniformity to the tags...brilliant!
18:33:09 <godbyk> We'll disallow LibreOffice. For those who don't want to or aren't able to compile the .tex files, they can submit their .tex files to an editor and have one of them check the syntax and commit it to bzr.
18:33:25 <PaddyLandau> jimc, etc.: Surely the person can use whichever *text* editor he prefers?
18:33:28 <hannie> +1
18:33:47 <ajmontag> hannie, jimc: I think people can use any editor (i use Sublime Text 2)
18:33:47 <godbyk> PaddyLandau: I think you can use whichever text editor you like.
18:34:10 <PaddyLandau> godbyk: Cool. If we can find a LaTex editor that recognises Ubuntu tags, that would help things, but it wouldn't be mandatory.
18:34:24 <ajmontag> text editors are a personal preference
18:34:33 <jimc> ...I meant specific PEOPLE who would be designated as LaTeX editors.
18:34:40 <godbyk> PaddyLandau: Right. You can also run 'make' from the command line to build the PDF.
18:34:53 <jimc> ...the small group of LaTeX editors could agree on tags to use, when, etc.
18:35:14 <ajmontag> jimc, good idea
18:35:35 <hannie> jimc, that is how it mainly works at this moment (latex editors who check/add code where necessary)
18:35:36 <PaddyLandau> We have the style-sheet guide already, to which I have been referring quite often.
18:35:54 <TonyP> Can you just compile small sections to PDF?
18:36:09 <godbyk> TonyP: There's no easy way to do that at the moment, I'm afraid.
18:36:20 <jimc> hannie, PaddyLandau, true.
18:36:23 <TonyP> Pity
18:36:39 <godbyk> Speaking of the style guide, if anyone has any questions / suggestions / comments / concerns / etc. about it please email me.
18:36:43 <PaddyLandau> godbyk: That would be a problem for me, as I only get short sections to proof-read. That's why I wanted something like Gummi (sorry to mention it again).
18:36:44 <carsten> TonyP, yes. Just comment all sections which you don't want to see in the main.tex
18:36:45 <jimc> TonyP, agreed.  That would be NICE!
18:37:09 <jimc> carsten, UGH!  That would take forever, wouldn't it?
18:37:29 <hannie> PaddyLandau, you can easily navigate to "your" section in the pdf file
18:37:53 <godbyk> My only concern with modifying main.tex to only show your chapter is that it might accidentally get committed to bzr.
18:38:15 <PaddyLandau> Hannie: Yes, I have been doing that. But I would not be able to "make" the PDF file from the section that you have given me, so I have no way to check my editing for syntax or other errors, apart from spelling mistakes.
18:38:35 <godbyk> PaddyLandau: Ah, right. You'll need all the .tex files to build the PDF.
18:39:05 <hannie> PaddyLandau, why don't you just navigate to the section you are working on to check it?
18:39:10 <jimc> Me thinks it would be MUCH faster to re-make everytime than to comment out sections.
18:39:52 <godbyk> jimc: Probably.
18:40:02 <TonyP> Is it possible to have a make option to use a mymain.tex
18:40:02 <jimc> hannie, I think PaddyLandau is trying to find a way to ONLY compile the section being edited rather than the 150 page manual each time a change is made.
18:40:04 <PaddyLandau> godbyk: That's right. That's why I'd love a text editor that shows changes on-the-fly. I will take today's suggestions to try to find out how to fix Gummi or an equivalent to recognise Ubuntu's tags, and let you all know if I succeed.
18:40:13 <PaddyLandau> Hannie: I can't do that, because I can't make the PDF.
18:40:17 <hannie> I see no need for making separate sections/chapters. Make only takes less than a minute
18:40:23 <godbyk> It does take a little time to learn to trust your abilities in editing the .tex files. But after a while, you find that you don't need to rebuild the PDF as frequently to check formatting, etc.
18:40:51 <hannie> It is done in a jiffy
18:41:06 <jimc> godbyk, experience speaking, I agree.
18:41:10 <ajmontag> godbyk, agreed. Once you are comfortable with the tags its not a big deal
18:41:13 <PaddyLandau> Maybe I'm missing something. Is it possible to make the PDF when I have just the one section that I am proof-reading?
