== Meeting information == * #xubuntu-devel Meeting, 23 Nov at 22:01 — 23:51 UTC * Full logs at [[http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2018/xubuntu-devel.2018-11-23-22.01.log.html]] == Meeting summary == ''LINK:'' https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings === Open action items === The discussion about "Open action items" started at 22:04. === Updates/Announcements === The discussion about "Updates/Announcements" started at 22:04. * xfce4-screensaver 0.1.3 released, https://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce-announce/2018-November/000651.html, more on this later * new development release of xfce-panel coming up soon, quite a few fixes since the previous version already * "primary display" support added to xfdesktop (which pretty much completes the feature in xfce) https://simon.shimmerproject.org/2018/11/12/adventures-in-primary-display-land/ === Discussions === The discussion about "Discussions" started at 22:10. * '''32 Bit''' (22:11) * ''ACTION:'' flocculant to mail list for Team vote on 32 bit * '''Minimal Install for Core-like experience''' (22:16) * ''ACTION:'' bluesabre to mail the list to vote on minimal install ubiquity option * '''Orage''' (22:26) * ''Vote:'' Remove Orage from seed (Carried) * ''ACTION:'' flocculant to note to ml * '''Add Apturl to seed''' (22:43) * ''LINK:'' https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AptURL for folks reading along * ''ACTION:'' flocculant to mail list re adding Apturl to seed * '''Adding GIMP to seed''' (22:49) * ''Vote:'' Add Gimp to seed (Carried) * '''Add Libreoffice Impress to seed''' (22:52) * ''Vote:'' Add LibreOffice Impress to seed (Carried) * '''Status update on GNOME Software / alternatives?''' (23:07) * '''Replacing Light Locker with Xfce Screensaver''' (23:15) * '''Applying Xubuntu defaults to commonly used apps (Plank, others)''' (23:25) * ''ACTION:'' flocculant to mail list re applying Xubuntu defaults to various apps * '''Developing "Xubuntu Tweak"''' (23:40) * ''LINK:'' https://git.xfce.org/archive/xfce4-profile-manager/ * ''ACTION:'' knome to look at making some inroads in to helping users with tweaks - via whatever media he chooses === AOB === The discussion about "AOB" started at 23:49. === Schedule next meeting === The discussion about "Schedule next meeting" started at 23:51. == Vote results == * [[http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2018/xubuntu-devel.2018-11-23-22.01.log.html#254 Add Gimp to seed]] * Motion carried (For/Against/Abstained 4/0/0) * Voters pleia2, bluesabre, flocculant, ochosi * [[http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2018/xubuntu-devel.2018-11-23-22.01.log.html#194 Remove Orage from seed]] * Motion carried (For/Against/Abstained 4/0/0) * Voters pleia2, bluesabre, flocculant, ochosi * [[http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2018/xubuntu-devel.2018-11-23-22.01.log.html#453 Replace LightLocker with Xfce Screensaver]] * Motion carried (For/Against/Abstained 4/0/1) * Voters pleia2, ochosi, bluesabre, flocculant, knome * [[http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2018/xubuntu-devel.2018-11-23-22.01.log.html#340 Add LibreOffice Impress to seed]] * Motion carried (For/Against/Abstained 4/0/1) * Voters knome, ochosi, bluesabre, flocculant, pleia2 == Action items, by person == * bluesabre * bluesabre to mail the list to vote on minimal install ubiquity option * flocculant * flocculant to mail list for Team vote on 32 bit * flocculant to note to ml * flocculant to mail list re adding Apturl to seed * flocculant to mail list re applying Xubuntu defaults to various apps * knome * knome to look at making some inroads in to helping users with tweaks - via whatever media he chooses == Done items == * (none) == People present (lines said) == * flocculant (204) * ochosi (135) * bluesabre (132) * knome (70) * meetingology (54) * pleia2 (27) * brainwash (19) * xubuntu-team (0) == Full Log == 22:01 #startmeeting 22:01 Meeting started Fri Nov 23 22:01:07 2018 UTC. The chair is flocculant. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. 22:01 22:01 Available commands: action commands idea info link nick 22:01 :) 22:01 windered where the bot got to :D 22:01 that was my contribution, good to go now 22:01 :D 22:01 * flocculant ponders things to see if anyone else shows up 22:02 do we have a clear agenda? 