== Meeting information == * #xubuntu-devel: Xubuntu Community Meeting, 27 Oct at 22:01 — 23:18 UTC * Full logs at [[http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2017/xubuntu-devel.2017-10-27-22.01.log.html]] == Meeting summary == === Open action items === The discussion about "Open action items" started at 22:03. === Updates and Announcements === The discussion about "Updates and Announcements" started at 22:03. * Blueprints are up: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-b-development * The archive is open * PPAs are ready * Feature Definition Freeze on November 30th: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeatureDefinitionFreeze * Roadmap (all blueprints at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-b-roadmap) === Discussion === The discussion about "Discussion" started at 22:11. * '''Xfce 4.13/4.14''' (22:12) * ''LINK:'' http://pad.ubuntu.com/PyIIYsyIfn * ''ACTION:'' bluesabre to create "stable" and "experimental" PPAs * ''ACTION:'' Unit193 to decommission the xfce4-gtk3 ppa in favor of experimental * ''ACTION:'' bluesabre, ochosi, and Unit193 to review xfce component list for stable/experimental === Schedule next meeting === The discussion about "Schedule next meeting" started at 23:18. * ''ACTION:'' pleia2 to schedule next meeting == Vote results == == Action items, by person == * bluesabre * bluesabre to create "stable" and "experimental" PPAs * bluesabre, ochosi, and Unit193 to review xfce component list for stable/experimental * ochosi * bluesabre, ochosi, and Unit193 to review xfce component list for stable/experimental * Unit193 * Unit193 to decommission the xfce4-gtk3 ppa in favor of experimental * bluesabre, ochosi, and Unit193 to review xfce component list for stable/experimental == Done items == * (none) == People present (lines said) == * flocculant (149) * bluesabre (121) * ochosi (49) * Unit193 (29) * meetingology (8) * slickymaster (3) == Full Log == 22:01 #startmeeting Xubuntu Community Meeting 22:01 Meeting started Fri Oct 27 22:01:17 2017 UTC. The chair is bluesabre. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. 22:01 22:01 Available commands: action commands idea info link nick 22:01 bluesabre: got fot it :D 22:01 for :D 22:01 Who's around? 22:01 o/ 22:01 me !!!!!!!!!!! 22:02 o/ 22:02 #chair ochosi flocculant slickymaster Unit193 22:02 :( 22:02 #chair ochosi flocculant slickymaster Unit193 22:02 Current chairs: Unit193 bluesabre flocculant ochosi slickymaster 22:02 can't say I'm not, now 22:02 :D 22:02 Sneaky 22:02 gah 22:02 Anybody else want a chair ;) 22:02 ... 22:03 Let's get started then 22:03 #topic Open action items 22:03 (and there are none) 22:03 #topic Updates and Announcements 22:03 bluesabre: 22:03 #info Blueprints are up: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-b-development 22:03 #info The archive is open 22:03 #info PPAs are ready 22:03 #info Feature Definition Freeze on November 30th: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeatureDefinitionFreeze 22:04 can I jump in right at the start 22:04 flocculant: go for it 22:04 make a statement and then we can all go 'argue' mode 22:04 ok ... so 22:05 we has bugs 22:05 we has isues 22:05 we has xfce doing stuff 22:05 we has xfce doing stuff for the other year 22:05 and year 22:05 WE have 6 months 22:06 to count for 3 years 22:06 can we PLEASE decide soon 22:06 then we can ALL test 22:07 that is the Xubuntu 18.04 QA statement 22:07 akxwi-dave's not done this 3 year lie 22:07 I have 22:07 not again. 22:07 Full Stop. 22:08 bluesabre: thanks ;) 22:08 Cool, good discussion material :D 22:08 Right, so 4.13 is a *development* release, by the name alone it really shouldn't be in an LTS. 22:08 :D 22:08 yes 22:08 Discussion 22:08 so one sec 22:09 #info Roadmap (all blueprints at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-b-roadmap) 22:09 Anything else we want to #info? 22:10 (for announcements)? 