== Meeting information == * #xubuntu-devel: Xubuntu Community Meeting, 20 May at 20:31 — 21:49 UTC * Full logs at [[http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2016/xubuntu-devel.2016-05-20-20.31.log.html]] == Meeting summary == === Open Action Items === The discussion about "Open Action Items" started at 20:33. === Updates and Announcements === The discussion about "Updates and Announcements" started at 20:34. * ochosi has started porting xfce4-clipman-plugin and gaston has ported some other small plugins to gtk3 * all images currently fail with ubi-console error - though can be installed if ignored * knome has been working on a new tracker where all work items are tracked internally (eg. not in LP) - mails will follow when it's ready enough for others to test and evaluate whether we want to use that * tracker now shows (more or less) a daily +/- on whether our image boots at least * ochosi looked at what would be necessary for gtk3.20 support for greybird, and it's basically a rewrite (even though ubuntu doesn't seem to be likely to upgrade gtk3 this cycle as they're still looking for a new larsu, i'd rather get a head-start on this as soon as i can) * unlikely that QA will run IRC sessions unless they get more positivity about them * ''LINK:'' https://git.launchpad.net/~davmor2/+git/iso-updater/tree/update.py * ''ACTION:'' ochosi will see whether he can come up with ways to automate the ISO installing with jenkins === Discussion === The discussion about "Discussion" started at 20:45. * '''Xubuntu Council''' (20:46) * ''LINK:'' https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2016-May/011167.html * ''ACTION:'' knome to send a reminder mail to reply to the council proposal within a week * ''ACTION:'' knome to initialize voting on the council proposal on devel ML (week from now) * ''ACTION:'' ochosi to send mail to micah and jackson about their membership and the upcoming council vote * '''User Team Lead''' (21:10) * '''Thunar''' (21:21) * '''Cursor bug''' (21:28) * ''LINK:'' https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-video-intel/+bug/1568604 * '''Back to User Team Lead''' (21:34) * ''LINK:'' http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-user-team-proposal === Schedule next meeting === The discussion about "Schedule next meeting" started at 21:48. * Debian Liaison Unit193 to schedule next meeting == Vote results == == Action items, by person == * knome * knome to send a reminder mail to reply to the council proposal within a week * knome to initialize voting on the council proposal on devel ML (week from now) * ochosi * ochosi will see whether he can come up with ways to automate the ISO installing with jenkins * ochosi to send mail to micah and jackson about their membership and the upcoming council vote == Done items == * (none) == People present (lines said) == * flocculant (169) * knome (154) * ochosi (116) * pleia2 (30) * slickymaster (21) * meetingology (11) * Unit193 (6) * ubottu (3) * aaronraimist (1) == Full Log == 20:31 #startmeeting Xubuntu Community Meeting 20:31 Meeting started Fri May 20 20:31:59 2016 UTC. The chair is ochosi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. 20:31 20:31 Available commands: action commands idea info link nick 20:32 o/ 20:32 !team | alright, let the games begin 20:32 alright, let the games begin: akxwi-dave, bluesabre, dkessel, flocculant, jjfrv8, knome, krytarik, micahg, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster and Unit193 20:32 \O 20:32 mmm games 20:32 wow, the bubblehead from theme park 20:32 o/ 20:32 err 20:32 theme hospital 20:32 okeydokey 20:32 let's walk through... 20:33 #topic Open Action Items 20:33 are there any? 20:33 nope 20:33 well, the one there is was cancelled 20:33 not enough time 20:33 k 20:33 what was it? 20:33 what? 20:33 dkessel's mail about the pi testing 20:34 not enough time - or not enough people to actually do something about it? 20:34 he said he didn't have enough time to carry out the testing and stuff itself, so no reason to send a mail 20:34 right 20:34 there was another mail on the ML about the same thing 20:34 let's move on then... 20:34 read that 20:34 where i replied that if we get enough interested parties... 