21:00 <Unit193> #startmeeting
21:00 <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Mar 19 21:00:01 2020 UTC.  The chair is Unit193. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
21:00 <meetingology> 
21:00 <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
21:00 <Unit193> !team | Everyone here?
21:00 <ubottu> Everyone here?: akxwi-dave, bluesabre, knome, krytarik, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster and Unit193
21:00 <bluesabre> o/
21:00 <jphilips> \o
21:01 <bluesabre> Working from home makes the commute significantly faster
21:01 <Unit193> Hah, that it does.  Also the attire?
21:01 <jphilips> heard on a podcast the people should have a pajamas for sleeping and pajamas for work
21:02 <jphilips> that* people
21:02 <bluesabre> Business casual for zoom calls, Sean casual otherwise
21:02 <Unit193> We can't vote on anything if more don't show up.
21:02 <pleia2> o/
21:02 <Unit193> \o/
21:02 <Unit193> #topic Open action items
21:03 <Unit193> I don't see any open action items from the last meeting, just a couple links.
21:04 <Unit193> #topic Updates and Announcements
21:04 <Unit193> #info Most of the Xfce 4.14 updates are ready and in focal
21:04 <Unit193> #info Wallpaper contest is now closed and we're all supposed to vote!
21:04 <Unit193> bluesabre?
21:04 <bluesabre> #info Feature Freeze is past us.
21:05 <bluesabre> #info User Interface Freeze is today.
21:05 <bluesabre> #info jphilips has breathed new life into our social media
21:06 <bluesabre> That might be all that I'm currently aware of.
21:06 <bluesabre> Kinda coming off of a long been-too-busy-at-work-to-contribute hiatus
21:08 <Unit193> #topic Discussion items
21:08 <Unit193> #subtopic UI and UX tweaks
21:08 <Unit193> jphilips: You have the floor.
21:09 <jphilips> i've submitted user interface and user experience tweaks suggestions that i believe will improve the experience for users
21:09 <jphilips> they range from improvements to the desktop, panel, whisker menu, thunar, and keyboard shortcuts
21:10 <jphilips> should we go one by one through them?
21:11 <jphilips> or should members vote/comment in the google doc?
21:11 <jphilips> the link is here - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hzvQURi8l--GrfqsxP9c0tWNUzrkbZjZTiVxGUegALg/edit#
21:12 <bluesabre> Good question.
21:12 <Unit193> I'm not too sure about removing the 'removable devices' from the desktop, those are also any flash drives on might plug in, etc.
21:13 <jphilips> a number of people have complained about the rpool and the likes also showing up on the desktop
21:13 <bluesabre> Yeah, but that's more of an issue with Xfce/GVFS support of zfs
21:13 <jphilips> users have easy access to all of these items in thunar and if they don't like the default they can enable the option
21:15 <jphilips> also mentioned in my reasoning is that there is no means to only show flash drives and not internal partitions and it not showing network shares, which means the functionality isnt functioning as it should
21:16 <jphilips> having a clean desktop is good UX, which users can then fill up with what they wish to see on their desktop
21:17 <Unit193> bluesabre: Anything else popping out at you?
21:17 <pleia2> I haven't used the defaults in a long time, what exactly happens now when you plug in a usb stick by default? aside from showing up on the desktop
21:18 <bluesabre> Unit193: I've been adding a variety of comments to the Google doc itself
21:18 <jphilips> pleia2: the default behaviour is that thunar opens up when you plugin a usb
21:19 <jphilips> unless you disable it in 'removable drives and media'
21:19 <pleia2> gotcha, that seems sufficient
21:22 <bluesabre> I'm not sure about the 24px panel icons
21:22 <bluesabre> They feel obnoxiously large :D
21:22 <pleia2> hehe
21:23 <jphilips> well dont open the whisker menu :D
21:23 <bluesabre> I mean, they're larger than the window controls that they are always hovering on top of
21:24 <jphilips> could you clarify with a screenshot
21:26 <bluesabre> https://i.imgur.com/wjSFbVE.png
21:26 <Unit193> Desktop changes seem fine enough, though as noted above.  In the panel section changing the sorting order seems fine as that's also what I happen to use, adding the new favorites to whisker also seems fine.  Not fond of some of the other changes though.
21:26 <jphilips> i have the panel at the bottom, so never see that :D
21:27 <Unit193> Switching by hovering makes sense.
21:27 <bluesabre> ftr, 24px is also the same size as large toolbar which is a primary application element, https://valadoc.org/gtk+-3.0/Gtk.IconSize.LARGE_TOOLBAR.html
21:27 <bluesabre> Xubuntu has the panel at the top ;)
21:29 <bluesabre> jphilips: what size is your laptop screen?
21:29 <jphilips> well if you think the window toolbar needs to be bigger as the panel is larger, we should speak with ochosi to update the theme.
21:29 <jphilips> 1366x768
21:29 <bluesabre> I mean, physical size?
21:30 <bluesabre> All your icon size suggestions seem very large to me (24in, 1080p desktop) and (17in 1080 laptop)
21:30 <jphilips> not sure, let me check
21:31 <bluesabre> That's my one real hangup, most of the other changes in that doc seem agreeable.
21:32 <Unit193> I note the keyboard shortcuts seem to mirror Windows, I don't think I object to the specifc changes but I do not want to become yet another windows clone.
21:32 <Unit193> C-A-D I'm not the most fond of, but eh.
