== Meeting information == * #xubuntu-devel: Xubuntu community meeting, 17 Nov at 22:00 — 23:28 UTC * Full logs at [[http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2017/xubuntu-devel.2017-11-17-22.00.log.html]] == Meeting summary == === Open action items === The discussion about "Open action items" started at 22:02. === Updates and announcements === The discussion about "Updates and announcements" started at 22:02. * QA Staging PPA is now available at https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ubuntu/staging * PulseAudio Plugin and Status Notifier Plugin are now included in Bionic, replacing indicator-application, indicator-sound, and xfce4-volumed * Next milestone, November 30: Feature Definition Freeze === Discussion === The discussion about "Discussion" started at 22:04. * '''Replace GNOME components with MATE components (bluesabre)''' (22:04) * ''Vote:'' OK to replace GNOME components with MATE counterparts? (Carried) * Carrying on with the transition to MATE components * ''ACTION:'' bluesabre to change seed for GNOME/MATE apps transition before FDF * '''Core on tracker? (flocculant)''' (22:22) * '''Xfce Power Manager 1.6.x (bluesabre, ochosi)''' (22:40) * ''ACTION:'' bluesabre and ochosi to get on with it and include xfpm 1.6 * '''Investigate replacing elementary-xfce with Suru (ochosi)''' (22:53) * ''LINK:'' https://community.ubuntu.com/t/icon-theme-discussions/1925 * '''Xubuntu desktop for 18.04''' (22:59) * ''LINK:'' https://i.imgur.com/xPqWI4K.png * ''LINK:'' https://community.ubuntu.com/t/suggestion-use-mate-applications-in-the-eventual-unity-7-flavor-of-ubuntu-18-04/1949 * ''ACTION:'' flocculant to send a proposal on improving panel configuration === Schedule next meeting === The discussion about "Schedule next meeting" started at 23:24. === Other discussions === The discussion about "Other discussions" started at 23:25. * ''ACTION:'' knome to wake up the discussion about the community wallpaper contest === Schedule next meeting === The discussion about "Schedule next meeting" started at 23:27. == Vote results == * [[http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2017/xubuntu-devel.2017-11-17-22.00.log.html#113 OK to replace GNOME components with MATE counterparts?]] * Motion carried (For/Against/Abstained 6/0/1) * Voters knome, akxwi-dave, flocculant, krytarik, slickymaster, pleia2, bluesabre == Action items, by person == * bluesabre * bluesabre to change seed for GNOME/MATE apps transition before FDF * bluesabre and ochosi to get on with it and include xfpm 1.6 * flocculant * flocculant to send a proposal on improving panel configuration * knome * knome to wake up the discussion about the community wallpaper contest * ochosi * bluesabre and ochosi to get on with it and include xfpm 1.6 == Done items == * (none) == People present (lines said) == * knome (229) * flocculant (164) * bluesabre (121) * ochosi (74) * flexiondotorg (53) * slickymaster (26) * meetingology (20) * akxwi-dave (4) * krytarik (4) * pleia2 (2) * ubottu (1) == Full Log == 22:00 #startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting 22:00 Meeting started Fri Nov 17 22:00:04 2017 UTC. The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. 22:00 22:00 Available commands: action commands idea info link nick 22:00 !chair bluesabre ochosi 22:00 knome: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :) 22:00 err 22:00 #chair bluesabre ochosi 22:00 Current chairs: bluesabre knome ochosi 22:00 or 22:00 hi everyone 22:00 hi 22:00 who's here for the meeting? 22:00 evening peeps 22:00 o/ 22:00 ochosi said he'd be here, just a bit late 22:01 pleia2, want to join the fun? 22:01 ohi 22:01 not sure if I'll manage to make through the all meeting 22:01 kryyyyteeeen 22:01 Yes! 22:01 hi pleia2 :) 22:01 slickymaster, just don't empty the whole rum bottle.. 