22:02 yea 22:02 it's about 10 yards long 22:02 kewl, sry, i'm lagging a bit behind 22:03 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings 22:03 trying to fix a few xfce panel bugs meanwhile 22:03 k 22:03 no open action items i guess 22:03 regarding updates and announcements, only from upstream from my side 22:03 okey doke - so 22:04 #topic Open action items 22:04 all done 22:04 #topic Updates/Announcements 22:04 ochosi has none 22:04 neither do I 22:04 bluesabre ? 22:04 well depends, if you're interested in upstream xfce updates i can mention some stuff 22:05 and i guess bluesabre wants to mention his recent screensaver release 22:05 I'd guess so 22:05 Sure 22:06 #info xfce4-screensaver 0.1.3 released, https://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce-announce/2018-November/000651.html, more on this later 22:06 saw that one - where is it :p 22:06 Somewhere 22:06 :D 22:06 Not packaged yet, I think 22:06 ack 22:07 #info new development release of xfce-panel coming up soon, quite a few fixes since the previous version already 22:07 But it's a good one ;) 22:07 re these updates - we only have 1 up to date dev ppa - will verything get there? 22:07 #info "primary display" support added to xfdesktop (which pretty much completes the feature in xfce) https://simon.shimmerproject.org/2018/11/12/adventures-in-primary-display-land/ 22:08 flocculant: yup :) 22:09 anything else? 22:09 nothing from me 22:09 my life has been a screensaver for the last several weeks 22:09 mine has been for 13 years ... 22:09 * bluesabre waggles the mouse 22:10 anyway - let's move swiftly along then :) 22:10 that's it from me too 22:10 #topic Discussions 22:11 #subtopic £" bit 22:11 sigh 22:11 #undo 22:11 Removing item from minutes: SUBTOPIC 22:11 :) 22:11 #subtopic 32 Bit 22:12 so - given than we've now got no upgrades from 32 bit of any real use - I propose we finally kill this off 22:12 related, https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=LibreOffice-6.2-Beta-1 LibreOffice 6.2 deprecates 32-bit builds 22:12 and that won't help 22:13 nope 22:13 I think we should do a mailing list team vote on this one 22:13 I agree. 22:14 ochosi: ? 22:14 yeah 22:14 agreed 22:15 (both, the killing off and the ML) 22:15 if the ML yields no relevant/clear results, we can take it to the council to decide 22:15 #action flocculant to mail list for Team vote on 32 bit 22:15 * meetingology flocculant to mail list for Team vote on 32 bit 22:16 #subtopic Minimal Install for Core-like experience 22:16 * flocculant lets bluesabre have a warble 22:17 So, with the addition of the minimal install option on the ISO, there's more resistance than ever to approve and merge our patches to make Xubuntu Core official... 22:18 :/ 22:18 ... and there's basically a single person that is the gatekeeper of that now, so meh 22:18 this has been going on for far too long anyway 22:18 Yup 22:18 right 22:18 So I propose, we go the alternative route and add the minimal install option that the other flavors and main have opted for 22:19 Same disk image, but with the option to install a subset of the packages 22:19 yea - from memory it's not quite the same - just a bunch of blacklisting? 22:19 (technically it installs all the packages, then removes, but whatever) 22:20 urgh 22:20 mmm 22:20 so it really misses the point of a minimal install from my pov 22:20 ochosi: I'd agree 22:20 that's like passing an apt-get remove shell-script when you first start your session 22:20 Yup 22:21 if the iso isn't smaller and the diskspace needed to complete the installation successfully, what's the point? 22:21 (a nor is missing there) 22:22 so while i usually agree with you, i'm not sure this helps people a lot bluesabre 22:22 Just starting out with fewer installed packages. The diskspace savings is probably not substantial enough that it would be a different disk or partition, so that's not really the concern. 22:22 well 22:22 Indeed. 22:22 for those people that want a minimal setup - the work's done for them? 22:23 Yeah 22:23 It's the core experience once the install's done 22:23 still feels misleading to call that minimal, but i guess if people are used to this from the other flavors... 22:23 And it means 1 or 2 ISOs to test instead of 2 or 4 22:23 not getting drawn into that one ... 