== Meeting information == * #xubuntu-devel: Xubuntu meeting: Xfce 4.11 components in 14.04 and more, 03 Nov at 22:39 — 23:32 UTC * Full logs at [[http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-11-03-22.39.log.html]] == Meeting summary == === Cherry-picking Xfce 4.11 components === The discussion about "Cherry-picking Xfce 4.11 components" started at 22:40. * New Xfce 4.11 features to be dropped into 14.04: GTK3 indicator support, new xfdesktop release * Xfce 4.12 will be backported to Trusty if enough testing resources are available * ''LINK:'' https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9963 * Xfce power manager doesn't support systemd; we want a patch for that if at all possible * ''ACTION:'' team to investigate patching xfce4-power-manager or finding alternatives * it would be great if users could help wth translations for light-locker here: https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/light-locker/ * for info or assistance on the translations (about 10 strings) or transifex, feel free to ping ochosi on freenode.org * Other new components to drop for 14.04: light-locker, MenuLibre, Mugshot * ''ACTION:'' micahg to talk to barry about python2.7/3 situation * ''ACTION:'' micahg to upload whiskermenu to xfce PPAs * ''LINK:'' https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Trusty/CommunityWallpapers * ''ACTION:'' ochosi announces the community wallpapers project on the mailing list == Vote results == == Action items == * team to investigate patching xfce4-power-manager or finding alternatives * micahg to talk to barry about python2.7/3 situation * micahg to upload whiskermenu to xfce PPAs * ochosi announces the community wallpapers project on the mailing list == Action items, by person == * micahg * micahg to talk to barry about python2.7/3 situation * micahg to upload whiskermenu to xfce PPAs * ochosi * ochosi announces the community wallpapers project on the mailing list * team * team to investigate patching xfce4-power-manager or finding alternatives == People present (lines said) == * knome (102) * ochosi (79) * micahg-work (36) * bluesabre (29) * brainwash (20) * skellat (11) * Noskcaj-school (9) * meetingology (7) * elfy (6) * pleia2 (6) * lderan (4) * ubottu (3) * eric_the_idiot (1) * micahg (0) * team (0) == Full Log == 22:39 #startmeeting Xubuntu meeting: Xfce 4.11 components in 14.04 and more 22:39 Meeting started Sun Nov 3 22:39:21 2013 UTC. The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. 22:39 22:39 Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired 22:40 whiskermenu 1.2 has just been released, it will be ready for upload this week. 22:40 #topic Cherry-picking Xfce 4.11 components 22:40 ok 22:40 so, 22:40 just arrived 22:41 let me start with what i think 22:41 we should keep the 4.11 components we have in 13.10 22:41 ping eric_the_idiot 22:41 in addition, we should drop the gtk3 indicators patch into 14.04 22:41 +1 22:41 ochosi, pong 22:41 as well as the new xfdesktop features 22:42 +1, but try and backport some of the patches from settings 4.11.1 22:42 Nearlky everything else needs the new xfce4ui 22:42 *nearly 22:42 we can discuss backporting/SRUing gtk3 indicators to 13.10, but that's not a high-priority, i would say medium 22:42 +1 22:42 to knome 22:43 the reason why i additionally want the xfdesktop features in is that they will make it easier for the user to control their wallpapers 22:43 1) they allow setting a specific dir to look for wallpapers instead of the system-wide one 22:43 we already have that though, right? I wasn't talking about going backwards 22:43 yeah, and it goes hand-in-hand with the new display-dialog (helps ppl to set their wallpapers per display) 22:44 no, i don't think we have that 22:44 yeah, we don't 22:44 so the new-new thing for 14.04 would be: gtk3 indicators and new xfdesktop release 22:44 and i will personally promise i will organize enough testing for them 22:44 read that ;) 22:45 if not else, i'll make my mum test it. 22:45 If we can squash LP Bug 1208204 via backports that may help with perception issues we have about 13.10 22:45 Launchpad bug 1208204 in indicator-sound (Ubuntu) "indicator-sound no longer functions with xfce4-indicator-plugin" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1208204 22:45 Which would require the GTK3 things 22:45 well, as long as xfdesktop doesn't risk LTS -> LTS upgrades or has major dependencies, I'm fine with that 22:45 skellat: yeah, or some less intrusive fix, not sure whether it's possible. ali1234? 22:46 the uproar about the broken sound indicator is now almost gone anyway :) 22:46 micahg-work, as ochosi said, xfdesktop should take care of the migration itself 22:46 eric_the_idiot: any upgrade issues you can see? 22:46 well, at the very least, we can throw it in backports 22:46 if there's demand (GTK3 indicators) 22:46 xfwm might be worth investigating, vsync is a good thing to have. But i'm not sure how stable it is 22:46 I just need the testing 22:46 what about the new xfwm4 release with vsync support? 