22:01 wow, dkessel's idle time is 67 days 22:01 but don't let the guests do that either 22:01 thing is, I also want to have some before it disappears 22:02 that :p 22:02 #topic Open action items 22:02 yep 22:02 there are none 22:02 they're all done :) 22:02 #topic Updates and announcements 22:02 bluesabre, staging PPA 22:02 want to open that up or just announce? 22:03 Fine to just announce for now, I think there is/was a mail going out to the ML with more details 22:03 oki 22:03 is 22:04 #info QA Staging PPA is now available at https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ubuntu/staging 22:04 #info PulseAudio Plugin and Status Notifier Plugin are now included in Bionic, replacing indicator-application, indicator-sound, and xfce4-volumed 22:04 #info Next milestone, November 30: Feature Definition Freeze 22:04 #topic Discussion 22:04 #subtopic Replace GNOME components with MATE components (bluesabre) 22:04 bluesabre, the floor is yours 22:04 Alrighty, so a bit of rationale 22:05 Our current GNOME components are patched in Ubuntu to replace the headerbars with normal window manager controls and menus 22:05 That requires manpower to maintain, and Ubuntu is likely to just drop the patches going forward 22:06 MATE is a DE more similar to Xfce, window manager and menus included 22:06 question 22:06 Yes? 22:06 is the dropping (if) down to moving from unity to gnome and not needing the patches? 22:07 Yes, since Unity needed the menus to work correctly with the global menus 22:07 ok - cool, just wasn't sure 22:07 sorry for interruption :) 22:08 The components I've listed, evince -> atril, file-roller -> engrampa, gnome-calculator -> mate-calc, are basically drop in replacements 22:08 headerbar == CSD? 22:08 yes 22:08 right, so do we have CSD in other apps 22:08 like some apps bluesabre wrote 22:08 Yes, where we have more control to make sure they work well in xfce 22:08 right 22:09 gnome-calculator has a menu that seems to come and go when running in xfce 22:09 Currently, it does not show for me 22:09 But it would normally show in GNOME shell 22:09 do you think this transition will happen during 18.04? 22:09 same here, bluesabre 22:09 :) 22:09 knome, I think it will 22:09 And if we are willing to move now, it will probably help their decision 22:09 also, you say the replacements are drop in... do they share the same codebase? 22:10 I'd hope if it does - then it happens soon 22:10 MATE components are basically the GNOME 2 variants, ported to GTK3 with bug fixes 22:10 So, probably 90% same 22:10 right, so instead of using the GNOME3 components that likely get a bit more attention, we're moving to GNOME2 components that are maintained by mate people? 22:11 i'm asking this partly because i want to know what the future for these components looks like 22:11 MATE is pretty popular and has strong development 22:11 eg. does mate have the manpower to maintain them and are they willing to do it 22:11 flexiondotorg: you about? 22:11 It could easily be argued they have more eyes on them than xfce 22:12 o/ 22:12 knome: I feel confident they will be maintained for the foreseeable future 22:12 flexiondotorg will likely be able to answer that for us :) 22:12 flexiondotorg: we're thinking of using some MATE components instead of GNOME, thoughts? 22:13 flexiondotorg, or in other words, how many bottles of rum are you willing to donate to slickymaster if we do? 22:13 Ok. Applications or components of the DE? 22:13 apps 22:13 Ok 22:13 just 22:13 evince -> atril, file-roller -> engrampa, gnome-calculator -> mate-calc 22:13 for now 22:13 Right. 22:14 * slickymaster waits 22:14 flexiondotorg: the question was 22:14 < knome> eg. does mate have the manpower to maintain them and are they willing to do it 22:14 Interesting. Because just today we've been discussing how we might decouple the apps from the core DE release schedule. 