18:41:17 <hannie> godbyk, enough said on LO?
18:41:26 <jimc> PaddyLandau, NO.
18:41:26 <ajmontag> If you are unsure you can always check the style guide :)
18:41:27 <godbyk> PaddyLandau: No. You need the entire bzr repository to build the PDF
18:41:38 <PaddyLandau> godbyk: Yes, that's what I was thinking.
18:41:43 <jimc> godbyk, yes
18:41:46 <godbyk> hannie: I think so.
18:41:59 <godbyk> Let's move on to our next agenda item.
18:42:03 <jimc> GO
18:42:11 <godbyk> #topic Authors and editors working as a team
18:42:13 <godbyk> Hannie?
18:42:18 <hannie> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ar0Z6vOO38EydEdaSnhSX2M2WDdSZ3VGQk1qMDZBbHc#gid=1
18:42:39 <carsten> Well jimc, I yust tried the \begin{comment   \end{comment} in main.tex to compile only the installation section. It took the only 15 sec compared to the whole document with 1 minute.
18:42:44 <hannie> Status draft
18:43:28 <hannie> godbyk, I pasted a link to our spreadsheet where everyone can see the current status
18:43:30 <jimc> carsten, AHHHH, my bad...forgot about the main.tex file.  I was thinking all sub- .tex files would need editing!  My apologies.
18:43:32 <godbyk> carsten: You might also look into the \includeonly macro. But be careful that you never commit your main.tex changes to bzr. It'll confuse everyone else. :-)
18:44:11 <carsten> Yes of course godbyk.
18:44:12 <c7p> gj hannie
18:44:19 <hannie> Have a look at the sheet 12.04 finished
18:44:27 <godbyk> hannie: Thanks. Are there sections that still need editors or do we have everything covered now?
18:44:58 <carsten> I use Bazaar Explorer, who is showing very well which files are modified.
18:45:01 <hannie> I think we can cover it with the team of editors we have
18:45:16 <hannie> Thanks to all their hard work!
18:45:18 <jimc> ....not to throw us off topic, but one quick question...
18:46:03 <hannie> jimc, ?
18:46:05 <jimc> will we have a debrief after 12.04 is released? I have a few suggestions on the editing process (structurally).
18:46:17 <godbyk> jimc: Absolutely.
18:46:21 <hannie> good suggestion
18:46:26 <jimc> Great.  Thanks.
18:46:32 <PaddyLandau> Another off-topic: May I ask why the deadline for the manual is *after* the release of the distribution? It seems the wrong way around to me.
18:46:35 <godbyk> jimc: We'd definitely like to gather suggestions and ideas for improving the process for 12.10.
18:46:51 <jimc> godbyk, count me in!
18:47:04 <hannie> PaddyLandau, not everyone installs the beta version in VM
18:47:11 <godbyk> PaddyLandau: Well, we got a late start.
18:47:18 <jimc> PaddyLandau, the software has to be released in it's final version before a manual can be written.
18:47:35 <PaddyLandau> Hannie, godbyk, jimc: OK.
18:47:36 <godbyk> PaddyLandau: Also, we do have to wait to take screenshots until after UI freeze, for instance.
18:47:51 <PaddyLandau> Right, makes sense.
18:47:59 <hannie> I think the difference between precise and quantal will be even smaller
18:48:03 <kereltis> PaddyLandau, we're working on ways to improve this and we have created a guide for installing the beta in a vm for new authors
18:48:05 <godbyk> We could write a lot of the manual earlier -- as long as they don't change things at the last minute. :)
18:48:14 <jimc> LTS vs minor!  Wohoo!
18:48:23 <PaddyLandau> LOL, godbyk, yes, I know exactly what you mean! It has been done with Precise.
18:48:50 <hannie> Next time we'll do it in one month :)
18:49:03 <c7p> hell yeah !
18:49:03 <godbyk> hannie: Shall we move on to the next topic or did you have more to say on this one?
18:49:05 <jimc> hannie, you a taskmaster!