22:46 Noskcaj-school: :D 22:46 the focues should be getting 14.04 in a *good* shape 22:46 :) 22:46 brainwash: that's the same with every release, that's one reason why you get more relaxed with each release... 22:46 and with that, telling people to try to get along until that is released... 22:47 knome: +1 22:47 we can of course write a blog article with updates on the most irritating bugs 22:47 and their workarounds 22:47 and if we have time, backports 22:47 let's hope not too many... 22:47 im back 22:48 wb bluesabre 22:48 ochosi, i'm referring to things we already know, pretty much the release notes mentioned bugs 22:48 there hasn't been too many new things after that 22:48 knome: yeah, we should knock those down. i'll mention one more thing that's looming ahead a bit later... 22:48 go ahead 22:49 I'd be for backporting 4.12 to trusty-backports assuming we can get sufficient reverse dependency testing 22:50 yes, considering 4.12 is released during the trusty support period... 22:50 well the logind transition leaves us with a borked xfce4-powerman 22:50 bah.. 22:50 haha 22:50 okay, that's stupid. 22:50 And Lennart Poettering is talking about breaking logind again 22:51 we should fix that. 22:51 xfce4-powerman doesn't support logind at all 22:51 ochosi, we can hopefully come up with a patch for that 22:51 micahg-work: "we" = who? 22:51 let me do some #infos 22:51 someone should be able to 22:51 bug 1222021 22:51 bug 1222021 in xfce4-power-manager (Ubuntu) "xfce4-power-manager does not inhibit systemd from handling buttons and lid events" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1222021 22:51 well, is upstream planning to solve that? 22:51 yeah, the open question is *who* 22:51 Is there a way to get rid of logind as a dependency for us in the mix? 22:51 not in time for 14.04 i think 22:52 #info New Xfce 4.11 features to be dropped into 14.04: GTK3 indicator support, new xfdesktop release 22:52 I think we'd be better off writing the patch... 22:52 the patch does already exist 22:52 a working one? 22:52 yes, that sounds like a good idea and a justifiable use of time 22:53 micahg-work: didn't test it yet 22:53 well, if it works, let's get upstream to approve it, then we can move forward 22:53 #info Xfce 4.12 will be backported to Trusty if enough testing resources are available 22:53 * bluesabre equips testing hat 22:54 * pleia2 as well 22:54 micahg-work: the powerman isnt actively developed upstream, not sure we'd get much feedback 22:54 and systemd is a *hot* topic (as in: flamey) 22:54 ochosi, is there a suggested replacement? is that something we need to either pick up development for or find an alternative? 22:54 ochosi: Mark Shuttleworth and Lennart Poettering have been arguing repeatedly on Google Plus about it 22:54 there is even a patch for xfce4-powerman to use logind directly instead of upower for suspend/hibernate 22:54 https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9963 22:54 #info Xfce power manager doesn't support systemd; we want a patch for that if at all possible 22:55 bugzilla.xfce.org bug 9963 in General "upower is no longer doing suspend/hibernate, switch to logind" [Normal,New] 22:55 skellat: i know 22:55 skellat: and it doesnt help... 22:55 micahg-work, there is always gnome-power-manager, but it isn't too long since we switched away from that... 22:55 #nick team 22:55 micahg-work: no, but i'm just saying looking at how xfce is moving along upstream, i think they'll be cautious about new depends/recommends 22:56 #action team to investigate patching xfce4-power-manager or finding alternatives 22:56 * meetingology team to investigate patching xfce4-power-manager or finding alternatives 22:56 i think the alternative is an easy UI for systemd/logind 22:56 I'm for corsac's suggestion of runtime support for it 22:56 for what's currently stored in /etc/systemd/logind.conf 22:56 and dropping xfce4-powerman 22:56 ochosi: why not re-use xfce4-powerman :P 22:57 and using e.g. indicator-power 22:57 or some other applet to display battery status 22:57 brainwash: no reason against that, apart from not having any upstream maintainer/dev 22:57 does xfce4-powerman handle screen-blanking, or is that something else? 22:57 ochosi: we could always adopt yet another forgotten project :D 22:58 if indicator-power will do what we need, then that's fine, otherwise, maybe we can pick up maintenance of xfce4-powerman together with corsac? I'd hate to reinvent the wheel 22:58 bluesabre: theoretically yes, but i think xscreensaver does that now 22:58 it's X, powerman just sets the parameters 22:58 but aren't we wanting to move away from xscreensaver? 