22:14 So the apps can iterate at their own pace. 22:15 We have a small but dedicated team. We've been maintaining them for years and intend to continue to do so. 22:15 Might need to review how deep the deps go on some of the apps. 22:16 that'd be nice 22:16 Wouldn't want you pulling in stuff you don't require. 22:16 sounds great 22:16 mate-calc is fine. 22:16 Those three seem pretty minimal, might need to recommends to include theme alternatives 22:16 Pretty open to packaging patches? 22:16 I'll check the apps you're interested in and report back in a bit. 22:17 awesome, thanks flexiondotorg 22:17 flexiondotorg: you are a gent :) 22:17 Yes, more than happy to collaborate and help you guys out. 22:17 thanks 22:17 i think this is "big enough" that we need a vote just for the sake of it... 22:17 so let's start it here 22:17 Ubuntu Kylin is based on MATE now too. So we've done this before. 22:17 team is 11, so we need 6 votes at minimum 22:19 #vote OK to replace GNOME components with MATE counterparts? 22:19 Please vote on: OK to replace GNOME components with MATE counterparts? 22:19 Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname) 22:19 +1 22:19 +1 received from bluesabre 22:19 +1 22:19 +1 received from knome 22:19 +1 22:19 +1 received from krytarik 22:19 +1 22:19 +1 received from flocculant 22:19 +1 22:19 +1 received from akxwi-dave 22:19 * flocculant wakes up pleia2 slickymaster and krytarik 22:19 slickymaster, you still waiting for the rum offer or ready to vote? 22:19 +1 22:19 +1 received from slickymaster 22:19 just having a sip 22:20 :) 22:20 pleia2, want to cast a vote? 22:20 +0 22:20 +0 received from pleia2 22:20 sorry krytarik - was looking for kryten ... 22:20 lol 22:20 :) 22:20 #endvote 22:20 Voting ended on: OK to replace GNOME components with MATE counterparts? 22:20 Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1 22:20 Motion carried 22:21 #info Carrying on with the transition to MATE components 22:21 That step was painless 22:21 yes 22:21 can we have a 'if it's March when it happens - QA can say no' vote ... 22:21 "but you only won by one vote, lulz" 22:21 flocculant: planning to make it happen asap 22:21 :) 22:21 bluesabre: I'd assumed so :) 22:21 #action bluesabre to change seed for GNOME/MATE apps transition before FDF 22:21 * meetingology bluesabre to change seed for GNOME/MATE apps transition before FDF 22:22 tongue was firmly in cheek ;) 22:22 hopping over power manager for now since ochosi is away 22:22 #subtopic Core on tracker? (flocculant) 22:22 flexiondotorg: looking forward to working with you more :) 22:22 oh sigh 22:22 flocculant, ta-dah! 22:22 dahhhhhhhhhh 22:22 so this is one simple question - then a not simple question ... 22:22 first then 22:23 So I was about to work on some Ubuntu MATE, but I take a look at the apps you're interested in instead and provide some initial feedback. 22:23 do we add 'Core' to the tracker for Unit193, slickymaster and me to add a result 2 or 3 times? 22:23 flexiondotorg, great, can you send it to our mailing list? :) 22:23 flexiondotorg: thanks :) 22:23 Given you guys are fmailiar with GTK, would you be up for offering patches and such upstream to address issue you encounter? 22:24 flexiondotorg: definitely 22:24 * flocculant hangs on 22:24 We like it when things work well 22:24 flexiondotorg, just go on... :) 22:24 err, flocculant 22:24 silly fl's 22:24 :D 22:24 * flocculant waits a bit longer 22:24 flocculant: I think we should hold on including on the tracker until we can get core patches in 22:24 secondly 22:25 I'm planning on reviewing them next week, and them nudging people a bunch 22:25 what's the score with a real core - that we can get on tracker that builds daily? 22:25 that's the real crux of the matter imo 22:25 i'm still +1 for the core/base thing, and i want to give all support for it 22:25 iirc 22:25 same here 22:25 bluesabre, ^ so please let me know if you need help with it 22:25 That's definitely related 22:25 this is at least the second LTS we've had this discussion 22:26 yup 22:26 Going to make these not TODO this cycle 22:26 one question is how much Unit193 is still interested in getting this forward? 