12:30 <elfy> #startmeeting 12:30 <meetingology> Meeting started Fri Jun 5 12:30:11 2015 UTC. The chair is elfy. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. 12:30 <meetingology> 12:30 <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick 12:30 <elfy> I'll hang about for a minute or two to see if anyone turns up ... 12:30 <knome> well i'm here.. 12:31 <dkessel> o/ 12:32 <elfy> so am I knome :) 12:32 <knome> hei dkessel 12:32 <dkessel> hej knome 12:32 <elfy> hi dkessel 12:32 <dkessel> hey elfy 12:32 <elfy> #topic Open action items 12:33 <knome> none i guess 12:33 <elfy> this is easy as pie - only one to look at and that's -dev and -qa and I've got to assume that bluesabre and ochosi will ask 12:33 <knome> oh there is one.. 12:33 <knome> yep 12:34 <elfy> and Unit193 and Noskcaj and micahg 12:34 <elfy> #done xubuntu-dev to liase with -qa when specific package testing required 12:34 <elfy> meh 12:34 <knome> heh 12:34 <elfy> #topic Team Updates 12:35 <elfy> anything from you knome ? 12:35 <knome> #info knome has been working on website content 12:35 <knome> that's all 12:35 <elfy> #info milestone image testing dealt with 12:36 <elfy> that's all 12:36 <elfy> move along I guess 12:36 <elfy> #topic Announcements 12:37 <elfy> nothing that I'm aware of 12:38 <elfy> #topic Discussion 12:38 <elfy> #subtopic Rebooting the FAQ articles 12:38 <elfy> knome: that's your item 12:38 <elfy> anything happened with that recently? 12:40 <elfy> guessing not then ... 12:40 <knome> nope, but the work continues 12:40 <elfy> :) 12:40 <knome> sorry, i'm in a flu and have my other nostril dripping blood more or less consistently... 12:40 <elfy> so people are doing that? 12:40 <elfy> :| 12:40 <knome> we'll do at least something 12:41 <knome> at least bluesabre said he could write something 12:41 <knome> if not else, i guess i'll push the "back to the basics" series forward 12:41 <elfy> ok - so any need for us to revisit this each meeting still ? 12:41 <knome> likely not 12:41 <elfy> or take it to mailing lists when needed or something 12:41 <knome> i'll just send a follow-up to the ML at some point 12:41 <knome> yep 12:41 <elfy> ack 12:42 <knome> #action knome to follow-up on the FAQ reboot on ML 12:42 * meetingology knome to follow-up on the FAQ reboot on ML 12:42 <elfy> #subtopic Discuss blueprints and plans for 15.10 12:42 <knome> heh 12:43 <elfy> which is ochosi's bag afaik - pretty sure the blueprints are being/been sorted 12:43 <knome> looks like it 12:43 <elfy> yep 12:44 <dkessel> definately 12:44 <elfy> #action ochosi to follow up with team leads re blueprints as needed 12:44 * meetingology ochosi to follow up with team leads re blueprints as needed 12:44 <elfy> #subtopic Core as image 12:44 <elfy> I put this on here expecting to set a time that bluesabre was here -which was fail :) 12:45 <elfy> personally my view is that it'd be nice to do that - maybe aim for the next cycle proper - which would be even nicer 12:46 <elfy> as far as QA goes - if we do that, then QA would do what is necessary for that 12:46 <elfy> not got anything else to say on that though 12:47 <elfy> anyone else got anything to say on that? 12:48 <knome> yep 12:48 <knome> what you say sounds good 12:50 <elfy> anymore - if not I'll move along 12:51 <ochosi> o/ 12:51 <ochosi> sorry for being late 12:51 <elfy> hi ochosi 12:52 <elfy> ochosi: anything you want to bring up? 12:52 <ochosi> had an important call 12:52 <ochosi> i'll quickly catch up backlog wise, 1min 12:53 <elfy> okey doke 12:53 <ochosi> i'm surprised there were no team updates so far 12:54 <elfy> not much to be said QA wise atm 12:54 <ochosi> knome: what about the website content restructuring? (i mean sure, it's on the ML, but still) 12:54 <ochosi> elfy: what about not using the tracker this cycle? 12:54 <ochosi> or has that previously been discussed/announced in a meeting? 12:55 <elfy> yea - that came up previously 12:55 <elfy> the draft mail is following up 12:55 <ochosi> mkay 12:55 <knome> ochosi, what about that? 12:56 <ochosi> knome: well i dunno, what are team updates about if not e.g. that? 12:56 <elfy> ochosi: on the 12th May 12:56 <knome> ochosi, i did the update 12:56 <knome> "working with website content" 12:56 * ochosi facepalms 12:56 <ochosi> sorry, overread that 12:56 <knome> np 12:56 <elfy> :) 12:56 <ochosi> guess i should've taken 1min30sec to read the backlog instead of just 1min 12:57 <knome> lol 12:57 <elfy> ha ha ha 12:57 <ochosi> anyhoo, there is a discussion item i wanted to bring up quickly 12:57 <elfy> #chair ochosi 12:57 <meetingology> Current chairs: elfy ochosi 12:57 <ochosi> we won't finish today, but i would like to hear both your opinions (at least) 12:57 <elfy> then you can topic it 12:57 <elfy> (unless you can without chair ... ) 12:58 <ochosi> #subtopic Discuss Xubuntu's position on CSD (client side decorations) 12:58 <knome> can't 12:58 <elfy> knome: ty 12:58 <ochosi> sooo 12:58 <ochosi> so far, we've tried to get ubuntu's patches to work for xubuntu as well, which means our apps look like before 12:58 <ochosi> btw, are we all clear on what CSD is? 12:58 <elfy> not completely ... 