22:24 :D 22:24 anyway - given there are just us - mailing list? 22:24 So yeah, probably another thing to send off for vote. 22:24 yeah, probably 22:24 although the benefit needs to be clarified from my pov 22:24 yea 22:24 we get potentially more stuff to test 22:25 #chair bluesabre 22:25 Current chairs: bluesabre flocculant 22:25 * bluesabre sits 22:25 so you can do stuff 22:25 and users get a minimal setup, but only after providing enough diskspace 22:25 #chair ochosi 22:25 Current chairs: bluesabre flocculant ochosi 22:25 * ochosi bows 22:25 cos how can ignore ochosi :) 22:25 who even 22:25 #action bluesabre to mail the list to vote on minimal install ubiquity option 22:25 * meetingology bluesabre to mail the list to vote on minimal install ubiquity option 22:26 #subtopic Orage 22:26 there's been some talk in channel about this 22:26 Anything beyond "I don't use that"? 22:26 with some people not even sure we seeded it still :p 22:27 hehe 22:27 well i'm all for dropping it 22:27 I love orage 22:27 ^^ was ochosi I think :) 22:27 rly? 22:27 how else would I get 4 timezones in my panel? 22:27 pleia2: well it's good to hear ppl disagreeing, because i have a very clear opinion on it... 22:27 ochosi: I thought so ? 22:28 anyway 22:28 pleia2: wait, that's it..? the regular panel clock plugin can do that too... 22:28 the regular clock app has gotten better, I guess 22:28 I'm not all that worried either way - but if there are dev reasons to drop it 22:28 i thought you were using the ical stuff 22:28 didn't use to allow you to do some of the custom things, but now that it does maybe I'll give it a chance and report back ;) 22:29 the ical support (with an incredibly crappy UI) and the unmaintained codebase is all orage has over the regular clock plugin 22:29 the clock plugin even has a format validator now ;) 22:29 anyway, if you find a feature (apart from ical) that is in orage but not the clock lemme know 22:29 actually, clock seems to do what I need now :) 22:30 carry on! 22:30 :) 22:30 :) 22:30 we should warn people though (release notes?) in case they're in my boat 22:30 so i'd like to propose to drop orage from our default install 22:30 we can keep it in the repos as a package, but just not install it by default 22:30 sgtm 22:30 pleia2: if they have it installed and upgrade it'll be retained anyway 22:30 yeah 22:30 so not sure what to warn people about 22:31 apart from "Warning: The regular clock plugin can do anything you did with orage before!" 22:31 lol 22:31 when I do a new install I automatically was using orage 22:31 would it not just be in the release notes - this 'package' not there anymore 22:31 ? 22:31 (yes) 22:31 yup 22:31 ochosi: that's fine :) 22:32 so if people used it - they'd read the notes (of course) then install it 22:32 yup 22:32 yeah 22:32 * flocculant wasn't at all sarcastic 22:32 :P 22:32 thing is, i'd rather not ship stuff by default that is unmaintained 22:32 yeah 22:32 (last release 4yrs ago) 22:32 agreed 22:32 and we're almost quorum 22:32 sigh 22:33 plus, it's one of the few remaining gtk2 plugins in xfce 22:33 Suppose I could address that 22:33 but isn't Orage a calendar application? 22:34 brainwash: yes, but a rather bad one 22:35 so, maybe there is a need for a replacement 22:35 partly because it uses the (unmaintained) gtkcalendar widget that really doesn't work well for calendars 22:36 doesn't thunderbird partly do that? 22:37 it could be that an offline calendar is not needed anymore 22:37 (doesn't use desktop calendars or mail clients in ages) 22:37 We can take it to vote, and if we drop, it can be restored based on user feedback 22:37 yeah 22:37 shall we perhaps do a quick vote on this now - and then push that to ml for people to ignore? 22:37 bluesabre: right 22:37 thunderbird's lightning plugin is not installed by default, but reasonably could be 22:38 I used that once upon a time 22:38 it was painful - though it was some time ago 22:38 woot 22:38 oops 22:38 :D 22:38 so vote here now - or just ml it? 22:38 personally i'd only go for alternatives if ppl ask for it 22:38 maybe it's really not needed 22:38 yup 22:38 i'd vote here 22:39 #voters flocculant bluesabre ochosi pleia2 22:39 Current voters: bluesabre flocculant ochosi pleia2 22:40 #vote Remove Orage from seed 22:40 Please vote on: Remove Orage from seed 22:40 Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname) 22:40 +1 22:40 +1 received from bluesabre 22:40 +1 22:40 +1 received from flocculant 22:40 +1 22:40 +1 received from ochosi 22:41 pleia2: ? 