18:49:15 <hannie> godbyk, ok
18:49:31 <godbyk> #topic Style guide
18:49:56 <hannie> godbyk, you forgot teams
18:50:09 <godbyk> This deals with when you use \menu vs. \application. The capitalization and spelling of words. Etc.
18:50:20 <godbyk> hannie: That's what we were just discussing. :)
18:50:30 <godbyk> Do you want to go back to that?
18:50:50 <hannie> godbyk, the previous item was "Status draft"
18:51:04 <godbyk> hannie: The previous topic was "Authors and editors working as a team"
18:51:21 <godbyk> #topic Authors and editors working as a team (redux)
18:51:34 <hannie> Well, I just wanted to know from authors/editors if they want to use a shared document
18:51:42 <godbyk> hannie: Ah, go ahead.
18:52:06 <hannie> In the previous meeting Bryan explained how we worked with Learning More
18:52:33 <hannie> We use a shared document (just publish the .tex file in UbuntuOne)
18:52:47 <PaddyLandau> A shared document would be a problem if there was not strict locking on sections that were being worked on. I don't know, however, how it would affect your (Hannie's) workflow as a controller.
18:52:56 <hannie> So author and editor can see what is changed and they can discuss it if necessary
18:53:13 <hannie> PaddyLandau, you share it only with your editor
18:53:14 <godbyk> PaddyLandau: I think the document is shared only between the author and their section/chapter editor.
18:53:21 <PaddyLandau> Oh, I see. How would it work exactly?
18:53:58 <hannie> The author publishes his .tex file, the editor adds changes which the author can see
18:54:19 <PaddyLandau> OK. That would do away with your current method of working with Meld, I suppose?
18:54:37 <jimc> PaddyLandau, if there were locking controls in shared environment where only "assigned" editors would have access to authored sections, then I would be in agreement with this approach.
18:54:37 <hannie> if there is a disagreement or a special point they can discuss it in the comment section
18:55:06 <PaddyLandau> I don't have a problem with that, as long as the editor in question highlights the syntax (as gedit does at the moment).
18:55:17 <hannie> It worked well for me, so if others want to do the same they can do so
18:55:21 <PaddyLandau> Without that highlighting, it becomes hard to find one's way around.
18:55:38 <godbyk> PaddyLandau: You could use whichever text editor you like. It'll be a .tex file on your computer.
18:55:41 <jimc> Maybe try this approach with 12.10 since we've already established it would be minor at best?
18:56:01 <jimc> hannie, would this create another layer of management and logistics for you?
18:56:21 <hannie> ok, I can describe this in an email to the m/list
18:56:51 <hannie> jimc, it would need less emails from my side
18:57:11 <carsten> hannie: this would be good
18:57:12 <jimc> hannie, good that it's a win for you, then.
18:57:14 <PaddyLandau> I have no objection if it helps your workflow.
18:57:24 <hannie> Now I function as an intermediate
18:57:46 <hannie> ok, I will send an email on this
18:57:54 <hannie> for the next version
18:58:05 <jimc> I think this is a great idea!
18:58:22 <hannie> godbyk, before you get confused, next item is create wiki page ;)
18:58:26 <jimc> Could we get U1 to comp us a 10GB space? (*grin*)
18:58:37 <godbyk> hannie: I like to reword them to confuse you. :-P
18:58:40 <ajmontag> I have to leave, its nice to have such a good turn out! Thanks for all your work, editors!
18:58:45 <godbyk> #topic Style guide
18:58:49 <hannie> lol
18:58:54 <godbyk> Thanks for coming, ajmontag.
18:59:07 <hannie> bye ajmontag thank you for being with us
18:59:12 <PaddyLandau> Bye ajmontag
18:59:19 <jimc> Style guide...GO
18:59:21 <kereltis> cya ajmontag
18:59:23 <carsten> Bye ajmontag
18:59:35 <c7p> cya
18:59:46 <hannie> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual
19:00:28 <kereltis> very nice!
19:00:32 <hannie> I am thinking of using a wiki page where everyone can add remarks, rules etc. See my link
19:00:33 * godbyk is scared to look at the ancient wiki.
19:00:38 <c7p> :P
19:01:18 <hannie> we can wipe out what's there and use it for other things
19:01:22 <godbyk> I think that the good part of using a wiki for the style guide stuff is that it's easy for everyone to access.  (Easier than downloading a PDF, at least.)