20:34 yup 20:34 #topic Updates and Announcements 20:34 any updates? 20:35 quick one 20:35 #info ochosi has started porting xfce4-clipman-plugin and gaston has ported some other small plugins to gtk3 20:35 #info all images currently fail with ubi-console error - though can be installed if ignored 20:35 (we can discuss whether we want to integrate the plugins in the discussion section) 20:35 * flocculant has question about ochosi's at some point :) 20:36 #info knome has been working on a new tracker where all work items are tracked internally (eg. not in LP) - mails will follow when it's ready enough for others to test and evaluate whether we want to use that 20:36 #info tracker now shows (more or less) a daily +/- on whether our image boots at least 20:36 #info ochosi looked at what would be necessary for gtk3.20 support for greybird, and it's basically a rewrite (even though ubuntu doesn't seem to be likely to upgrade gtk3 this cycle as they're still looking for a new larsu, i'd rather get a head-start on this as soon as i can) 20:37 #info unlikely that QA will run IRC sessions unless they get more positivity about them 20:37 - k, that was it from my side 20:38 flocculant: are there still plans for a community-driven jenkins? 20:38 ochosi: well 20:38 i vaguely remember some automated testing stuff from past months 20:38 do we have the time in a meeting? 20:38 yes 20:38 :P 20:38 flocculant: depends... :) 20:38 afaik - it's still in plan, but I am the eternal ... 20:39 and nothing happened for us pre LTS so I see no reason why it'd not suddenly happen post LTS 20:39 and also 20:39 just wondering whether at least the downloading and installing the iso part could be automated so that we could get some feedback on whether that part works and you don't have to do that manually 20:40 given that just because autotest passed/failed it seemed to make no difference at all to whether *we* could boot or use that image 20:40 seems rather pointless to carry on hoping imo 20:40 so 20:40 I got images to build much earlier 20:40 I zsync locally 20:40 and balloons is not working with QA stuff any more 20:40 they are looking for a replacement 20:40 I update our tracker status tab 20:41 getting help and push from that person would be vital imo 20:41 when I see build fail - I check that 20:41 then rinse repeat 20:41 i'll keep this in the back of my mind, but maybe i can think of a way to automatically dl, install and run the ISO and report the results with jenkins 20:41 knome: if you ask me then any replacement is likely to be more *ubuntu* 20:42 main issue is likely automating the installer 20:42 flocculant, likely so 20:42 ok, anyway, so not too much hope on that front 20:42 good to have cleared it up still 20:42 any other updates? 20:42 or can we move to the discussion part 20:42 ochosi: davmor2 gave me a script that grabbed iso and synced it - maybe look into that together ish? 20:43 flocculant: sure, pastebin it 20:43 so no more updates though? 20:43 https://git.launchpad.net/~davmor2/+git/iso-updater/tree/update.py 20:43 ochosi: ^^ 20:43 i'm fine 20:43 obviosuly that's ubuntu centric 20:43 oh ok 20:43 well this is just the zsyncing part 20:44 i was more thinking about automating the complete install process of ISO 20:44 yeah 20:44 ochosi: I have some kvm commands that work locally 20:44 the download/sync part is the easy one 20:44 knome: well 20:44 anyhoo, let's not drag this on too much longer, the discussion needs time 20:44 #topic Discussion 20:44 ochosi: perhaps an ACTION 20:45 what action? 20:45 #undo 20:45 Removing item from minutes: TOPIC 20:45 go ahead then 20:45 on the auto stuff 20:45 right 20:45 #action ochosi will see whether he can come up with ways to automate the ISO installing with jenkins 20:45 * meetingology ochosi will see whether he can come up with ways to automate the ISO installing with jenkins 20:45 #topic Discussion 20:46 #subtopic Xubuntu Council 20:46 so i guess i posted most of my thoughts on the ML 20:47 yup 20:47 and me 20:47 and flocculant 20:47 so anyone else around? :P 20:47 ML or team email? 