22:42 +1 22:42 +1 received from pleia2 22:42 #endvote 22:42 Voting ended on: Remove Orage from seed 22:42 Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0 22:42 Motion carried 22:42 do we go with that then - or carry it over to ml 22:43 i'd inform ppl on the ML 22:43 we'll at least see if there is a big outcry that way 22:43 #action flocculant to note to ml 22:43 * meetingology flocculant to note to ml 22:43 #subtopic Add Apturl to seed 22:44 this is something I always wondered about 22:44 yeah, i'd say why not? 22:44 I think Unit193 had some reservations about it 22:44 Doesn't seem like it would hurt, and would generally improve user experience 22:44 mmh 22:45 * flocculant check the pad 22:46 wasn't there - maybe it was in channel. something about being out of sync with debian ? 22:46 p'raps 22:46 bluesabre: would that sound right? 22:47 It'd just be a part of our seed. I think Unit193 had some reservations, but wasn't specific. 22:47 mmm 22:47 https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AptURL for folks reading along 22:47 yeah, i read that a few mins ago 22:47 i felt it's unproblematic 22:48 Could be used in our docs too if we wanted 22:48 well - I'd like to get as many things dealt with tonight as possible, but if someone in team had reservations I think we should take it to ml 22:48 ? thoughts 22:48 Agreed 22:48 k 22:49 #action flocculant to mail list re adding Apturl to seed 22:49 * meetingology flocculant to mail list re adding Apturl to seed 22:49 #subtopic Adding GIMP to seed 22:49 from my pov - we took this out because space 22:49 yeah 22:49 we now have space - I'd just add it back 22:50 +1 22:50 We shipped GIMP in Xubuntu until Wily Werewolf due to space concerns 22:50 i always install gimp 22:50 it's one of the first things I install 22:50 Same 22:50 Probably the same for a lot of folks 22:50 It's pretty ubiquitous 22:50 so I would do vote as before and report to list 22:50 bluesabre: wow, you still remember when we removed it..? holy crap! 22:50 ochosi: had to research that recently 22:50 oh ok :) 22:50 I don't remember when - I do remember us doing it 22:50 * bluesabre has had a simmering rage since Wily 22:50 #vote Add Gimp to seed 22:50 Please vote on: Add Gimp to seed 22:50 Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname) 22:51 +1 22:51 +1 received from bluesabre 22:51 +1 22:51 +1 received from flocculant 22:51 +1 22:51 +1 received from pleia2 22:51 +1 22:51 +1 received from ochosi 22:52 #endvote 22:52 Voting ended on: Add Gimp to seed 22:52 Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0 22:52 Motion carried 22:52 #subtopic Add Libreoffice Impress to see 22:52 #undo 22:52 Removing item from minutes: SUBTOPIC 22:52 #subtopic Add Libreoffice Impress to seed 22:52 this was me 22:53 hm, i mean i install it too by default now, but only because i need it at work 22:53 at home i really never open impress 22:53 I always install that too 22:53 given that we no longer are quite so worried about seed size - I'd like to add this in with the other Libreoffice things we do - seems silly to not have it 22:53 but i can imagine many ppl need it 22:54 I have no complaints about including it, and folks have asked for it for years 22:54 flocculant: any clue how much space it adds approx? 22:54 ochosi: adding it to live session > https://pasteboard.co/HMojyQ9.png 22:54 right, that seems ok 22:54 I did that a while back when I added it to the pad 22:55 I got lost near Haytor in the fog 22:55 oops 22:55 :D 22:55 oh, you did? :D 22:55 hehe 22:55 or did you get lost in all your channel tabs..? 22:55 * flocculant spits tea at the screen - again 22:56 ochosi: :p 22:56 it seems to pull in libreoffice draw also 22:56 a wild knome suddenly appears [N/E/S/W]? 22:56 brainwash: yea 22:56 knome: oh wow, now we have to take all the votes again :'D 22:56 nah 22:56 we can really get things done now 22:56 as long as you make ML threads i can just disagree with you there ;) 22:56 is Draw needed? 22:57 not sure if adding it to the seed also installs all recommends 22:57 but apt does that by default now 22:57 (in ubuntu) 22:57 brainwash: not sure - didn't dig that far 22:57 meh draw 22:57 doesn't draw bring in all the (surprise) drawing stuff like vectors? 