12:59 <ochosi> ok, in vivid/wily, open the calculator 12:59 <knome> maybe you should post reference for reference 12:59 <ochosi> that's CSD 12:59 <ochosi> so not using a traditional window decoration 12:59 <ochosi> but one that looks like a toolbar with window controls 12:59 <elfy> aah - ok - got that 13:00 <ochosi> ok 13:00 <ochosi> so basically the ubuntu desktop devs decided to patch that out in their default apps 13:00 <ochosi> and since xfce didn't support it well at the time (well, that was the main technical reason) we went along and asked this to be patched out for us too 13:00 <ochosi> however, that has changed, xfce supports it quite well now 13:01 <ochosi> and it could be that the ubuntu desktop team decides any cycle to revert those patches and to use the apps with CSD in unity 13:01 <ochosi> so the question is: are we proactive about this and consider reverting the patches for us? 13:02 <elfy> reverting ends up with us looking like what? 13:02 <knome> there's obviously two sides to this 13:02 <ochosi> or do we think CSD is not easy enough to use etc. so we wanna keep those patches as long as possible 13:02 <ochosi> or look for alternatives 13:02 <ochosi> elfy: i'll quickly look for screenshots, one sec 13:02 <ochosi> but it depends on the app a bit 13:02 <knome> using what the app provides (CSD) and no need to maintain patches 13:02 <knome> or 13:02 <knome> patching them out and keeping consistency and configurability to user 13:03 <ochosi> 1) "old" calculator: http://screenshots.ubuntu.com/screenshots/g/gcalctool/5112_large.png 13:03 <knome> i don't think you can affect much how the CSD stuff is laid out 13:03 <knome> i mean, in which order you have the window controls etc 13:03 <knome> or can you? 13:03 <elfy> ochosi: ok - as I assumed, they'd look like they used to 13:03 <knome> at least the minimize icon is different too than in greybird xfwm 13:03 <ochosi> 2) CSD calculator: http://i.imgur.com/oM3v65q.png 13:04 <ochosi> knome: yeah, i'd have to work on that, but that can be fixed obviously 13:04 <ochosi> btw, consistency yes, but configurability, not really 13:04 <knome> well window button layout 13:04 <ochosi> the amount of possible menuitems/options in an app doesn#t change with CSD 13:05 <ochosi> no, xfwm4 supposedly syncs that now 13:05 <knome> aha... 13:05 <ochosi> so when you change you xfwm4 window button layout, your CSD layout changes too 13:05 <elfy> aah right 13:05 <ochosi> it's a simple gtk setting, exposed through xfce4-settings-editor (but auto-synced with xfwm4) 13:05 <knome> right... 13:05 <ochosi> so you can also override it 13:05 <elfy> so I move the buttons about - my calc buttons are reversed to the screeny 13:06 <knome> i guess if we can make the windows with CSD more like greybird.. 13:06 <ochosi> knome: yeah, the maximize and minimize would be adapted 13:06 <knome> the CSD window borders are fat 13:06 <ochosi> well, they're more than window borders 13:06 <knome> and there's a lot of padding comparing to regular window borders 13:06 <knome> sure 13:06 <ochosi> because they hold lots of other buttons 13:06 <ochosi> yeah, but if you lose menubar+toolbar, you still end up saving pixels 13:06 <ochosi> (if that's a concern) 13:07 <knome> size isn't, consistency is 13:07 <knome> (from my POV) 13:07 <ochosi> you mean "a concern"? 13:07 <knome> yes 13:07 <ochosi> yeah i agree 13:07 <ochosi> but in the end that might mean that we have to look for alternative applications 13:07 <ochosi> because this affects many of our default apps 13:08 <ochosi> evince, calculator, simplescan, etcetc. 