== Meeting information ==
 * #xubuntu-devel Meeting, 19 Mar at 21:00 — 21:59 UTC
 * Full logs at [[http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2020/xubuntu-devel.2020-03-19-21.00.log.html]]



== Meeting summary ==

=== Open action items ===
The discussion about "Open action items" started at 21:02.


=== Updates and Announcements ===
The discussion about "Updates and Announcements" started at 21:04.

  * Most of the Xfce 4.14 updates are ready and in focal
  * Wallpaper contest is now closed and we're all supposed to vote!
  * Feature Freeze is past us.
  * User Interface Freeze is today.
  * jphilips has breathed new life into our social media

=== Discussion items ===
The discussion about "Discussion items" started at 21:08.

 * '''UI and UX tweaks''' (21:08)
  * ''LINK:'' https://i.imgur.com/wjSFbVE.png 
  * ''ACTION:'' bluesabre and jphilips to send follow-up email/vote to the list.

=== Any other business? ===
The discussion about "Any other business?" started at 21:55.

  * Be sure to add bugs we want fixed to https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-f-bugs
  * bluesabre to schedule next meeting



== Vote results ==




== Action items, by person ==

 * bluesabre
  * bluesabre and jphilips to send follow-up email/vote to the list.
 * jphilips
  * bluesabre and jphilips to send follow-up email/vote to the list.



== Done items ==

 * (none)



== People present (lines said) ==

 * bluesabre (48)
 * Unit193 (40)
 * jphilips (35)
 * pleia2 (10)
 * meetingology (4)
 * ubottu (1)



== Full Log ==


 21:00 <Unit193> #startmeeting

 21:00 <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Mar 19 21:00:01 2020 UTC.  The chair is Unit193. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.

 21:00 <meetingology> 

 21:00 <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick

 21:00 <Unit193> !team | Everyone here?

 21:00 <ubottu> Everyone here?: akxwi-dave, bluesabre, knome, krytarik, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster and Unit193

 21:00 <bluesabre> o/

 21:00 <jphilips> \o

 21:01 <bluesabre> Working from home makes the commute significantly faster

 21:01 <Unit193> Hah, that it does.  Also the attire?

 21:01 <jphilips> heard on a podcast the people should have a pajamas for sleeping and pajamas for work

 21:02 <jphilips> that* people

 21:02 <bluesabre> Business casual for zoom calls, Sean casual otherwise

 21:02 <Unit193> We can't vote on anything if more don't show up.

 21:02 <pleia2> o/

 21:02 <Unit193> \o/

 21:02 <Unit193> #topic Open action items

 21:03 <Unit193> I don't see any open action items from the last meeting, just a couple links.

 21:04 <Unit193> #topic Updates and Announcements

 21:04 <Unit193> #info Most of the Xfce 4.14 updates are ready and in focal

 21:04 <Unit193> #info Wallpaper contest is now closed and we're all supposed to vote!

 21:04 <Unit193> bluesabre?

 21:04 <bluesabre> #info Feature Freeze is past us.

 21:05 <bluesabre> #info User Interface Freeze is today.

 21:05 <bluesabre> #info jphilips has breathed new life into our social media

 21:06 <bluesabre> That might be all that I'm currently aware of.

 21:06 <bluesabre> Kinda coming off of a long been-too-busy-at-work-to-contribute hiatus

 21:08 <Unit193> #topic Discussion items

 21:08 <Unit193> #subtopic UI and UX tweaks

 21:08 <Unit193> jphilips: You have the floor.

 21:09 <jphilips> i've submitted user interface and user experience tweaks suggestions that i believe will improve the experience for users

 21:09 <jphilips> they range from improvements to the desktop, panel, whisker menu, thunar, and keyboard shortcuts

 21:10 <jphilips> should we go one by one through them?

 21:11 <jphilips> or should members vote/comment in the google doc?

 21:11 <jphilips> the link is here - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hzvQURi8l--GrfqsxP9c0tWNUzrkbZjZTiVxGUegALg/edit#

 21:12 <bluesabre> Good question.

 21:12 <Unit193> I'm not too sure about removing the 'removable devices' from the desktop, those are also any flash drives on might plug in, etc.

 21:13 <jphilips> a number of people have complained about the rpool and the likes also showing up on the desktop

 21:13 <bluesabre> Yeah, but that's more of an issue with Xfce/GVFS support of zfs

 21:13 <jphilips> users have easy access to all of these items in thunar and if they don't like the default they can enable the option

 21:15 <jphilips> also mentioned in my reasoning is that there is no means to only show flash drives and not internal partitions and it not showing network shares, which means the functionality isnt functioning as it should

 21:16 <jphilips> having a clean desktop is good UX, which users can then fill up with what they wish to see on their desktop

 21:17 <Unit193> bluesabre: Anything else popping out at you?

 21:17 <pleia2> I haven't used the defaults in a long time, what exactly happens now when you plug in a usb stick by default? aside from showing up on the desktop

 21:18 <bluesabre> Unit193: I've been adding a variety of comments to the Google doc itself

 21:18 <jphilips> pleia2: the default behaviour is that thunar opens up when you plugin a usb

 21:19 <jphilips> unless you disable it in 'removable drives and media'

 21:19 <pleia2> gotcha, that seems sufficient

 21:22 <bluesabre> I'm not sure about the 24px panel icons

 21:22 <bluesabre> They feel obnoxiously large :D

 21:22 <pleia2> hehe

 21:23 <jphilips> well dont open the whisker menu :D

 21:23 <bluesabre> I mean, they're larger than the window controls that they are always hovering on top of

 21:24 <jphilips> could you clarify with a screenshot

 21:26 <bluesabre> https://i.imgur.com/wjSFbVE.png

 21:26 <Unit193> Desktop changes seem fine enough, though as noted above.  In the panel section changing the sorting order seems fine as that's also what I happen to use, adding the new favorites to whisker also seems fine.  Not fond of some of the other changes though.

 21:26 <jphilips> i have the panel at the bottom, so never see that :D

 21:27 <Unit193> Switching by hovering makes sense.

 21:27 <bluesabre> ftr, 24px is also the same size as large toolbar which is a primary application element, https://valadoc.org/gtk+-3.0/Gtk.IconSize.LARGE_TOOLBAR.html

 21:27 <bluesabre> Xubuntu has the panel at the top ;)

 21:29 <bluesabre> jphilips: what size is your laptop screen?

 21:29 <jphilips> well if you think the window toolbar needs to be bigger as the panel is larger, we should speak with ochosi to update the theme.

 21:29 <jphilips> 1366x768

 21:29 <bluesabre> I mean, physical size?

 21:30 <bluesabre> All your icon size suggestions seem very large to me (24in, 1080p desktop) and (17in 1080 laptop)

 21:30 <jphilips> not sure, let me check

 21:31 <bluesabre> That's my one real hangup, most of the other changes in that doc seem agreeable.

 21:32 <Unit193> I note the keyboard shortcuts seem to mirror Windows, I don't think I object to the specifc changes but I do not want to become yet another windows clone.

 21:32 <Unit193> C-A-D I'm not the most fond of, but eh.

 21:33 <jphilips> screen is 14"

 21:34 <jphilips> you can see the shortcut research here - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CPvYS7Vb00nImb5cru6pwcMHFov0vmdzJV9dTBUOuYg/edit#

 21:34 <jphilips> most of them have already been upstreamed

 21:35 <jphilips> C-A-D is the third shortcut we have for session lock, including Ctrl + Alt + L and Super + L

 21:37 <bluesabre> Yeah, just 14 long years of Xubuntu C-A-D muscle memory there :D

 21:38 <bluesabre> +Xfce

 21:38 <Unit193> Heh, I didn't like it at first even, but got so very used to it.

 21:38 <bluesabre> But yeah, I don't mind the shortcut changes

 21:38 <Unit193> bluesabre: Simon really wanted symbolic links, yeah?

 21:38 <bluesabre> symbolic icons?

 21:38 <Unit193> Err, right.  That.

 21:38 <bluesabre> Definitely. Makes the theme work with light/dark themes/panels with zero work required.

 21:38 <jphilips> well this is your quote bluesabre: "Ctrl + Alt + Delete: I agree that this should probably be replaced with the logout dialog. After having used somebody else's non-Xfce computer recently, it was a shock when this shortcut launched a logout dialog instead of locking. If there's already a standard, it would be best to align."

 21:39 <bluesabre> jphilips: yep, not fighting that one

 21:39 <jphilips> :D

 21:40 <jphilips> is it not possible to have symbolic icons that are larger than 16px

 21:41 <bluesabre> So yeah, everything except icon size/symbolic changes and moving the Setting Manager is +1 from me

 21:41 <pleia2> I'm inclined to agree

 21:42 <jphilips> bluesabre: to clarify, you dont want to change the panel height from 24px

 21:43 <bluesabre> Well, for panel size I've always been in favor of a 28px panel

 21:43 <bluesabre> But that one the team has never agreed on ;)

 21:44 <Unit193> We're somehow going to need to get input from the rest of the team.

 21:44 <pleia2> I always change it anyway based on the size of my screen (which vary widely across my devices)

 21:46 <jphilips> i put out the suggestion previously on the mailing list but only one person responded - https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2019-July/011825.html

 21:47 <bluesabre> We're a pretty inactive team in general.

 21:47 <pleia2> yeah, sorry :)

 21:47 <pleia2> (and the xubuntu team baby boom certainly hasn't helped matters)

 21:47 <jphilips> i ran a poll and 57% of respondents wanted it to be 28 or higher - https://twitter.com/jphilipz/status/1149373399770312705

 21:48 <bluesabre> I'd probably send a team vote to the ML grouping the proposals how you have them, with one additional grouping that contains the panel and icon sizes.

 21:49 <Unit193> We also all seem to dislike email. :P

 21:49 <bluesabre> Yeah

 21:49 <pleia2> this won't land in 20.04 anyway, so we have a lot of time to decide

 21:50 <bluesabre> Yeah, and there's probably going to be a team reorg for 20.10 (couple inactive members to remove, hopefully a few to add)

 21:50 <bluesabre> council expires, etc

 21:51 <bluesabre> But yeah, I can work with jphilips to draft the team votes

 21:51 <Unit193> bluesabre: You want to send the email?

 21:51 <Unit193> Heh.

 21:51 <bluesabre> ;)

 21:52 <Unit193> #action bluesabre and jphilips to send follow-up email/vote to the list.

 21:52 * meetingology bluesabre and jphilips to send follow-up email/vote to the list.

 21:52 <Unit193> jphilips: The other topic, Addition of new shortcut keys, seems like part of this discussion we just had?

 21:53 <jphilips> yes i added all the keyboard shortcuts suggestions in the same doc for easy access to exactly what was to be changed

 21:53 <jphilips> as things had changed since i first sent the email to the mailing list last year

 21:54 <Unit193> And seems you already filed a bug report with "Resolve problem with Super + D shortcut key" too?

 21:54 <jphilips> bug was filed but not sure how to move it forward as its broken since 19.10

 21:55 <bluesabre> Interestingly, re-setting the Super+D shortcut in the Window Manager settings makes it work

 21:55 <bluesabre> I'll dig into that.

 21:55 <Unit193> OK.

 21:55 <Unit193> #topic Any other business?

 21:56 <Unit193> bluesabre: We do need to get council selection going now I guess.

 21:56 <jphilips> trying to organize a flavors bug hunting session for the beta ISO release

 21:56 <bluesabre> #info Be sure to add bugs we want fixed to https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-f-bugs

 21:56 <bluesabre> Unit193: Indeed... and that sounds like a lot of work :D

 21:57 <Unit193> We've got everything except for newer xfce4-session.

 21:57 <bluesabre> jphilips: thanks for that. Let me know if you need help tracking down flavor heads

 21:57 <Unit193> bluesabre: Yes, and seemingly lack of people interested.

 21:57 <bluesabre> >.>

 21:58 <bluesabre> Gotta grow the team

 21:58 <Unit193> Anything else?

 21:58 <jphilips> bluesabre: i'm in the flavors channel and have touch basis with the kubuntu, lubuntu and budgie people

 21:58 <Unit193> pleia2: Nothing from you?

 21:58 <bluesabre> Unit193: nothing from me

 21:58 <pleia2> nope

 21:58 <bluesabre> jphilips: yeah, that's where we find them... popey and Wimpress are in there too, which helps

 21:58 <Unit193> Well looks like slick is supposed to schedule the next meeting, buut..

 21:59 <bluesabre> Yeahhhh

 21:59 <bluesabre> I'll do it

 21:59 <Unit193> #info bluesabre to schedule next meeting

 21:59 <Unit193> #endmeeting



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