22:26 [xubuntu-dev] xubuntu-core: Refresh debian-cd patches: TODO 22:26 [xubuntu-dev] xubuntu-core: Refresh livecd-rootfs patches: TODO 22:26 [xubuntu-dev] xubuntu-core: Refresh ubuntu-cdimage patches: TODO 22:26 [ubuntu-cdimage] xubuntu-core: Review and merge patches: BLOCKED 22:26 :( 22:26 i mean, i understand this is frustrating and all and if he's lost the interest 22:26 knome: I'm going to try to spearhead this a bit, Unit193 is probably (rightfully) burned out on this 22:27 bluesabre, yes, that's a good idea, though the other issue is that soon it will all be on you 22:27 knome: I think it's entirely possivlt that he's considerably fed up with the whole thing - the doing it 'officially' thing that is 22:27 o/ 22:27 s/possible 22:27 hello ochosi 22:27 sry i'm late 22:27 np 22:27 i'll try to catch up 22:27 flocculant, yes, indeed, which is why i'm bringing up this question 22:27 ochosi: catch up just before the meeting started ... 22:28 knome: 22:28 knome: once the patches are in, there should be minimal maintenance required after the fact... hopefully I can return it to krytarik and Unit193 at that point 22:28 and in case we do get progressing, is he willing to pick it back up then 22:28 sure 22:28 last time 'we' spoke he was less politely pissed off 22:28 not wanting to put words in someone else's tongue 22:28 i'm aware 22:29 flocculant: yeah, no need :) 22:29 and I completely agree with it tbh 22:29 So mate-calc. From a deps point of view no issues. 22:29 frankly I think we've just been given the runaround by canonical people 22:29 However, the .desktop file Name is "MATE Calculator". 22:29 we're perhaps too damn polite 22:30 i don't know how CC even works nowadays, but maybe we should just contact them if nothing happens 22:30 * flocculant winds his neck in a bit 22:30 and get on with it 22:30 I've not discussed this with the MATE team, but I've been wanting to drop the MATE prefixes on some of the app names. 22:30 Perhaps now is the time :-) 22:30 from what i gathered, one of the issues is "core" vs. "base" 22:30 though i've told them we'll go with "base" if that's really the only issue... 22:30 flexiondotorg turns out to be really useful tonight :D 22:30 flexiondotorg: that shouldn't be an issue, but cool if that were to happen 22:31 flexiondotorg, +1 for dropping MATE prefixes, me like 22:31 flocculant: we're seeing the other benefit of using MATE bits, we're a lot closer to the MATE folks in general 22:31 knome: I'm on the CC. We're all new this time round. If you have questions feel free to ask. 22:31 can we give flexiondotorg a brief resume of the core thing - as he's got his CC hat on 22:31 probably better leave that to outside the meeting 22:31 yeah 22:31 why? 22:31 time? 22:31 that too 22:32 I remember the "core thing" I prepared patches for Xubuntu and Ubuntu MATE ages ago. 22:32 ok - let's shelve it for a bit, but not a very long bit :D 22:32 flocculant, indeed not 22:32 the discussion 22:32 yep 22:32 anything else on core for the meeting? 22:33 I'll hold fire on tracker for the moment then 22:33 and oh - yes 22:33 Just gotta refresh patches and then take another stab at it 22:33 Pluma looks all fine. No issues IMO. 22:33 i don't mind if core is on tracker nevertheless 22:33 flexiondotorg, pluma? :P 22:33 flexiondotorg: yeah, we won't be needing pluma though :) 22:33 knome: I don't want to confuse it 22:33 The text editor from MATE. 22:33 k, if i may add a small comment to the s/gnome/mate/ vote (even though the motion has already passed), i would look at each component separately and check if there are any important features we'd be missing 22:33 last cycle - it ended up being rebuilt somehow 22:34 it's not like the gnome components haven't been developed since gtk3 was started 22:34 flocculant, i understand 22:34 Oh, Pluma wasn't on the list :-) 22:34 ochosi, right, but tbh what features would there be for those three apps that we needed really? 