22:10 not from me :D 22:10 me neither 22:10 nothing here also 22:11 Allllrighty, onwards :) 22:11 #topic Discussion 22:11 soory ;) 22:12 We'll move things around a bit 22:12 i vaguely remember we've been there before with 4.12 22:12 #subtopic Xfce 4.13/4.14 22:12 I'll wait now - but I have points here 22:12 Agreed that 4.13 is development and we definitely don't want a lot of dev-y things in there 22:13 But I also think there are some things that are more stable now than in the 4.12 branch 22:13 Thunar was *stable* and a nightmare 22:13 We're Ubuntu based, means we have PPAs. Lets use them, then we can have updates all cycle and not be stuck with 4.13.2 when 4.13.6 was released months ago. 22:13 point 22:13 yeah, PPAs make a lot of sense 22:13 yep 22:14 do we have somewhere we can 'point' and call that IT 22:14 Thunar has out of tree plugins, the new version has no capability for them. It's also at this point something that "if it works, don't touch it" in my mind. :D 22:14 Yes, Thunar was the extreme example, I don't want the dev version :D 22:14 i also agree with bluesabre, some things are more stable/maintained in the devel cycle. plus it's quite hard to really fully assess the stability of the components 22:14 can we just now chuck in gtk3 22:15 At the same time, we also already have some gtk3 components that are dev-level 22:15 Yeeah.. 22:15 what do we have there we can use and force through ppa? 22:15 bluesabre: As a slight reminder, don't touch libxfce4ui. 22:16 Unit193: sure thing 22:16 can I just make an important point - especially from 'out' view 22:16 flocculant: We have our ~xubuntu-dev PPAs which are about as official as we want to get 22:16 -staging can be a safe place to land bug fixes before they land in SRUs 22:16 what are we talking about that we expect tobe gtk3 in 18.04 22:17 That's what this discussion is about :D 22:17 bluesabre: cabn we ignore ppa ftm 22:17 Yes. 22:17 yea yea - so what? 22:17 So focusing... 22:17 give me a list :D 22:17 Panel plugins are generally low impact. 22:18 And we already have most of them 22:18 xfce4-notifyd is stable now 22:18 pa for the most part is drop in 22:18 yes 22:19 and moreso soon 22:19 :) 22:19 exo is stable 22:20 xfce4-settings is dev, but stable (haven't heard otherwise), but probably going to hold until the rest of xfce core is ready 22:20 xfpm will get another release 22:20 and is also stable 22:20 what I would like to do for testing this stuff is quit4e simple, run artful - add this ppa 22:20 Right 22:21 can we do that? 22:21 Want to nail down what we want before I start uploading to a PPA 22:21 and to the archive 22:21 Might be a discussion that goes for a few days 22:21 that's you're calls 22:21 yeah, i'd say we should first get the list 22:21 nd that's fine 22:21 a 22:22 But definitely glad to start the discussion 22:22 I want to be able to say run artful - add this ppa 22:22 flocculant: yes, and we will have that 22:22 cool 22:22 bluesabre: we could have two "levels" of PPAs for artful 22:22 so we can start with 2 lists 22:22 if qa has that then we can push forward 22:23 I've been pushing everything to xfce4-gtk3. 22:23 one that we're confident about, a second one that we're less confident about 22:23 or we don't push for the things we don't trust 22:23 Unit193: a weeklyish of numbers on that ppa would be helpful 22:23 yeah, but the whole "trust" thing is tricky 22:24 ochosi: +1 22:24 I don't trust xfpm past 1.4.4 :3 22:24 why's that? 22:24 so we could possibly have xubuntu-dev/stable and xubuntu-dev/experimental if we want to go that route 22:24 qa position is simple - we'll test - if we have #'s thats great 22:24 point 22:24 yeah, something like that 22:24 Tried it out, didn't exactly go so well, reverted. 22:25 important point 22:25 * flocculant waits 22:26 Unit193: thoughts on the 2-ppa system? 