19:01:52 <godbyk> A bad point is that anyone can change it so we may lose consistency.
19:01:54 <hannie> Example: our translation team uses a wiki vocabulary where everyone can add words
19:02:03 <PaddyLandau> hannie, what sort of remarks? I notice in the agenda that you mention things like tags, panels, and so forth. But aren't they all already in the style guide?
19:02:08 <jimc> I agree with godbyk...more dynamic...seemingly less work in the end.
19:02:32 <kereltis> sticking with the LTS latest LTS release is probably a good thing though so it's not really that old :)
19:02:47 <hannie> PaddyLandau, I gave the \menu example because in the previous version we used \application{Dash}
19:02:51 <jimc> I also agree with godbyk (again)...welcome to the world of WIKIs!
19:03:10 <PaddyLandau> Right, so it would list things that you may not be aware of that have changed in the guide?
19:03:19 <PaddyLandau> And other things, too, I realise.
19:03:21 <hannie> Wiki's have advantages and disadvantages
19:03:22 <godbyk> Our current style guide is at <http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf>
19:03:37 <PaddyLandau> godbyk: Yes, I refer to that quite often.
19:03:38 <godbyk> I update it occasionally, but haven't been keeping up with it as much as I'd like.
19:04:01 <godbyk> I'm definitely open to suggestions with regard to the style guide.
19:04:18 <hannie> I do not mean to put the style guide on a wiki. I talk about general rules (grammar, spelling, etc.)
19:04:18 <PaddyLandau> And with a Wiki, it would take some of the pressure of you?
19:04:28 <godbyk> I most recently added a Word List chapter that shows the proper spelling and formatting of some terms. I plan on expanding this greatly as I edit the 12.04 manual.
19:04:29 <carsten> godbyk, one point for the pdf style guide: It doesnt
19:04:57 <carsten> ... need so much empty pages. It is no book to print, or?
19:05:23 <hannie> ok, my suggestion for a wiki page is not such a good one. NP:)
19:05:29 <godbyk> carsten: Ah, you're probably right. I'm just using the same template as we're using for the manual itself.
19:05:49 <godbyk> hannie: We could add some of that to the style guide, too.
19:06:02 <jimc> Hmm...I'm leaning more toward the style guide being more "controlled" than what is offered in a wiki environment.
19:06:03 <carsten> I think, its a working document, where you want to see a lot information with one view
19:06:09 <godbyk> hannie: Though I think it may be easier to point to existing sources for general grammar rules.  (There are too many for us to cover alone.)
19:06:27 <godbyk> The Ubuntu Docs wiki has a style guide with some grammar remarks (though not nearly exhaustive).
19:06:55 <hannie> right. One more remark on this:
19:06:56 <godbyk> jimc: I agree with you there.
19:07:21 <hannie> we discussed on the list when to add the tag \application and when not. But I cannot find it in the archive
19:07:27 <godbyk> Here's the docs team style guide: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/StyleGuide
19:07:38 <hannie> Therefore I was thinking of putting things we discussed on a wiki page
19:07:50 <hannie> or in the style guide (even better)
19:08:03 <TonyP> The style guide seems wrong about \application
19:08:22 <hannie> TonyP, we discussed in on the mailing list
19:08:31 <carsten> And for the wiki version of the style guide: You can get emails from the system, if the page is changed, so you can easily follow any modification.
19:08:34 <hannie> but I forgot what we decided
19:08:54 <godbyk> TonyP: In what way?
19:09:01 * godbyk pulls up his copy of the style guide.
19:09:35 <hannie> godbyk, in Browsing the web I see a lot of \application{Dash}
19:09:43 <hannie> and \aplication{Launcher}
19:10:01 <hannie> *p
19:10:04 <TonyP> What should it do?
19:10:12 <hannie> \menu
19:10:14 <godbyk> hannie: I noticed that the other day, too, but haven't fixed it yet. Since those aren't stand-alone applications, I don't think they should be tagged as such.
19:10:37 <hannie> No, we discussed that on the mailing list like I said
19:10:37 <godbyk> TonyP: At the moment, it doesn't do anything. It used to mark the text in bold and add an entry to the index automatically.