22:34 :) 22:34 ochosi: indeed, but the apps we're interested in aren't super feature full... calc, pdf, and archive 22:35 but noted :) 22:35 yes, if their basic functions work, they are perfect 22:35 maybe do a mail about it when they've landed 22:35 to run some checking 22:35 yup 22:35 or even do it before if people are willing 22:35 Some config and shortcuts to be updated 22:35 dunno, with evince i'd be taking a closer look (at least to me that's a VIA - very important app) 22:35 we can do a testing call when they land 22:36 but it... reads pdf? :D 22:36 ochosi: could I have you test any special features there you depend on? 22:36 So Engrampa (archive manager) should be fine. 22:36 Pulls in extension library for Caja (file manager) but that is only 18Kb. 22:36 OMZG 22:36 :P 22:37 does it *really* need it though? 22:37 bluesabre: could we land them in stages? 22:37 i think if we want "stages", then just first tell people to install them from the repo 22:37 and if nothing is wrong for a while, change the seed 22:37 or would you rather just jfdi? 22:38 knome: For Xubuntu no. So we could have an or in the Recommends: to reference an something from XFCE :-) 22:38 flocculant: we could, what sort of staging schedule would you want? 22:38 flocculant, akxwi-dave and can each pick one and test them 22:38 I'm more inclined to just do it all at once so I don't go missing for too long :D 22:38 knome: then we don't know if what people have locally are affecting them? 22:38 Would be a good idea to install these one at a time in a clean Xubuntu VM and see what gets pulled in. 22:38 meh :) 22:38 bluesabre: jfdi then :) 22:38 lol 22:39 flexiondotorg: i think for xfce you don't need any recommends for engrampa (weird gerontophile name btw ;)) 22:39 I can do that in a vm tomorrow 22:39 the change in seed is a small one, it's fast to revert too 22:39 flexiondotorg: Yeah, I'll check it out and see if anything surprising comes in 22:39 or flocculant :) 22:39 :D 22:39 anything surprising or flocculant? 22:39 flocculant is surprising 22:39 i would definitely consider flocculant in my app surprising 22:39 both ... 22:39 anyway 22:39 ha ha ha 22:39 engrampa also pulls in caja-common 22:40 can we move on from the core (clearly) discussion? 22:40 not just libcaja-extension1 22:40 yep 22:40 plus mate-icon-theme... 22:40 knome: go for it 22:40 #subtopic Xfce Power Manager 1.6.x (bluesabre, ochosi) 22:40 ochosi: yeah, we'd suggest an alt there 22:40 xfpm! 22:40 :D 22:40 mkay 22:40 so i've been cleaning up bugzilla quite a bit for 1.6 lately 22:40 bluesabre, ochosi: btw, you're both chairs too... just saying 22:40 plus ali has started to help out 22:41 So Atril (doc viewer) and Engrampa (archive manager) both pull in libcaja-extension1 22:41 i've been using 1.6 for a long time already and i don't see any 1.6/gtk3 specific breakage 22:41 ochosi: yeah, I've been using it forever 22:41 there are no functional differences, apart from a few 1.6 features 22:41 That is the 18Kb library for exposing their plugins to Caja. 22:41 e.g. panel-plugin properties dialog 22:42 But we've not uploaded it... so I wonder if there is any reason to be wary of 1.6 over 1.4? 22:42 bluesabre: Are you interested in Eye of MATE (image viewer)? 22:42 flexiondotorg, nope 22:42 Cool. 22:42 the difference was the UPower version initially 22:42 flexiondotorg: nope, we have a good option there already 22:42 and the symbolic icons, but both is a win imo 22:42 ristretto 22:42 ochosi: I agree 22:42 one thing that ppl on desktop systems will notice however is the battery-missing icon that is currently showing 22:42 bluesabre, ochosi: do you need any feedback from others? :D 22:43 hard for me to test xfpm - desktop(s) > mains works ... tick 22:43 but that is something we can fix during this cycle 22:43 or could you have discussed this in a non-meeting environment 22:43 i've already looked a little 22:43 Well, other than the name of MATE Calculator I see no reason why mate-calc, engrampa and artil can't be seeded in Xubuntu. 