22:26 bluesabre: Eg, I always push to experimental, wait for someone to tell me to copy over? 22:26 #if 'we' have some clue as to something that might land in ppa which could kill everything off - we can use the tracker to point testers to it 22:26 eg 22:26 primary target those who want to test things for us 22:26 DON@T UOGRADE warning :p 22:27 bluesabre: I kind of need something to guide me so I don't go "Oh new $package, uhh...Where the heck does this go? No clue, I'll just pop it in my repo for now." and forget. 22:27 but that takes some communication - whiche even though we're hours apart we're quite good at 22:28 Unit193: yeah, I think that's a good idea. experimental can be a landing place for all those 22:28 i think everything can go to experimental 22:28 my position is a single ppa if poss 22:28 ochosi: ack 22:28 and the things that are on our whitelist for bionic go to staging 22:28 dev'y peeps 22:29 flocculant: the stable ppa would be the way to go for that, and we can have specific calls for testing for items in exp if needed 22:29 another trivial one is xfce4-volume-pulse. i ported it recently 22:29 can we not point people to experimental and stagin? 22:29 bluesabre: surely we need them to do 'breaky' stuff? 22:30 ppa-purge always worked for me 22:30 mmm 22:30 ochosi: I've seen it, but in light of pa-plug does it matter? I'm presuming it doesn't do alsa, so you'd not be able to do volumeicon-alsa+xfce4-volumed anymore? :P 22:30 true 22:30 flocculant: for staging/exp, we can do the same as we do for SRUs, add -proposed, install the package, remove -proposed 22:30 could we not 22:30 If we keep the processes the same, it's easier for contributors coming from anywhere in ubuntu 22:31 stuff we really want = staging, not too sure = exp ? 22:31 yup, that would be my thought 22:31 I'd love to make it simple for testers 22:31 -staging is for updates we plan to land in the archive soon 22:31 and then it's simpler for us 22:31 usually for already released series 22:32 bluesabre: ok - so add a ppa? 22:32 But glad to do what we can to help qa 22:32 dude 22:32 we'll test what you give us :) 22:32 (sorry, everybody is really rapid fire right now) 22:32 ye 22:32 a 22:33 Not used to having meetings with multiple attendees :D 22:33 take 5 22:33 catch up on consensus 22:33 :) 22:33 should we start a piratepad for the two lists of components though? 22:33 ochosi: sounds good to me, want to start that? 22:33 ochosi: ie staging and defintes? 22:33 i mean we can do that in parallel to this meeting and keep it open 22:33 also 22:33 flocculant: yup 22:34 what xfce possibles do we want to have - and are they stable enough? 22:35 is the other one 22:35 http://pad.ubuntu.com/PyIIYsyIfn 22:35 What I'm reading here: "There will be multiple PPAs, for different things due to different levels of desire and testing needs." and what I'm interpreting that as: "Unit193 will always upload to experimental, people can copy over what's needed" :P 22:35 ochosi: That's not a piratepad, fyi. 22:36 potato potato 22:36 Unit193: yes. experimental where all packages can land 22:37 I can live with that. 22:37 I can also point my package tracker thingy at it. 22:37 and stable where approved (we will ship in bionic/oldstable) packages will be copied to when approved 22:39 Good to have that agreed on 22:40 #action bluesabre to create "stable" and "experimental" PPAs 22:40 * meetingology bluesabre to create "stable" and "experimental" PPAs 22:40 Basically, as long as we don't confuse flocculant or Unit193, we're good! 22:40 What happens with xfce4-gtk3? 22:40 Yup 22:40 I'm not sure yet what we do with our existing PPAs 22:40 Unit193: :) 22:41 I think -gtk3 still has a purpose, staging may no longer with stable 22:41 flocculant: Also, whatever you want from me, please ask. I'm generally accommodating enough, but I can't read minds. :3 22:42 :) 22:42 bluesabre: -staging was pre-SRU stuff, xfce4-gtk3 is what experimental sounds like. 22:42 bluesabre: can we back set 'fairl unused ppa's to artful' assuming then that someone like me would just sety it to Steve Majors? 