19:11:18 <hannie> godbyk, is tag \application no longer an entry to the index?
19:11:41 <godbyk> hannie: It isn't at the moment, though we can add that back easily enough.
19:12:11 <hannie> the disadvantage is that if you use it all the time the index gets clogged
19:12:43 <godbyk> hannie: Here's an old thread about \application: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg02835.html
19:12:52 <godbyk> We discussed it more recently, too. Lemme find the thread.
19:13:34 <hannie> Yes, I remember we discussed \index with MarioB
19:13:56 <godbyk> Okay, it looks like the more recent thread isn't in the archives yet.
19:13:56 <hannie> Again, when we decide something via the list it should be noted somewhere
19:14:06 <TonyP> The Style Guide says: The names of applications should be typeset with the
19:14:08 <TonyP> \application command. is will add the application to the index auto-
19:14:10 <TonyP> matically.
19:14:13 <godbyk> It has the subject "Authors/editors chapter 2" and is dated May 23.
19:14:38 <godbyk> We discussed \application and \menu with jimc.
19:15:10 <hannie> Question: if the word Nautilus is used many times, should it always get the tag \applicatio?
19:15:20 <hannie> *n
19:15:21 <godbyk> TonyP: That used to be true. Now it's still true except for the index bit. (Though that may change soon, too. I'll have to try it and see what we didn't like about it.)
19:15:38 <PaddyLandau> Here we are: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg03085.html
19:16:47 <godbyk> PaddyLandau: Thanks!
19:16:55 <godbyk> So the message that I wrote in that thread was <https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg03093.html>
19:17:24 <godbyk> Something else we need to decide on is when/how to capitalize dash, launcher, etc.
19:17:44 <godbyk> The official Ubuntu docs seems to be inconsistent there, so we'll have to decide for ourselves how to handle this issue.
19:17:45 <hannie> godbyk, you took the words right out of my mouth ;)
19:18:04 <jimc> So...Dash, Launcher are /menu, Nautilus is /application, right?
19:18:09 <hannie> Dash or dash, Launcher or launcher is what I wanted to ask
19:18:14 <PaddyLandau> I agree that \application is only for what the general user would perceive as a program, and not for the dash or launcher.
19:18:35 <jimc> ...sorry, slashes the other way.
19:18:38 <PaddyLandau> I would always use capital letters for Dash and Launcher, as they are specific names for specific items quite unique to Ubuntu.
19:18:51 <jimc> I agree with PaddyLandau
19:18:51 <TonyP> Me too
19:19:04 <godbyk> jimc: I would use \menu for dash and launcher.
19:19:07 <hannie> +1
19:19:12 <PaddyLandau> Agreed.
19:19:15 <godbyk> jimc: \menu is only for pull-down menus like File, Edit, View.
19:19:26 <godbyk> jimc: And menu items like Open..., Save, Print..., Copy, etc.
19:19:56 <godbyk> jimc: You can also use \menu for menu items under the indicator menus.
19:20:00 <c7p> i don't have strong opinion here
19:20:03 <PaddyLandau> If not \menu for Dash or Launcher, then what?
19:20:21 <hannie> godbyk, in the previous discussion I thought it was decided to use \menu{Dash}
19:20:36 <godbyk> PaddyLandau: They don't necessarily need a tag.
19:20:42 <PaddyLandau> OK
19:20:45 <c7p> doesn't emph works ?
19:21:07 <PaddyLandau> I would use \emph only when introducing the words Dash or Launcher, otherwise it becomes a visual distraction.
19:21:13 <godbyk> c7p: \emph should only be used for \emph{adding emphesis} and not for formatting text (like names of things).
19:21:15 <hannie> So, conclusion: no tag for Dash and Launcher?
19:21:21 <c7p> ah ok
19:21:29 <PaddyLandau> OK
19:21:34 <godbyk> For now, I'd say no tag for Dash or Launcher.
19:21:57 <godbyk> Next question: Should we capitalize Dash/dash and Launcher/launcher?
19:22:01 <jimc> I'm good with no tags for Dash and Launcher, although it does require us to redit our sections.