13:08 <knome> yes, and surely, there's no guarantee they won't start using SCD too 13:08 <ochosi> exactly 13:08 <knome> i don't think it's sensible to replace those with new apps that are as good 13:08 <ochosi> although Mate seems to dislike CSD, so we could try relying more on their apps 13:08 <knome> sensible to think that we can* 13:08 <ochosi> yeah, probably not 13:08 <ochosi> i mean for instance with evince i'm *totally* happy 13:09 <ochosi> and i've never heard a single complaint about it (so far) 13:09 <ochosi> so i'd hate to replace that with something worse 13:09 <knome> yep 13:09 <knome> i don't like the menus in the window borders personally 13:09 <knome> and another concern is how the menus look opened 13:09 <ochosi> so anyway, i know this is a big topic, but we have to start thinking about this and discussing it 13:09 <knome> that's not consistent either 13:09 <ochosi> aha? which ones? 13:10 <knome> well for example in calc 13:10 <knome> open the "file" menu 13:10 <knome> it has awful padding 13:10 <ochosi> that can be tweaked 13:10 <knome> it doesn't look bad, but it looks like it doesn't belong 13:10 <ochosi> i just haven't spent much time on it 13:11 <knome> yeah and sure, if we decided not to use CSD, then it would be more or less in vain 13:13 <dkessel> how does one open such a CSD menu with the keyboard? 13:14 <ochosi> knome: well we can keep it up as long as possible... 13:14 <elfy> ochosi: so the options we have basically equate to keep it and hope for the best or proactively move away now 13:15 <ochosi> elfy: yeah, that's my view on the subject at least (and i think to some extent bluesabre's) 13:15 <elfy> given that I'm not sure that anyone is going to be up for fiddling about much in the *next* cycle 13:15 <ochosi> dkessel: not sure, a11y might be another con of CSD 13:15 <ochosi> elfy: yes, exactly why i felt i'd rather bring it up now 13:16 <elfy> so - if we do end up having to do something, then wily would be the time 13:16 <elfy> would be my position on it 13:16 <ochosi> ok, but on CSD itself? 13:16 <ochosi> (and yeah, i hope we can agree on what you said there) 13:17 <elfy> ochosi: so on CSD - you want my opinion on whether to keep that or go *old-school* ? 13:18 <ochosi> yup 13:18 <ochosi> it could be that we have to vote on this in the end 13:18 <ochosi> (just as an additional note) 13:18 <ochosi> but i prefer to have a discussion beforehand 13:18 <elfy> then I prefer not CSD - they always looks odd to me when there are other apps open that aren't CSD 13:18 <ochosi> in a voting process there's often not enough time to thoroughly explain one's position 13:18 <elfy> yea :) 13:19 <ochosi> k 13:19 <ochosi> btw, we can also proactively try to promote CSD and get consistency back that way 13:19 <elfy> mmm 13:19 <ochosi> we can even try to suggest improvements upstream (e.g. if there are a11y concerns) 13:19 <ochosi> and obviously that also concerns xfce 13:20 <elfy> yep 13:20 <knome> some apps will never have CSD though 13:20 <knome> ff,tb,lo 13:20 <elfy> hard for me to have opinions on this type of thing tbh - I just use whatever I use 13:21 <ochosi> knome: yeah, possible 13:21 <elfy> things have to be REALLY obvious for me to even notice ... 13:21 <ochosi> elfy: that's ok (and good to know) 13:21 <elfy> :) 13:22 <ochosi> knome: although if more DEs use CSD then the incentive for those apps to support something like CSD might be higher 13:22 <elfy> like the fact that calc looks odd to me - really obviously different 13:22 <knome> well i don't know 13:22 <ochosi> i mean FF already has that sort of menubutton to some extent 13:22 <knome> what would they do with CSD? 13:22 <knome> they still need to show a lot of menus and options 13:22 <ochosi> combine tab bar and window controls 13:22 <knome> that can't look natural in CSD 13:22 <knome> yeah, that's ugly 13:22 <ochosi> well look at chrome 13:23 <knome> another reason i don't use chrome... 13:23 <ochosi> it already does that for a while 13:23 <ochosi> well, in chrome it's configurable 13:24 <ochosi> either way, i could add another workitem to improve our CSD support so that max and min buttons look like greybird (amongst others) 13:24 <knome> yep 13:24 <knome> ++ 13:24 <ochosi> and we can continue the discussion another time 13:24 <ochosi> this was just meant as a kickstart anyway 13:24 <elfy> yep 13:25 <elfy> that makes sense - perhaps start a list thread too with the main points 13:25 <ochosi> yeah, ultimately that'll make sense 13:25 <ochosi> but i'd prefer to discuss it a bit more with other team members before we take it to the list 13:26 <ochosi> there might be other points (apart from visual consistency and the things i know about) that i might be missing 13:26 <elfy> ochosi: yep - that makes sense too 13:28 <ochosi> elfy: ok, from my pov you can move along with the meeting or finish it 13:28 <elfy> ochosi: ok ty 13:28 <ochosi> i have no other items i wanted to discuss 13:28 <knome> any items you don't want to discuss? 13:28 <knome> :P 13:28 <elfy> heh 13:29 <elfy> anymore for anymore? 13:29 <knome> no, FINISH IT 13:29 <elfy> #topic Schedule next meeting 13:29 <elfy> action bluesabre to set next meeting 13:29 <elfy> #endmeeting