22:42 if I wanted to 22:42 flocculant: I really have no idea what that sentence means 22:43 so all our 'we want this stuff tested' was at right version 22:43 bluesabre: Steve Majors was the 6 Million Dollar Man 22:44 flocculant: I know what that is, but nothing more :D 22:44 oic failr - fairly unused 22:45 We'll have the new PPAs only running artful and bionic, and will drop a when c starts 22:45 so - I'd move to bionic cos I update daily - not monthly 22:45 So we have everything running the env we want 22:45 k - I think that's the same thing :D 22:45 Unit193: I think we can drop the -gtk3 ppa in favor of experimental then 22:46 yea 22:46 that's my position 22:46 Unit193: you want the task to decomm that PPA (after copying over)? 22:46 bluesabre: I can do that, if you put it as blocked by yours. 22:47 Unit193: certainly :) 22:47 #action Unit193 to decommission the xfce4-gtk3 ppa in favor of experimental 22:47 * meetingology Unit193 to decommission the xfce4-gtk3 ppa in favor of experimental 22:47 bluesabre Unit193 ochosi - what I would like from qa pov - is anything that's likely 18.04 bound in one place 22:48 if themesis a pain - then I'll make 1 exception :D 22:48 That's where we're heading with this plan :) 22:48 I thought so :D 22:49 I just ned something concretish to tell peopl 22:49 e 22:49 or akxwi-dave does - cos all tasks :p 22:49 flocculant: I'll also add a new template for xfpanel-switch to grab our new panel plugins to make it easier for artful users to get set up 22:49 noice 22:50 bluesabre: you wanto hold fire there 22:50 cos defaults .... 22:50 Yeah, we can't replace panel defaults in an already created session, so that's the next best thing for the panel 22:51 bluesabre: but we can have new defaults? or the whole world is on dos6 :D 22:51 if only 22:52 could ask testers to create new sessions too, if it's not just about panel settings 22:52 yeah 22:52 s/sessions/accounts/ 22:52 xubuntu council - I would like us to loom at defaults 22:52 bah 22:52 s/loom/look 22:53 technically we have new defaults available in the daily ppa and can land them in exp/stable when we make them 22:53 yea but testing 22:53 we've already had 2 weeks of the time we never get :D 22:54 I'm not sure what the question is :D 22:54 Log out, flip to TTY, rm -rf ~/.config/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xfce4-panel.xml then log back in. 22:54 anyway - point was leave defaults till that discussion 22:54 bluesabre: ^^ 22:54 gotcha 22:54 Right, and here's where the daily PPA is nice, so as not to confuse with experimental. 22:54 yea 22:54 I think we need 2 for sure 22:55 definites/mm reallys 22:55 whichever way we look - we've got freezes to work with 22:56 Yep 22:56 MY point is that - if we've got less ppa's to get people loooking 22:56 tghen we tghen arrow in on issues 22:56 Correct 22:57 And we don't miss things by running things that won't be included in bionic 22:57 like all the -gtk3 bits of xfce 22:57 rather than me seeing something on ppa785 and akxwi-dave seeing the sqame thing on 364 - but same package 22:57 Yup 22:58 yea cool 22:58 So we'll get that straightened out quickly 22:58 2 ppa's for the whole cycle wou;ld be great for me 22:58 people ppa 22:58 kev ppa 22:58 And we'll work on the list for the next few days 22:58 yup 22:58 type thing 22:58 Anything else we want to discuss? 