19:22:06 <hannie> ok. How do we let those who are not present know?
19:22:13 <jimc> mailing-list
19:22:19 <godbyk> jimc: I can fix those pretty quickly. It's not a big deal.
19:22:37 <godbyk> I'll add it to the style guide and we can send a message to the mailing list as well.
19:22:39 <hannie> problem with m/list is that it comes and goes
19:22:52 <jimc> godbyk, ok.
19:23:04 <hannie> godbyk, good idea
19:23:18 <PaddyLandau> godbyk: "Should we capitalize Dash/dash and Launcher/launcher?" I am of the opinion that these are proper names, because they are specific items unique to Ubuntu.
19:23:23 <godbyk> hannie: That's what the new Word List chapter is for in the style guide. To track these little details. :)
19:23:37 <jimc> hannie, then do the mailing list, edit the style guide
19:23:47 <hannie> I am totally happy with that solution ;)
19:24:05 <jimc> I agree with PaddyLandau, it should be Dash and Launcher
19:24:10 <carsten> +1
19:24:31 <TonyP> +1
19:24:37 <hannie> godbyk, I think we have said enough about editing
19:24:56 <godbyk> Sounds good.  I'll add the capitalization note to the style guide, too, then.
19:25:21 <hannie> please do
19:25:42 <godbyk> As you're editing, if you encounter inconsistencies or have questions about how to format something, please email me and I'll help you out.
19:25:55 <godbyk> That'll also prompt me to add a note about it to the style guide so we can keep track of these things.
19:26:32 <godbyk> Are there any other questions at the moment about style, formatting, etc.?
19:26:39 <jimc> Do we want to talk briefly about indexing?
19:26:42 <godbyk> If not, we'll move to the next topic.
19:26:56 <godbyk> #topic Indexing the manual
19:27:01 <hannie> jimc, it is an item on the agenda
19:27:11 <godbyk> TonyP: Are you our indexer?
19:27:43 <TonyP> No, I just want to know about it
19:27:47 <hannie> it says: benonsoftware
19:27:51 <godbyk> Our manual's index hasn't been that great in the past and it'd be nice to make it useful.
19:27:58 <godbyk> TonyP: Okay, thanks.
19:28:10 <hannie> And didn't Mario do it the last time?
19:28:23 <godbyk> The way indexing works in LaTeX is that you add \index macros in the text where you refer to something that should appear in the index.
19:28:27 <c7p> he did a try at the last minute
19:28:37 <godbyk> The syntax for the \index macro is a bit complicated when you first discover it.
19:28:47 <jimc> I completely agree with godbyk.  This is a key area (from the user's perspective) that needs to be addressed.
19:29:06 <hannie> c7p, do you know who benonsoftware is and if he is doing glossary and index?
19:29:11 <godbyk> Since indexing requires that we edit each of the .tex files in the manual to add \index commands, I generally recommend waiting until the other editors have finished their work.
19:29:12 <jimc> godbyk, there are enough examples that if people just tried it a few times, they'd see the results.  That's how I learned.
19:29:18 <c7p> nope
19:29:30 <c7p> but he is on channel !
19:29:30 <godbyk> This means that the text shouldn't change any more and that the indexer won't cause bzr conflicts.
19:29:36 <TonyP> I am editing the Ubuntu One section and there are no index entries for it
19:29:51 <jimc> I've been adding index entries as I've been going along...
19:30:05 <hannie> c7p grey
19:30:11 <jimc> ...mostly based on the \subsection headings.
19:30:18 <godbyk> I'll contact benonsoftware to see if he's still interested in indexing the manual and work with him on the \index syntax and how to go about indexing.
19:30:31 <jimc> It's very easy to do as editors.
19:30:35 <c7p> good
19:30:40 <godbyk> If anyone else is interested in indexing their own sections/chapters, let me know and I'll help you out.
19:30:49 <godbyk> I need to write up some notes on it and add them to the style guide.
19:31:05 <PaddyLandau> godbyk: Please do write it up.
19:31:36 <jimc> I still think there needs to be a point person on indexing and glossary to ensure document consistency.