22:57 brainwash: yes, https://packages.ubuntu.com/cosmic/libreoffice-impress 22:58 I think because people embed draw things in impress slides 22:58 yes 22:59 "Design powerful and intuitive flowcharts with Draw." 22:59 looks useful 22:59 if everybody else ships draw with impress, wouldn't it potentially create one of those "but xubuntu is worse because even drawing stuff doesn't work!" -like sentiments 22:59 right 23:00 if we have space/motivation to bring in impress, bring in draw as well 23:00 yeah 23:00 * flocculant makes note not to add knome to voter list - because interminable talking :D 23:00 it's a package depend, impress brings it without question 23:00 #voters knome 23:00 Current voters: bluesabre flocculant knome ochosi pleia2 23:00 ;)= 23:00 brainwash: it's the visio counterpart 23:00 bluesabre, unless we blacklist it :P 23:00 does that work for depends? 23:00 but yes, i wasn't advocating for that anyway 23:01 i have no idea, let's not figure out? 23:01 fine 23:01 * bluesabre breaks something else 23:01 woohoo! 23:01 good chap 23:01 so, this would result in having the full libreoffice suite installed I'd think 23:01 no base? 23:02 the database thing 23:02 ohh 23:02 yeah, don't need that 23:02 :D 23:02 or is it pulled by something 23:02 yea - it doesn't add the database - just whats in the screenie 23:04 let's vote? 23:04 * bluesabre votes to vote 23:04 sure. 23:05 #vote Add LibreOffice Impress to seed 23:05 Please vote on: Add LibreOffice Impress to seed 23:05 Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname) 23:05 +1 23:05 +1 received from flocculant 23:05 +0 23:05 +0 received from knome 23:05 +1 23:05 +1 received from pleia2 23:05 +1 23:05 +1 received from bluesabre 23:05 +1 23:05 +1 received from ochosi 23:06 it's so great to have knome around for the voting 23:06 i know... 23:06 :D 23:06 even when he abstains :| 23:06 (meant to be :P) 23:06 better the devil you know 23:07 #endvote 23:07 Voting ended on: Add LibreOffice Impress to seed 23:07 Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1 23:07 Motion carried 23:07 uhm, gnome software, oh noes 23:07 #subtopic Status update on GNOME Software / alternatives? 23:07 so 23:07 so 23:07 I hate this still 23:07 i think gnome software isn't great, but the alternatives also aren't 23:07 and still refuse to use it :p 23:07 synaptic is still unmaintained 23:07 synaptic works fine - it's just not pretty - and I don't buy stuff 23:07 and unchanged 23:08 but it's still around 23:08 better maintained than before I believe 23:08 knome: orage is also still around :p 23:08 but synaptic works, right? :P 23:08 it does 23:08 yep 23:08 and sometimes gnome-software does not 23:08 gnome-software has snaps and firmware updates 23:08 that's pretty nice 23:08 it does have that going for it 23:08 I did look for the mate one - but I think that's now a snap 23:09 i really really don't like gnome-software (that's to say, i don't hate it either, but i don't like it), but i don't use even synaptic any more, so... 23:09 bluesabre: and it uses appdata, another plus 23:09 had to patch for that recently, after folks removed exo and killed their xfce 23:10 I don't think we're going to get very far with this discussion 23:10 again 23:10 indeed 23:10 personally, my main concern with gnome-software is that it keeps running in the background after "closing" it 23:10 yeah 23:10 it's one of those things... there's no great options, so the status quo just persists 23:10 that's one thing i also dislike 23:10 brainwash: right 23:10 which is a bit over 100MB 23:11 when i last used it, it was sluggish when ran too :/ 23:11 i remember before gnome software we were unhappy with ubuntu-software 23:11 one I didn't like was it leaving things behind - but I think that's been SRU'd now 23:11 so "yay" 23:11 ochosi, indeed 23:11 i'm just not motivated enough, but if i had the time and motivation i'd probably just do a proper UI for synaptic and use that instead 23:12 ochosi: ack - but moving because we had to just added different issues 23:12 (how hard can that be) 23:12 quite 23:12 I couldn't do it :D 23:12 i think two afternoons of work for two people 23:12 uh oh 23:12 but that's only the UI 23:12 or 2 years if one was me 23:13 features will be still missing 23:13 i know 23:13 I think the issue is the paid stuff and snaps 23:13 doesn't it also handle flatpak? 23:13 or is that only outside ubuntu 23:13 So, it's feeling like we keep gnome-software for now for lack of anything "better" 23:13 don't forget that the Gnome project will keep improving -software 23:14