20:47 pleia2: both afaik 20:47 ML 20:47 well, some initial discussion was on team mail 20:48 ah yes, knome's thread 20:48 but the proposal was on the ML 20:48 yup 20:48 i think the ML thread has all the information we need to get the discussion here done now 20:48 #link https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2016-May/011167.html 20:48 i mean, it has the actual proposition based on the discussion with the team 20:48 yeah, so basically i see all my points resolved 20:49 i'm good with the proposal as is 20:49 me too 20:49 it still needs to be fixed into a XSD section 20:49 so some supporting words 20:49 not too many 20:49 there are maybe some small details we still need to flesh out (like whether the council can autonomously decide to split the chair), but other than that it's good 20:49 it still needs to be ratified by team 20:49 indeed 20:50 so i'd say voting is next 20:50 I also favour a three members council proposal 20:50 should we vote on the baseline now (eg. anything that's written on the proposal) 20:50 I'd say yes knome 20:50 and then when the XSD stuff is written, vote again to approve the details 20:50 knome: I would think so 20:50 everyone had time to read now 20:50 sounds good to me 20:50 are we enough for a quorum though? 20:50 as long as it goes to M/L for vote 20:50 after that's done, then send the section to community council 20:51 or anyway, yeah, the ML 20:51 ochosi: don't think so 20:51 yeah, i'd suggest a mailing list (only) vote 20:51 ok great 20:51 regardless - I think this should go to M/L 20:51 gets archived too 20:51 knome: wanna set up the vote, since it was "your" thread? :) 20:51 #action knome to initialize voting on the council proposal on devel ML 20:51 * meetingology knome to initialize voting on the council proposal on devel ML 20:51 2 ticks 20:51 ^ there's your answer 20:52 can we word it so that people can 'ahem' before voting 20:52 like? 20:52 give them more time to react? 20:52 because currently we have 2 or 3 voices in that thread 20:52 and this isn't something like 'let's get rid of gmb' 20:52 well the thread is 1 week old 20:52 :) 20:52 do we want more? 20:53 well 20:53 we're giving the council 2 to postpone :p 20:53 i'd say if the voting results in a discussion we can stop/inhibit the voting 20:53 but maybe starting a vote is a good trigger for getting more feedback 20:53 otherwise the thread might just sit there for another week 20:53 I would say - we're voting - 2 weeks, react to previous thread to stop vote - or something 20:53 well, 20:54 but 20:54 voting should be 1 week 20:54 if we want to give people more time to react, let's postpone the start of voting 20:54 we have to have some sort of deadline - and ochosi is not XPL in 6 ish weeks 20:54 i'd say "if you have serious doubts regarding the proposal either vote against it or ask for postponing the vote and reopening the discussion" 20:54 knome: ok - so do a thread, 1 week, then vote thread 20:55 i can send a reminder mail to reply to the thread before X if there is anything anybody wants to change, and also note that voting will start on X 20:55 ochosi, can you #undo 20:55 knome: ack that 20:55 #undo 20:55 Removing item from minutes: ACTION 20:55 #action knome to send a reminder mail to reply to the council proposal within a week 20:55 * meetingology knome to send a reminder mail to reply to the council proposal within a week 20:55 I just want this to be done as *right* as the group of us can manage 20:55 #action knome to initialize voting on the council proposal on devel ML (week from now) 20:55 * meetingology knome to initialize voting on the council proposal on devel ML (week from now) 20:56 ok, sounds good to me 20:56 so another thing that kind of overlaps with this 20:56 knome: thanks 20:56 everybody fine with this so we can move on to the next subtopic? 20:56 I am 20:56 how do we deal with people who have appeared to be more or less inactive in the team for an extended period - namely, jackson and micah 20:57 knome: I would say that the 6 month ish thing should affect that 20:57 i think it's fair for the future of the project and others involved that inactive members do not affect the council election at least 20:57 unless they (plan to) become active again 20:57 the strategy document states that if anyone is away for more than a cycle he/she gets removed from team 20:58 but first step for anything here should be reaching out to them to talk about their involvement 20:58 slickymaster: yeah, in practice we didnt execute it that strict (as i implied on the ML), i usually got in contact with team members and discussed before removing anyone 20:58 ochosi++ 20:58 "nyone with no contributions for more than a complete cycle (6 months) should deactivate themself from the team as well as all subteams and reapply if/when they are willing to rejoin. The team administrators should purge people with no contributions in more than 6 months from the teams occasionally." 20:58 which is fair ochosi 20:58 pleia2: how much more reaching out - the discussion has been on either team mail or -devel 20:58 yeah, i kind of agree with flocculant 20:59 flocculant: a direct friendly email 20:59 i mean i can send out one last email 20:59 it doesn't hurt too much 20:59 ochosi, since you are the incumbent XPL, i'd appreciate if you did that 20:59 but knome's point is different i guess, cause it would imply that even if they plan to contribute again they would not be able to vote 20:59 ok 21:00 so 21:00 ochosi, well there are two things i'm after: 21:00 knome: yeah sure, if we reach the conclusion that this is what we wanna do, i'm gonna send the mail 21:00 how about ochosi do final mail, THEN we start the ACTION's ? 21:00 3 weeks 21:00 s/mail/mails/ 21:00 ochosi, if they plan to be active again, then they can be nominated or nominate themself 21:00 ochosi, whether they get elected is a different thing 21:00 ochosi, and the other thing is that if you suddenly start being active before the vote, sure you can vote 21:00 flocculant: no, i wouldn't postpone the vote tbh 21:01 flocculant, my first mail and ochosi's mails can happen paralllel 21:01 ok 21:01 just being soft :p 21:01 * flocculant is happy with that 21:01 ochosi, so as long as you send the mails today or tomorrow, they have a week to react to your mail and at the same time, my mail 21:01 proposal: i send out an email to micah and jackson asking them whether they plan to continue being part of the team and contributing since we're about to have this important vote and if not i would kindly ask them to lay down their membership and abstain from voting 21:02 ochosi, and we can either keep them or dump them just before the vote 21:02 yeah 21:02 well no need to mention abstain from voting - that's implied with "leave the team" 21:02 and i don't want to leave the impression they can stay in the team if they simply abstain from the voting :P 21:02 pleia2, Unit193: thoughts? 21:02 slickymaster: ^^ 21:03 ochosi: that's fine 21:04 the best plan in my pov is ochosi mail them tomorrow and give them one week to decide until knome's mail 21:04 ochosi, i'll make sure i don't send the vote email before at least 2 weeks (literally by the minute) has passed since the first mail 21:04 slickymaster, i'm going to send two mails 21:04 slickymaster, the first one is a reminder to take part in the discussion; the other is "voting starts now" 21:04 slickymaster: not sure I'd agree *assuming* knome and ochosi mail in parallel 21:04 I was referring to your first mail, knome 21:04 AND 21:05 nothing here is actually new 21:05 no it isn't 21:05 slickymaster, why would they need one week to think whether they want to comment on something? 21:05 slickymaster, as far as i'm concerned, they can comment and give feedback on the thread *ALREADY* 21:06 I don't see it as a decision period knome 21:06 more like a gracefull one 21:06 yeah, but they aren't declined any action 21:06 until one week 21:06 so they will have one week of decision period 21:06 same as the rest of us 21:07 note that the thread has been going on for one week 21:07 I know 21:07 the original team one almost 4 weeks 21:07 if they haven't seen it at all, then i don't think it's likely they will suddenly want to contribute 21:07 * slickymaster hasn't provided any input in that thread also 21:07 if they have seen it, but ignored it, they have got their thinking time 21:07 but will do this weekend 21:08 slickymaster, ultimately, we can't babysit everybody, so that's your loss ;) 21:08 slickymaster: but if you had major issues - would you still have not replied? 21:08 assuming you read them 21:08 I'd have flocculant 21:08 right 21:08 was going to do it this weekend anyway 21:08 :) 21:08 i think enough of us agree that we (me and ochosi) can send the first mails in parallel 21:08 s/anyway/either way 21:08 knome: ack 21:09 if either of them needs more thinking time, they can respond to ochosi saying they'd want to postpone the voting 21:09 which i think is very unlikely 21:09 yup, i think that's ok 21:09 we're flexible - we'll bend but not break 21:09 wkf 21:09 * wfm 21:09 ochosi, so just make sure your mail gets out before Sat 22:58 UTC 21:10 ochosi, you have about 26 hours 21:10 #action ochosi to send mail to micah and jackson about their membership and the upcoming council vote 21:10 * meetingology ochosi to send mail to micah and jackson about their membership and the upcoming council vote 21:10 thanks ochosi 21:10 let's move on? 21:10 pleia2: np :) 21:10 yeah, move on 21:10 #subtopic User Team Lead 21:11 flocculantyyyy 21:11 ok 21:12 so basically this is something I wanted to bring up - and is likely to take some time to sort out if we want to 21:12 but to start with, given we say we're a Community flavour 21:13 perhaps with the advent of Council we should spend some time thinking about a Team position for a User 'representative' 21:13 I've no real concrete proof this would help 21:13 not 21:13 s/not/nor 21:13 one question i have (which i haven't brought up yet) is that how much would the tasks the lead would take overlap with the tasks of the marketing lead? 21:13 any concrete idea about how to do this 21:14 knome: no 21:14 so my initial thinking is 21:14 I think a good first step would be noting out what we already do to interact with the community 21:14 once we have some 'rules' 21:14 we have a user mailing list, #xubuntu, and I interact with people a lot on social media (though not as much as I'd like, because I am spread thin) 21:14 i guess one of the main points (which i have also pointed out in the ML) is that the community representative would bring up the voice of the community 21:14 would be to let the whole of the LP user team vote on them 21:14 knome: yes 21:15 but what are the actionable items from that 21:15 or is it just floating everywhere and repeating what people say about xubuntu 21:15 I'm happy to spend some time working on this - assuming that we will actually do something positive at the end 21:15 knome: well 21:15 I don't know 21:16 one task that would overlap with the marketing lead at least is filling the "in press" page 21:16 it's rather nebulous 21:16 yeah, I feel like I do a lot of this already 21:16 pleia2: ok 21:16 because the things we link from there kind of is the content that lead would be looking after 21:16 but I'm happy to clarify exactly what I do in an etherpad 21:16 and where I need help :) 21:16 so if I was the community 'rep' I would be jumping up and down on the intel/suspend issue 21:17 pleia2, would you be fine to clarify that in a docbook format at some point (potentially) 21:17 there's no 'communal voice' 21:17 just disaprate groups saying things 21:17 right 21:17 another question is: 21:17 flocculant: to what end would you jump up and down on that? 21:17 I do try to speak up when issues come up and I've seen people talking about it on social media 21:17 would there be something that we are missing currently that the user lead would find out byt their actions? 21:18 but again, could use help keeping an eye on this 21:18 As far as "Community flavor", that means *we're* the community, the Xubuntu team. :P 21:18 if something affects many people, it'll show up on places like #xubuntu and the social media 21:18 but so far, nothing we didn't already know has been "trending" anywhere 21:18 Unit193: yes - but Xubuntu Users is part of that surely 21:18 so it leads me to ask whether there is anything else to "find" 21:19 who knows - do we ask? 21:19 ever? 21:19 we don't 21:19 for instance 21:19 and don't get me wrong - i'm not saying i'm against the idea 21:19 take the wallpaper for xenial 21:19 (just a sidenote, i really have to take off at 23:30 local time, which is in about 10mins, if you want to continue the meeting i can hand over the chair to someone else ofc) 21:20 ochosi: let's shuffle this on to m/l and move on 21:20 ochosi, you can #chair me if you want 21:20 because the 5 of us will go in circles 21:20 #chair ochosi knome 21:20 Current chairs: knome ochosi 21:20 or we can continue after the other discussion points 21:20 flocculant: I am interested in where you feel there are concerns here 21:20 because irc != ML 21:20 indeed 21:20 shuffle my last 2 forward while ochosi is here 21:20 k 21:21 so thunar and cursor bug? 21:21 the first will be quick :) 21:21 and skip the wiki part? 21:21 yea 21:21 alrihgt 21:21 yeah, can skip wiki 21:21 #subtopic Thunar 21:21 so 21:22 currently my problem is a carry on - but we're 2 months or so from .1 for 14.04 upgrades 21:22 we've got some patches - we still have bugs 21:22 will the pacthed thunar SRU to 16.04.1? 21:22 does thunar have the same crashes in 14.04 that it has in 16.04? 21:22 ochosi: don't believe so - they are more recent than that 21:23 yeah, what i thought 21:23 just wanted to make sure to not misunderstand your reference 21:23 the bigger question here though is if Thunar is not actively maintained we really need to seriously think about it's inclusion 21:23 so the question would actually go to bluesabre (and Unit193?) - afaik they were looking at packaging another patch for thunar 21:23 do we have a patched thunar that fixes the issues? 21:24 knome: not completely 21:24 i think it makes it less bad 21:24 :) 21:24 ochosi: I know you don't like the idea - neither do I - but I don't much like what we have either :) 21:24 can we start with that for .1? 21:24 knome: I can still crash thunar more at less at will 21:24 knome: yeah, i think that's the plan 21:24 flocculant, that's not my problem, my problem is that it'll crash without my will 21:24 ;) 21:25 what kind of resources could we gather for finding a patch that fixes the crashes completely? 21:25 * flocculant has the position that if maintenance is 'slow' then we should look to replacing it 21:25 do we know if it's thunar or glib or their combination? 21:25 it's changes in glib afaik 21:25 * flocculant also is completely aware that he can't help :( 21:25 i talked to hjudt about it when i met him some weeks ago 21:26 ochosi: ack - that's my understanding 21:26 ochosi, can you lock him in a basement? 21:26 generally speaking i'm against dropping thunar for two reasons: 1) we're replacing a core xfce/desktop component, which makes us less xfce and 2) we give less incentive to (actual and potential) thunar devs to fix the issue 21:26 I don't know that we need to take up more time tonight - I just wanted 'team' to be up to date 21:26 knome: i dont think so 21:26 yep, i'm leaning to ochosi's side 21:27 and also, the replacement should be really good.. 21:27 ochosi: I understand that - but if people start *shrugging* and moving on - what have we accomplished? 21:27 flocculant: ok if it was just an update does that mean we move to the cursor bug for the last 2mins? :) 21:27 ochosi: yep :D 21:28 well we have to motivate someone to dig into thunar 21:28 yea 21:28 that's basically it 21:28 anyway, let's move on 21:28 #subtopic Cursor bug 21:28 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-video-intel/+bug/1568604 21:28 Launchpad bug 1568604 in xserver-xorg-video-intel (Ubuntu) "Mouse cursor lost when unlocking with Intel graphics" [High,Confirmed] 21:28 i think i've hit that 21:28 yeah, that one is annoying and i've been seeing it too 21:28 and for me, moving the cursor in light-locker before logging in is a workaround 21:28 not much fun, thanks intel! 21:28 has the debbug as fix released, freedesktop as confirmed 21:28 heat is 722 21:29 so, a fix is landing for .1? 21:29 :P 21:29 anyone suspending with intel will hit it 21:29 i don't suspend 21:29 :P 21:29 but i guess the fix is a fix for both situations 21:29 I don't know - don't understand the relationships - which is why I wanted to bring it up 21:29 what relationship? 21:29 knome: actually /s/suspend/lock I think 21:29 flocculant, ...i don't lock 21:30 i just log in 21:30 ochosi: between this upstream issues and getting it down here? 21:30 like an update to the packages - so at least we can test it 21:30 another I understand ... 21:31 i guess our debian liaison can explain that :) 21:31 that it's not *us* but we are out there :D 21:31 Unit193: ^ 21:31 knome: then I don't know - and you're completely different than all the other reports 21:31