19:31:41 <godbyk> Indexing isn't too difficult. The biggest problems are: (1) figuring out the \index syntax, and (2) knowing what's good to add to the index and how to phrase it.
19:31:48 <godbyk> jimc: I agree.
19:32:13 <godbyk> Per hannie's spreadsheet, benonsoftware said he'd handle the index and glossary.
19:32:22 <godbyk> So we'll ping him and see if he's still up for that.
19:32:24 <jimc> godbyk, probably one of the last "steps" before publication.
19:32:31 <c7p> anyone here interested in indexing ?
19:32:34 <godbyk> jimc: Definitely.
19:32:38 <jimc> I will.
19:32:53 <jimc> When is the due date for the manual?
19:33:06 <PaddyLandau> 15th.
19:33:13 <jimc> the FINAL version
19:33:30 <godbyk> jimc: 30 June is when we'll release the final PDF and printed editions.
19:33:30 <hannie> June 30
19:34:34 <jimc> My opinion only, the indexing and glossary work should be done at a time when the manual is "frozen"
19:35:02 <kereltis> jimc, good point
19:35:05 <TonyP> Can I suggest...
19:35:10 <hannie> godbyk, I think we could be a week earlier since there should not be a week between end of editing and crocodoc
19:35:30 <godbyk> hannie: True. We'll see how it goes.
19:35:37 <jimc> crocodoc?
19:35:54 <godbyk> jimc: crocodoc is a website that allows online annotation of PDFs.
19:36:02 <godbyk> jimc: It's handy for having lots of people proofread your PDF.
19:36:08 <TonyP> Anyone can put in \index entries subject to so overall edit/review
19:36:16 <jimc> godbyk, ahh, ok.  Newbie here, remember!
19:36:24 <godbyk> jimc: See <ubuntu-manual.org/proofread/gswu1110/en> for example.
19:36:29 <hannie> I thought it very handy in the previous version (crocodoc)
19:36:50 <godbyk> jimc: No problem!
19:37:12 <godbyk> TonyP: Yes, I think that's fine. As long as people don't get *too* carried away with it. :)
19:37:35 <godbyk> I sneaked in an agenda item:
19:37:38 <jimc> Sorry to be anal about this, but users will more likely than not use the index to find how to do something...and will be less likely to read the manual cover to cover.  Therefore, the index (and glossary) is crucial to the success of the user and the utility of our work on this project.
19:37:39 <godbyk> #topic Screenshot editors
19:38:10 <godbyk> We've discussed this a bit previously and someone volunteered (I don't recall who). But I think we should have one or two screenshot editors to take/retake all the screenshots for the entire manual.
19:38:15 <TonyP> jimc: I agree
19:38:16 <godbyk> This will help ensure consistency.
19:38:22 <c7p> me too
19:38:34 <hannie> jimc, I agree on the need for a very good index
19:38:46 <godbyk> jimc: I agree completely. That's why I'd like to see the index improved greatly.
19:38:51 <jimc> I agree with the "screenshot" team
19:39:11 <jimc> godbyk, count me in....however I can help, I will.
19:39:20 <kereltis> agree with the "screenshot" team
19:39:25 <c7p> +1
19:39:36 <hannie> godbyk, I want to do screenshot editing as well
19:40:00 <godbyk> Okay.
19:40:04 <hannie> ah, 2 is enough: c7p and kereltis
19:40:05 <c7p> many of the screenshots have to be recaptured
19:40:15 <godbyk> Excellent.
19:40:35 <godbyk> Can you two coordinate between yourselves and retake all of the screenshots for the manual?
19:40:52 <c7p> i see that some of them have a red login button, others have been captured with a large resolutons etc
19:40:56 <godbyk> There are some screenshots that are still missing, too.
19:41:03 <c7p> that too
19:41:30 <godbyk> c7p: Right. We need to make sure that all the screenshots are taken at the same resolution.
19:41:38 <jimc> ...another Style Guide entry:  Screnshot resolution!
19:41:42 <c7p> there are also some great screenshots, so i guess they dont have to retake all the screenshots
19:41:54 <jimc> What defines great?
19:42:04 <PaddyLandau> Also sizes of screen-shots; there would need to be a maximum size to fit in a readable way.