22:58 yes... 22:58 bluesabre: yes, if we are, then this would be a solution: 22:58 i think we should move away from xscreensaver in favor of light-locker 22:58 fine by me, should be quite a bit lighter as well 22:58 I agree, and I think ubuntu is heading that direction as well based on their interest 22:58 micahg-work: I think so too, the patches do exist already and could be extended if needed 22:59 1) use light-locker 2) use X11's screensaver-extension to blank the screen 3) use a logind/X11-screensaver ext dialog (we'd have to write that) to control it 22:59 micahg-work, and it would be a shame to throw out all the work we've done to get to this point! 22:59 and yeah, ubuntu wants light-locker as well 22:59 fwiw, light-locker has already been uploaded to trusty 22:59 was micahg CC'd/TO'd in that email? 23:00 i've talked to the uploader, but it hasn't been decided yet whether it'll be default afaik 23:00 ochosi, since they seemed very interested about it, we should try to collaborate with them 23:00 those processes aren't extremely transparent tbh 23:00 yeah, i agree 23:00 ochosi, or at least try to change information and track the progress 23:00 we've recently set up a translation portal for light-locker btw ;) 23:00 yay 23:01 i can #info that later if you want 23:01 well, if Ubuntu doesn't move to it by default, I don't know that we want to be the pioneers in an LTS 23:01 the lubuntu guys would love to use light-locker :) 23:01 hihi 23:01 evil comment, brainwash 23:01 sure, and #info stuff about collaborating too as appropriate 23:01 hehe 23:01 micahg-work, well, same as with 4.11 components; i'd really like that in and i will organize enough testing. 23:02 micahg-work, so please let's move forward with it and only not do it if it looks like it's going to be broken... 23:02 #info it would be great if users could help wth translations for light-locker here: https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/light-locker/ 23:02 micahg-work, again, it's one of those things that we have prepared almost since the last LTS... 23:02 knome, ? we're responsible for the xfce components in the LTS, so our testing/fixing suffices, I'd rather us not be responsible for light-locker as well if we can avoid it 23:03 #info for info or assistance on the translations (about 10 strings) or transifex, feel free to ping ochosi on freenode.org 23:03 micahg-work, i understand that. and yes, i would like to avoid being responsible for that as well, but i don't think the fear of having to maintain should be the reason keeping us from using it. 23:03 oh, I thought light-locker was created by Canonical, if it's an Xfce component, that's fine 23:04 it's neither 23:04 that 23:04 but it's something ochosi and bluesabre are familiar with 23:04 it was created by me and cavalier (an xfce-dev) 23:04 oh, then, by all means :) 23:04 or at least ochosi :P 23:04 great! 23:04 is it in Debian yet 23:04 but canonical are looking into picking it up by default 23:04 which would be totally awesome 23:04 micahg-work, while we are at that, i want mugshot and menulibre in the seed for 14.04 as well. :) 23:05 micahg-work, they are not core components, and they are by bluesabre, who will hopefully have uploading rights by the release of 14.04 23:05 micahg-work: i haven't done any extra communication on that at all, but from what i read there was a proposal a while ago 23:05 I'll get both of those in debian soon 23:05 ok, I can't do much for the next 2 weeks, after that, I'll have more time again for Xubuntu 23:05 working on the alacarte-replacing rewrite for menulibre 23:06 #info Other new components to drop for 14.04: light-locker, MenuLibre, Mugshot 23:06 mugshot needs an update and then I'll try to get it in debian again 23:06 was that everything that was mentioned? 23:06 menulibre should also make us a bit lighter 23:06 yep 23:06 and mugshot should make us user-friendlier 23:06 ++ 23:06 micahg-work, what about python 2/3? 23:07 sounds like this'll be an awesome LTS 23:07 yes, that's the plan... 23:07 that's the evil plan i've been carrying around since 12.10 23:07 you never would have guessed that! HA! 23:07 knome, it would be nice to move to python3 only, but I"m more concerned about stability than that since we have only 3 years of support 23:07 micahg-work, sure, just asking as it was mentioned in the roadmap brainstorming 23:08 now that we have a bigger ISO it's not a showkiller. 23:08 right 23:08 bigger ISO... mmh, libreoffice :) 23:08 ochosi, did you want to talk about whiskermenu? 23:08 noooooooOOO!!!!!!!!!!!! 23:09 yeah, good point 23:09 oh btw, 23:09 whiskermenu would be a nice addon and replacement for our current menu 23:09 ubuntu lately changed their system requirements to 1GB of memory 23:09 so we are now well under 23:09 it's really fast and lightweight, i've tested it for a while, it adds search-capability to the menu (sweet!) 23:09 and it's far more customizable than the integrated menu 23:10 how does menulibre work with those menus? 