22:59 bluesabre: this is topic 1 :S 22:59 Concerns, team deadlines, etc? 22:59 from my side that's the main part 22:59 Q: ...Does that mean we'll have to put daily builds in experimental? :/ 22:59 Unit193: I think daily should stay in daily 22:59 goodgood job it's one topic :D 22:59 Good, I don't want those. :3 22:59 They might be months away from any release 23:00 oh what 23:00 flocculant: The topics I had were Dev/QA Coordination, Artful -> Bionic testing PPAs, Package updates: Xfce 4.14 components, PulseAudio Plugin, StatusNotifier Plugin ... and we've smashed them all together :D 23:00 flocculant: the daily things 23:01 #action bluesabre, ochosi, and Unit193 to review xfce component list for stable/experimental 23:01 * meetingology bluesabre, ochosi, and Unit193 to review xfce component list for stable/experimental 23:01 ththatbah 23:02 sao 23:02 Just so we have it on the todo 23:02 terminal in bionic hangs and kills irssi 23:02 seemingly :p 23:02 :) 23:03 Anything else? 23:03 cos oh what - was me doing an 0_0 23:03 :D 23:03 nee to think there - not meeting thing, just you 2 and qa 23:04 s/nee/need 23:04 i'll need to leave quite soonish 23:04 bluesabre: Sidebar after meeting? 23:04 anything else i can contribute to tonight? 23:05 ochosi: just quickly 23:05 Unit193: sure thing 23:06 ochosi: I notice that shimmer stuff comes through rapid - and I kind of know to go look at changelog and ignore 'translation' but how would berty using the ppa have a clue? 23:07 you mean the shimmer PPA? 23:07 everyone needs to obviously be aware that berty is just some person - for the logs 23:07 ochosi: yea 23:08 tbh i'm not even sure anymore what's inside these days, i build everything from git... 23:08 Those are daily builds, so not much can be determined just by the package 23:08 icon theme and greybird? 23:08 or more? 23:08 I also see words in xfce-dev about ignore anything languagishy 23:08 yeah, we discussed ignoring it in the git log on the web frontend 23:08 as it stands 23:09 anything else will be hard/impossible/meaningless 23:09 non-ppa - check changelog - some words 23:09 for greybird there can be needed changes, but we can try to push them through the new PPAs instead of the shimmer PPA 23:10 and the icon theme should come through xubuntu-artwork anyhow 23:10 ppa- check changelog - ha ha ha ha ha ha - do what buddy, do one, no information her 23:10 e 23:10 I know - I'll go off if I care and find it 23:10 I would just look at the release pages to see what's new, https://github.com/shimmerproject/Greybird/releases, https://github.com/shimmerproject/elementary-xfce/releases, not a ton of activity on either besides fixes 23:11 exactly 23:11 We can probably add links to the PPAs for things that are less clear (like artwork) 23:11 i try to write meaningful release messages though 23:11 so all changes should be reflected there in a "management summary" 23:11 bluesabre: that works for you beCAUSE YOU KNOW git 23:11 sorry for odd caps 23:11 flocculant: that's not gitty, it's paragraphy :D 23:11 :d 23:11 this is really a *management* summary 23:12 anyone can read and understand 23:12 and if you don't know what certain widgets are, it'll be hard to explain in text anyway.. 23:12 at least you can google with those release notes 23:12 I always end up at some random lp page log knowing that a + is soimething added and a - is a loss 23:13 and that mostly all the shimmer stuff is + random language - random langauge 23:14 yeah, stay away from the commits :) 23:14 it's not meant to be understandable 23:14 omg the Sapnish guy forgot the word for toilet - never mind someone will remember in the end 23:14 the two links above don't go to commits (if you haven't clicked yet) 23:14 bluesabre: ack - but only way to see ppa changes :D 23:15 yeah, that's a feature request for PPAs :) 23:15 flocculant: right, but there is nothing we can do with that, lp limitation 23:15 * bluesabre shrugs 23:15 Anything else? 23:17 I think my stuff is after-meeting? Not entirely sure. 23:17 Uploads? 23:17 Varies. 23:18 bluesabre: yea - understood that :p 23:18 We can just do it after then :) 23:18 #topic Schedule next meeting 23:18 ok, if there's nothing else where you need my direct input i'll be on my way 23:18 nothing more here 23:18 pleia2: sorry for stealing you meeting slot... 23:18 #action pleia2 to schedule next meeting 23:18 * meetingology pleia2 to schedule next meeting 23:18 #endmeeting Generated by MeetBot 0.1.5 (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology)