== Meeting information ==
 * #xubuntu-devel Meeting, 05 Jun at 12:30 — 13:29 UTC
 * Full logs at [[http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2015/xubuntu-devel.2015-06-05-12.30.log.html]]



== Meeting summary ==

=== Open action items ===
The discussion about "Open action items" started at 12:32.

  * ''DONE:'' xubuntu-dev to liase with -qa when specific package testing required

=== Team Updates ===
The discussion about "Team Updates" started at 12:34.

  * knome has been working on website content
  * milestone image testing dealt with

=== Announcements ===
The discussion about "Announcements" started at 12:36.


=== Discussion ===
The discussion about "Discussion" started at 12:38.

 * '''Rebooting the FAQ articles''' (12:38)
  * ''ACTION:'' knome to follow-up on the FAQ reboot on ML
 * '''Discuss blueprints and plans for 15.10''' (12:42)
  * ''ACTION:'' ochosi to follow up with team leads re blueprints as needed
 * '''Core as image''' (12:44)
 * '''Discuss Xubuntu's position on CSD (client side decorations)''' (12:58)

=== Schedule next meeting ===
The discussion about "Schedule next meeting" started at 13:29.




== Vote results ==




== Action items, by person ==

 * knome
  * knome to follow-up on the FAQ reboot on ML
 * ochosi
  * ochosi to follow up with team leads re blueprints as needed



== Done items ==

 * xubuntu-dev to liase with -qa when specific package testing required



== People present (lines said) ==

 * ochosi (93)
 * elfy (79)
 * knome (71)
 * meetingology (6)
 * dkessel (5)



== Full Log ==


 12:30 <elfy> #startmeeting

 12:30 <meetingology> Meeting started Fri Jun  5 12:30:11 2015 UTC.  The chair is elfy. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.

 12:30 <meetingology> 

 12:30 <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick

 12:30 <elfy> I'll hang about for a minute or two to see if anyone turns up ...

 12:30 <knome> well i'm here..

 12:31 <dkessel> o/

 12:32 <elfy> so am I knome :)

 12:32 <knome> hei dkessel

 12:32 <dkessel> hej knome

 12:32 <elfy> hi dkessel

 12:32 <dkessel> hey elfy

 12:32 <elfy> #topic Open action items

 12:33 <knome> none i guess

 12:33 <elfy> this is easy as pie - only one to look at and that's -dev and -qa and I've got to assume that bluesabre and ochosi will ask

 12:33 <knome> oh there is one..

 12:33 <knome> yep

 12:34 <elfy> and Unit193 and Noskcaj and micahg

 12:34 <elfy> #done xubuntu-dev to liase with -qa when specific package testing required

 12:34 <elfy> meh

 12:34 <knome> heh

 12:34 <elfy> #topic Team Updates

 12:35 <elfy> anything from you knome ?

 12:35 <knome> #info knome has been working on website content

 12:35 <knome> that's all

 12:35 <elfy> #info milestone image testing dealt with

 12:36 <elfy> that's all

 12:36 <elfy> move along I guess

 12:36 <elfy> #topic Announcements

 12:37 <elfy> nothing that I'm aware of

 12:38 <elfy> #topic Discussion

 12:38 <elfy> #subtopic Rebooting the FAQ articles

 12:38 <elfy> knome: that's your item

 12:38 <elfy> anything happened with that recently?

 12:40 <elfy> guessing not then ...

 12:40 <knome> nope, but the work continues

 12:40 <elfy> :)

 12:40 <knome> sorry, i'm in a flu and have my other nostril dripping blood more or less consistently...

 12:40 <elfy> so people are doing that?

 12:40 <elfy> :|

 12:40 <knome> we'll do at least something

 12:41 <knome> at least bluesabre said he could write something

 12:41 <knome> if not else, i guess i'll push the "back to the basics" series forward

 12:41 <elfy> ok - so any need for us to revisit this each meeting still ?

 12:41 <knome> likely not

 12:41 <elfy> or take it to mailing lists when needed or something

 12:41 <knome> i'll just send a follow-up to the ML at some point

 12:41 <knome> yep

 12:41 <elfy> ack

 12:42 <knome> #action knome to follow-up on the FAQ reboot on ML

 12:42 * meetingology knome to follow-up on the FAQ reboot on ML

 12:42 <elfy> #subtopic Discuss blueprints and plans for 15.10

 12:42 <knome> heh

 12:43 <elfy> which is ochosi's bag afaik - pretty sure the blueprints are being/been sorted

 12:43 <knome> looks like it

 12:43 <elfy> yep

 12:44 <dkessel> definately

 12:44 <elfy> #action ochosi to follow up with team leads re blueprints as needed

 12:44 * meetingology ochosi to follow up with team leads re blueprints as needed

 12:44 <elfy> #subtopic Core as image

 12:44 <elfy> I put this on here expecting to set a time that bluesabre was here -which was fail :)

 12:45 <elfy> personally my view is that it'd be nice to do that - maybe aim for the next cycle proper - which would be even nicer

 12:46 <elfy> as far as QA goes - if we do that, then QA would do what is necessary for that

 12:46 <elfy> not got anything else to say on that though

 12:47 <elfy> anyone else got anything to say on that?

 12:48 <knome> yep

 12:48 <knome> what you say sounds good

 12:50 <elfy> anymore - if not I'll move along

 12:51 <ochosi> o/

 12:51 <ochosi> sorry for being late

 12:51 <elfy> hi ochosi

 12:52 <elfy> ochosi: anything you want to bring up?

 12:52 <ochosi> had an important call

 12:52 <ochosi> i'll quickly catch up backlog wise, 1min

 12:53 <elfy> okey doke

 12:53 <ochosi> i'm surprised there were no team updates so far

 12:54 <elfy> not much to be said QA wise atm

 12:54 <ochosi> knome: what about the website content restructuring? (i mean sure, it's on the ML, but still)

 12:54 <ochosi> elfy: what about not using the tracker this cycle?

 12:54 <ochosi> or has that previously been discussed/announced in a meeting?

 12:55 <elfy> yea - that came up previously

 12:55 <elfy> the draft mail is following up

 12:55 <ochosi> mkay

 12:55 <knome> ochosi, what about that?

 12:56 <ochosi> knome: well i dunno, what are team updates about if not e.g. that?

 12:56 <elfy> ochosi: on the 12th May

 12:56 <knome> ochosi, i did the update

 12:56 <knome> "working with website content"

 12:56 * ochosi facepalms

 12:56 <ochosi> sorry, overread that

 12:56 <knome> np

 12:56 <elfy> :)

 12:56 <ochosi> guess i should've taken 1min30sec to read the backlog instead of just 1min

 12:57 <knome> lol

 12:57 <elfy> ha ha ha

 12:57 <ochosi> anyhoo, there is a discussion item i wanted to bring up quickly

 12:57 <elfy> #chair ochosi

 12:57 <meetingology> Current chairs: elfy ochosi

 12:57 <ochosi> we won't finish today, but i would like to hear both your opinions (at least)

 12:57 <elfy> then you can topic it

 12:57 <elfy> (unless you can without chair ... )

 12:58 <ochosi> #subtopic Discuss Xubuntu's position on CSD (client side decorations)

 12:58 <knome> can't

 12:58 <elfy> knome: ty

 12:58 <ochosi> sooo

 12:58 <ochosi> so far, we've tried to get ubuntu's patches to work for xubuntu as well, which means our apps look like before

 12:58 <ochosi> btw, are we all clear on what CSD is?

 12:58 <elfy> not completely ...

 12:59 <ochosi> ok, in vivid/wily, open the calculator

 12:59 <knome> maybe you should post reference for reference

 12:59 <ochosi> that's CSD

 12:59 <ochosi> so not using a traditional window decoration

 12:59 <ochosi> but one that looks like a toolbar with window controls

 12:59 <elfy> aah - ok - got that

 13:00 <ochosi> ok

 13:00 <ochosi> so basically the ubuntu desktop devs decided to patch that out in their default apps

 13:00 <ochosi> and since xfce didn't support it well at the time (well, that was the main technical reason) we went along and asked this to be patched out for us too

 13:00 <ochosi> however, that has changed, xfce supports it quite well now

 13:01 <ochosi> and it could be that the ubuntu desktop team decides any cycle to revert those patches and to use the apps with CSD in unity

 13:01 <ochosi> so the question is: are we proactive about this and consider reverting the patches for us?

 13:02 <elfy> reverting ends up with us looking like what?

 13:02 <knome> there's obviously two sides to this

 13:02 <ochosi> or do we think CSD is not easy enough to use etc. so we wanna keep those patches as long as possible

 13:02 <ochosi> or look for alternatives

 13:02 <ochosi> elfy: i'll quickly look for screenshots, one sec

 13:02 <ochosi> but it depends on the app a bit

 13:02 <knome> using what the app provides (CSD) and no need to maintain patches

 13:02 <knome> or

 13:02 <knome> patching them out and keeping consistency and configurability to user

 13:03 <ochosi> 1) "old" calculator: http://screenshots.ubuntu.com/screenshots/g/gcalctool/5112_large.png

 13:03 <knome> i don't think you can affect much how the CSD stuff is laid out

 13:03 <knome> i mean, in which order you have the window controls etc

 13:03 <knome> or can you?

 13:03 <elfy> ochosi: ok - as I assumed, they'd look like they used to

 13:03 <knome> at least the minimize icon is different too than in greybird xfwm

 13:03 <ochosi> 2) CSD calculator: http://i.imgur.com/oM3v65q.png

 13:04 <ochosi> knome: yeah, i'd have to work on that, but that can be fixed obviously

 13:04 <ochosi> btw, consistency yes, but configurability, not really

 13:04 <knome> well window button layout

 13:04 <ochosi> the amount of possible menuitems/options in an app doesn#t change with CSD

 13:05 <ochosi> no, xfwm4 supposedly syncs that now

 13:05 <knome> aha...

 13:05 <ochosi> so when you change you xfwm4 window button layout, your CSD layout changes too

 13:05 <elfy> aah right

 13:05 <ochosi> it's a simple gtk setting, exposed through xfce4-settings-editor (but auto-synced with xfwm4)

 13:05 <knome> right...

 13:05 <ochosi> so you can also override it

 13:05 <elfy> so I move the buttons about - my calc buttons are reversed to the screeny

 13:06 <knome> i guess if we can make the windows with CSD more like greybird..

 13:06 <ochosi> knome: yeah, the maximize and minimize would be adapted

 13:06 <knome> the CSD window borders are fat

 13:06 <ochosi> well, they're more than window borders

 13:06 <knome> and there's a lot of padding comparing to regular window borders

 13:06 <knome> sure

 13:06 <ochosi> because they hold lots of other buttons

 13:06 <ochosi> yeah, but if you lose menubar+toolbar, you still end up saving pixels

 13:06 <ochosi> (if that's a concern)

 13:07 <knome> size isn't, consistency is

 13:07 <knome> (from my POV)

 13:07 <ochosi> you mean "a concern"?

 13:07 <knome> yes

 13:07 <ochosi> yeah i agree

 13:07 <ochosi> but in the end that might mean that we have to look for alternative applications

 13:07 <ochosi> because this affects many of our default apps

 13:08 <ochosi> evince, calculator, simplescan, etcetc.

 13:08 <knome> yes, and surely, there's no guarantee they won't start using SCD too

 13:08 <ochosi> exactly

 13:08 <knome> i don't think it's sensible to replace those with new apps that are as good

 13:08 <ochosi> although Mate seems to dislike CSD, so we could try relying more on their apps

 13:08 <knome> sensible to think that we can*

 13:08 <ochosi> yeah, probably not

 13:08 <ochosi> i mean for instance with evince i'm *totally* happy

 13:09 <ochosi> and i've never heard a single complaint about it (so far)

 13:09 <ochosi> so i'd hate to replace that with something worse

 13:09 <knome> yep

 13:09 <knome> i don't like the menus in the window borders personally

 13:09 <knome> and another concern is how the menus look opened

 13:09 <ochosi> so anyway, i know this is a big topic, but we have to start thinking about this and discussing it

 13:09 <knome> that's not consistent either

 13:09 <ochosi> aha? which ones?

 13:10 <knome> well for example in calc

 13:10 <knome> open the "file" menu

 13:10 <knome> it has awful padding

 13:10 <ochosi> that can be tweaked

 13:10 <knome> it doesn't look bad, but it looks like it doesn't belong

 13:10 <ochosi> i just haven't spent much time on it

 13:11 <knome> yeah and sure, if we decided not to use CSD, then it would be more or less in vain

 13:13 <dkessel> how does one open such a CSD menu with the keyboard?

 13:14 <ochosi> knome: well we can keep it up as long as possible...

 13:14 <elfy> ochosi: so the options we have basically equate to keep it and hope for the best or proactively move away now

 13:15 <ochosi> elfy: yeah, that's my view on the subject at least (and i think to some extent bluesabre's)

 13:15 <elfy> given that I'm not sure that anyone is going to be up for fiddling about much in the *next* cycle

 13:15 <ochosi> dkessel: not sure, a11y might be another con of CSD

 13:15 <ochosi> elfy: yes, exactly why i felt i'd rather bring it up now

 13:16 <elfy> so - if we do end up having to do something, then wily would be the time

 13:16 <elfy> would be my position on it

 13:16 <ochosi> ok, but on CSD itself?

 13:16 <ochosi> (and yeah, i hope we can agree on what you said there)

 13:17 <elfy> ochosi: so on CSD - you want my opinion on whether to keep that or go *old-school* ?

 13:18 <ochosi> yup

 13:18 <ochosi> it could be that we have to vote on this in the end

 13:18 <ochosi> (just as an additional note)

 13:18 <ochosi> but i prefer to have a discussion beforehand

 13:18 <elfy> then I prefer not CSD - they always looks odd to me when there are other apps open that aren't CSD

 13:18 <ochosi> in a voting process there's often not enough time to thoroughly explain one's position

 13:18 <elfy> yea :)

 13:19 <ochosi> k

 13:19 <ochosi> btw, we can also proactively try to promote CSD and get consistency back that way

 13:19 <elfy> mmm

 13:19 <ochosi> we can even try to suggest improvements upstream (e.g. if there are a11y concerns)

 13:19 <ochosi> and obviously that also concerns xfce

 13:20 <elfy> yep

 13:20 <knome> some apps will never have CSD though

 13:20 <knome> ff,tb,lo

 13:20 <elfy> hard for me to  have opinions on this type of thing tbh - I just use whatever I use

 13:21 <ochosi> knome: yeah, possible

 13:21 <elfy> things have to be REALLY obvious for me to even notice ...

 13:21 <ochosi> elfy: that's ok (and good to know)

 13:21 <elfy> :)

 13:22 <ochosi> knome: although if more DEs use CSD then the incentive for those apps to support something like CSD might be higher

 13:22 <elfy> like the fact that calc looks odd to me - really obviously different

 13:22 <knome> well i don't know

 13:22 <ochosi> i mean FF already has that sort of menubutton to some extent

 13:22 <knome> what would they do with CSD?

 13:22 <knome> they still need to show a lot of menus and options

 13:22 <ochosi> combine tab bar and window controls

 13:22 <knome> that can't look natural in CSD

 13:22 <knome> yeah, that's ugly

 13:22 <ochosi> well look at chrome

 13:23 <knome> another reason i don't use chrome...

 13:23 <ochosi> it already does that for a while

 13:23 <ochosi> well, in chrome it's configurable

 13:24 <ochosi> either way, i could add another workitem to improve our CSD support so that max and min buttons look like greybird (amongst others)

 13:24 <knome> yep

 13:24 <knome> ++

 13:24 <ochosi> and we can continue the discussion another time

 13:24 <ochosi> this was just meant as a kickstart anyway

 13:24 <elfy> yep

 13:25 <elfy> that makes sense - perhaps start a list thread too with the main points

 13:25 <ochosi> yeah, ultimately that'll make sense

 13:25 <ochosi> but i'd prefer to discuss it a bit more with other team members before we take it to the list

 13:26 <ochosi> there might be other points (apart from visual consistency and the things i know about) that i might be missing

 13:26 <elfy> ochosi: yep - that makes sense too

 13:28 <ochosi> elfy: ok, from my pov you can move along with the meeting or finish it

 13:28 <elfy> ochosi: ok ty

 13:28 <ochosi> i have no other items i wanted to discuss

 13:28 <knome> any items you don't want to discuss?

 13:28 <knome> :P

 13:28 <elfy> heh

 13:29 <elfy> anymore for anymore?

 13:29 <knome> no, FINISH IT

 13:29 <elfy> #topic Schedule next meeting

 13:29 <elfy> action bluesabre to set next meeting

 13:29 <elfy> #endmeeting



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