21:33 <jphilips> screen is 14"
21:34 <jphilips> you can see the shortcut research here - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CPvYS7Vb00nImb5cru6pwcMHFov0vmdzJV9dTBUOuYg/edit#
21:34 <jphilips> most of them have already been upstreamed
21:35 <jphilips> C-A-D is the third shortcut we have for session lock, including Ctrl + Alt + L and Super + L
21:37 <bluesabre> Yeah, just 14 long years of Xubuntu C-A-D muscle memory there :D
21:38 <bluesabre> +Xfce
21:38 <Unit193> Heh, I didn't like it at first even, but got so very used to it.
21:38 <bluesabre> But yeah, I don't mind the shortcut changes
21:38 <Unit193> bluesabre: Simon really wanted symbolic links, yeah?
21:38 <bluesabre> symbolic icons?
21:38 <Unit193> Err, right.  That.
21:38 <bluesabre> Definitely. Makes the theme work with light/dark themes/panels with zero work required.
21:38 <jphilips> well this is your quote bluesabre: "Ctrl + Alt + Delete: I agree that this should probably be replaced with the logout dialog. After having used somebody else's non-Xfce computer recently, it was a shock when this shortcut launched a logout dialog instead of locking. If there's already a standard, it would be best to align."
21:39 <bluesabre> jphilips: yep, not fighting that one
21:39 <jphilips> :D
21:40 <jphilips> is it not possible to have symbolic icons that are larger than 16px
21:41 <bluesabre> So yeah, everything except icon size/symbolic changes and moving the Setting Manager is +1 from me
21:41 <pleia2> I'm inclined to agree
21:42 <jphilips> bluesabre: to clarify, you dont want to change the panel height from 24px
21:43 <bluesabre> Well, for panel size I've always been in favor of a 28px panel
21:43 <bluesabre> But that one the team has never agreed on ;)
21:44 <Unit193> We're somehow going to need to get input from the rest of the team.
21:44 <pleia2> I always change it anyway based on the size of my screen (which vary widely across my devices)
21:46 <jphilips> i put out the suggestion previously on the mailing list but only one person responded - https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2019-July/011825.html
21:47 <bluesabre> We're a pretty inactive team in general.
21:47 <pleia2> yeah, sorry :)
21:47 <pleia2> (and the xubuntu team baby boom certainly hasn't helped matters)
21:47 <jphilips> i ran a poll and 57% of respondents wanted it to be 28 or higher - https://twitter.com/jphilipz/status/1149373399770312705
21:48 <bluesabre> I'd probably send a team vote to the ML grouping the proposals how you have them, with one additional grouping that contains the panel and icon sizes.
21:49 <Unit193> We also all seem to dislike email. :P
21:49 <bluesabre> Yeah
21:49 <pleia2> this won't land in 20.04 anyway, so we have a lot of time to decide
21:50 <bluesabre> Yeah, and there's probably going to be a team reorg for 20.10 (couple inactive members to remove, hopefully a few to add)
21:50 <bluesabre> council expires, etc
21:51 <bluesabre> But yeah, I can work with jphilips to draft the team votes
21:51 <Unit193> bluesabre: You want to send the email?
21:51 <Unit193> Heh.
21:51 <bluesabre> ;)
21:52 <Unit193> #action bluesabre and jphilips to send follow-up email/vote to the list.
21:52 * meetingology bluesabre and jphilips to send follow-up email/vote to the list.
21:52 <Unit193> jphilips: The other topic, Addition of new shortcut keys, seems like part of this discussion we just had?
21:53 <jphilips> yes i added all the keyboard shortcuts suggestions in the same doc for easy access to exactly what was to be changed
21:53 <jphilips> as things had changed since i first sent the email to the mailing list last year
21:54 <Unit193> And seems you already filed a bug report with "Resolve problem with Super + D shortcut key" too?
21:54 <jphilips> bug was filed but not sure how to move it forward as its broken since 19.10
21:55 <bluesabre> Interestingly, re-setting the Super+D shortcut in the Window Manager settings makes it work
21:55 <bluesabre> I'll dig into that.
21:55 <Unit193> OK.
21:55 <Unit193> #topic Any other business?
21:56 <Unit193> bluesabre: We do need to get council selection going now I guess.
21:56 <jphilips> trying to organize a flavors bug hunting session for the beta ISO release
21:56 <bluesabre> #info Be sure to add bugs we want fixed to https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-f-bugs
21:56 <bluesabre> Unit193: Indeed... and that sounds like a lot of work :D
21:57 <Unit193> We've got everything except for newer xfce4-session.
21:57 <bluesabre> jphilips: thanks for that. Let me know if you need help tracking down flavor heads
21:57 <Unit193> bluesabre: Yes, and seemingly lack of people interested.
21:57 <bluesabre> >.>
21:58 <bluesabre> Gotta grow the team
21:58 <Unit193> Anything else?
21:58 <jphilips> bluesabre: i'm in the flavors channel and have touch basis with the kubuntu, lubuntu and budgie people
21:58 <Unit193> pleia2: Nothing from you?
21:58 <bluesabre> Unit193: nothing from me
21:58 <pleia2> nope
21:58 <bluesabre> jphilips: yeah, that's where we find them... popey and Wimpress are in there too, which helps
21:58 <Unit193> Well looks like slick is supposed to schedule the next meeting, buut..
21:59 <bluesabre> Yeahhhh
21:59 <bluesabre> I'll do it
21:59 <Unit193> #info bluesabre to schedule next meeting
21:59 <Unit193> #endmeeting