19:42:04 <godbyk> With the default desktop and settings. Preferably with the same username, even.
19:42:15 <c7p> captured according to instructions + good looking on the pdf
19:42:29 <godbyk> c7p: Possibly. Though it's probably best to retake them anyway just in case.
19:42:39 <c7p> ok
19:42:44 <jimc> c7p, the first one requirement is subjective, the 2nd is objective
19:42:51 <hannie> godbyk, can you put my screenshot instructions in the style guide too?
19:42:53 <c7p> but in any case start from the problematic screenshots
19:42:58 <godbyk> hannie: Yep!
19:43:03 <hannie> thanks
19:43:27 <c7p> jimc: nope, 2nd isn't objective, i mean how clear a screenshot is
19:43:30 <jimc> c7p, I ask only to help the team determine what needs to be redone and what is acceptable...retaking ALL the screenshots seems to be a LOT of work.
19:43:37 <carsten> Just for interest: What is with this quickshot program?
19:43:41 <c7p> i agree with you
19:43:55 <godbyk> carsten: It's dead in the water at the moment.
19:44:02 <godbyk> carsten: We don't have anyone developing it.
19:44:04 <carsten> I thought it was desinged for this purpose?
19:44:10 <carsten> ah ok
19:44:24 <c7p> guys i g2g
19:44:33 <c7p> i'll check the logs later
19:44:35 <hannie> cya c7p
19:44:44 <carsten> bye c7p
19:44:48 <PaddyLandau> Goodbye
19:44:53 <godbyk> Okay, see you later, c7p!
19:44:55 <TonyP> bye c7p
19:44:55 <kereltis> cya c7p
19:45:21 <godbyk> I think that settles the screenshot editors topic, then.
19:45:27 <godbyk> #topic Any other questions or business?
19:45:36 <godbyk> Does anyone have any other questions or issues to raise?
19:45:41 <hannie> I have no questions
19:45:47 <PaddyLandau> Not from me.
19:45:52 <kereltis> not from me
19:46:11 <jimc> Lots to digest, but I think I'm good (if not, you'll see me in the mailing-list!)
19:46:23 <godbyk> Okay, sounds good guys.
19:46:29 <godbyk> Keep up the great work!
19:46:33 <carsten> One
19:46:33 <TonyP> OK with me
19:46:39 <jimc> Would it be good to quickly revie w the upcoming due dates>
19:46:46 <godbyk> If you have any questions during the week, feel free to ping us here in the IRC channel or on the mailing list.
19:46:49 <carsten> When starts translation the manual?
19:46:52 <godbyk> jimc: Sure.
19:46:54 <hannie> Thanks all for the work you do for our manual
19:46:59 <godbyk> Upcoming milestones:
19:46:59 <godbyk> June 15 � Editors have edited and proofread content.
19:46:59 <godbyk> June 22 � Release a draft for public comment and proofreading for one week.  Incorporate changes as they are suggested.
19:46:59 <godbyk> June 27 � Final draft is complete and all last-minute changes have been made.
19:47:00 <godbyk> June 30 � The final PDF is released on our website and printed copies can be purchased via lulu.com.
19:47:18 <godbyk> carsten: The translations won't start until after we've published the final PDF.
19:47:23 <carsten> ok
19:47:35 <godbyk> carsten: We have to wait until all the .tex files are finalized before we can upload the translation template file.
19:47:56 <jimc> When should final indexing/glossary begin/end?
19:48:12 <godbyk> hannie: We may use that June 15�22 week to update the screenshots, index, and glossary. We'll have to see how things go.
19:48:20 <jimc> OK
19:48:25 <hannie> godbyk, again a good idea
19:49:02 <PaddyLandau> I have to go now. Have a good night or day wherever you are in the world :)
19:49:08 <godbyk> G'night, PaddyLandau.
19:49:16 <hannie> thanks for coming PaddyLandau see you
19:49:22 <kereltis> cya PaddyLandau
19:49:23 <carsten> bye Paddy
19:49:28 <godbyk> If there are no other questions or issues, I'll wrap this up.
19:49:32 <jimc> Cheers, PaddyLandau
19:49:34 <godbyk> #endmeeting