22:43 no, i just wanted to inform everyone of the status quo from my pov 22:43 ochosi: don't see the icon 22:43 knome: I added it since it was the only thing on our "include maybe" list and I wanted to know if anybody had reasons to avoid it 22:43 Just a bit of history on Atril, forked from Evince. 22:43 flocculant: then you likely use 1.4? 22:44 1.6.0+git-0~2234~ubu 22:44 says dpkg 22:44 Some years a GSoC student added ePub support to Atril. It was not a good job :-( 22:44 flocculant: ah, ok. so what icon do you see? 22:44 We struggled with it ever since, basically getting it stable and working. 22:44 * ochosi doesn't have a desktop to test this... 22:45 We have debated dropping ePub support. 22:45 ochosi: none - just looking to see if I lost it 22:45 flexiondotorg, no worries from our side if you drop it, i'd say 22:45 But any help to strighten out the ePub implementation would be welcome. 22:45 ochosi: ok - on desktoo I see battery with an X 22:45 bluesabre, ochosi: you fancy e-books? 22:45 knome: OK, good to know that is not a deal breaker. 22:45 knome: not really 22:46 nudge nudge, wink wink 22:46 I do e-books, not on the pc though :D 22:46 flocculant: yeah, that is what i would like to improve and the only "regression" 22:46 knome: I fancy them, on my nook 22:46 Could test it though 22:46 I discuss the mate-calc name change with the team in the coming days. 22:46 well i think they already know it's bad ;) 22:46 :D 22:46 I'll avoid it then 22:46 ;') 22:46 so i was kind of wondering if you were fancying a repair work 22:47 ochosi, i agree on the icon issue on desktop; that needs to be sorted out 22:47 ochosi: if nothing an AC instead of a battery would make more sense - though really, an icon showing up if not AC would be btter UI guess 22:47 knome, flexiondotorg, I might be willing to take a look at some point 22:47 Right, I think that is all can do right now. 22:47 :) 22:47 Ping me if you need anything :-) 22:47 flexiondotorg: thanks for being so responsive and helpful :) 22:47 flexiondotorg, we will, thanks a bunch! 22:47 bluesabre: My pleasure. 22:48 flexiondotorg: thanks for looking at that :) 22:48 thanks flexiondotorg 22:48 so... what's the thing with xfpm? 22:48 do we want a vote on it? 22:48 or just go forward? 22:48 knome, flocculant: the difference between 1.4 and 1.6 in that respect is that we now rely on upower to supply the icon (which is nice because it means all icon themes work properly with xfpm), and battery-missing is what upower reports. doesn't mean we can't fix that though 22:48 mmm 22:48 ochosi, i know, i've discussed it with you :) 22:48 knome, ochosi, I think we should plan to include it... bug reports to 1.6 are probably going to get more attention than 1.4 22:49 I mean logically enough I know the battery is missing - I'd be concerned it it wasn't :D 22:49 in the worst case we can include a more neutral icon for battery-missing 22:49 yeah 22:49 for our icon theme... whatever that might be... :P 22:49 i would also say we should include that 22:49 that being 1.6 22:49 ack it with QA :P 22:49 there are also no 1.6 specific bug reports if i'm honest on bugzilla 22:50 then i'll give my +1 with my council hat 22:50 flocculant: say "go for it" 22:50 plus i don't plan on doing 1.4 maintenance 22:50 I can't in all honestly do that bluesabre 22:50 :D 22:50 today is a jfdi day 22:50 that's fair 22:50 I respect that 22:50 :) 22:50 ok, so 22:50 :-) 22:50 so a vote or do we just move on? 22:51 I do check bugzilla as well as lp 22:51 #action bluesabre and ochosi to get on with it and include xfpm 1.6 22:51 * meetingology bluesabre and ochosi to get on with it and include xfpm 1.6 22:51 anything else? 22:51 a point 22:51