23:10 bluesabre: ^ 23:10 or, in other words, how useful is menulibre for a user using whiskermenu 23:10 same 23:10 whiskermenu is a searchable xfce menu 23:10 same thing, different interface 23:10 okay 23:11 so when I fix menulibre, it will work fine with either 23:11 we could bind it to a kb-shortcut 23:11 e.g. super+space 23:11 so users could quickly bring it up to launch apps 23:11 isn't it alt+esc right now? 23:11 (just as a more understandable and visually integrated alternative to xfce4-appfinder) 23:11 ctrl+esc I mean 23:12 (although appfinder is atm still more powerful with custom commands) 23:12 brainwash: well, up to us to decide i think, mine was just a suggestion 23:12 ochosi, would you be willing to put up some kind of spec for the proposed whiskermenu integration with some highlights and screenshots why it would be so awesome, as well as talking a bit about the panel layout (with possibly a finalish proposal on that), ideally before thursday? 23:13 knome: in general yes, before thursday is not realistic (PM) 23:13 well the deadline for finalizing specs is november 21 23:13 ochosi: could you talk to mrpouit and get whiskermenu in the xfce-4.10 and/or xfce-4.12 ppa? 23:14 but would be good to have *something* on that before thu, since we're discussing and approving most of the roadmap then 23:14 bluesabre: Is it in on the Debian side? 23:14 bluesabre: i think there's already a PPA (give me a sec) 23:14 knome, FWIW, I'll talk to barry, if there are plans to drop python2.7 to universe, I'd be much more encouraged to port to python3 23:14 micahg-work, oki 23:14 #nick micahg 23:14 bluesabre, I could probably upload that 23:14 skellat, I believe it is in debian now, will check 23:14 woo for pyton 3 23:14 python* 23:14 #action micahg to talk to barry about python2.7/3 situation 23:14 * meetingology micahg to talk to barry about python2.7/3 situation 23:14 micahg-work, sweet 23:15 bluesabre, remind me in a couple days 23:15 will do, thanks micahg-work 23:15 bluesabre: packages.d.o doesn't show it 23:15 skellat: http://ftp-master.debian.org/new/xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin_1.1.1-1.html 23:15 bluesabre, micahg-work: you can do #action items if you want reminders. i'll go through those on thu 23:15 its in new 23:15 knome: there's a really nice blog about it: http://gottcode.wordpress.com/category/open-source/whisker-menu/ 23:15 (by the dev) 23:16 cool 23:16 there are screenshots and all the bells and whistles 23:16 #action micahg to upload whiskermenu to xfce PPAs 23:16 * meetingology micahg to upload whiskermenu to xfce PPAs 23:16 thanks micahg-work 23:16 please check it out folks, it seems like a nice improvement and would justify getting rid of the bottom panel (that no-one seems to use anymore :)) 23:16 will do :) 23:16 the switch to whisker menu feels like copying linux mint xfce edition :P 23:17 ochosi, feel free to paste that link to the roadmap page 23:17 brainwash: well, it was the other way round for a while now, wasn't it ;) 23:17 brainwash, but we'll do it better ;) 23:17 seems there are about 130 rdepends for python2.7 in main 23:17 yeah, it will be awesome 23:19 ochosi - I quote like whiskermenu 23:19 so... 23:19 do we want to talk about other things that we want to land in 14.04? 23:19 knome: done 23:19 ooh, a new wallpaper! 23:19 ;) 23:19 or other development-related issues that should be resolved ASAP? 23:20 bluesabre, bollocks, we'll use the old one 23:20 well, folks, help us to find *free* wallpapers 23:21 Eventually there'll be movement on the -core draft seed but nothing tonight 23:21 we just rotate the current one, just like the ubuntu guys do it 23:21 or contact the authors of the images of this page and help us get them to change the license: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Raring/Wallpapers 23:21 they should all be cc-by-sa 23:22 knome: and i guess we should move that page to trusty... ^ 23:22 ochosi, rather copy it and add a link to the raring page saying it's postponed 23:23 ochosi, i can do that unless you want to do it. 23:23 knome: no, please do, brb 23:23 what about xmir? definitively no, right? 23:24 brainwash: We haven't heard of anything new from them and haven't had an intervening UDS yet. 23:24 I think it's highly unlikely that ubuntu will go with it in an LTS 23:24 if they try, I think we can do more tests, otherwise push to 14.10 23:24 ochosi, moved to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Trusty/CommunityWallpapers 23:25 err, copied :P 23:25 knome: great, #info it? :> 23:25 :D 23:25 right, the development of xmir seems to be rather slow and some things still do not work properly 23:25 knome: we could also do a call on the ml, but specifically announce that there'll be an internal council that decides on the final selection 23:25 brainwash: it actually seems fast for me, it's just a HUGE undertaking 23:26 #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Trusty/CommunityWallpapers 23:26 knome: xubuntu being a do-ocracy and all... 23:26 ochosi, yup-di-do 23:26 d'oh-ocracy? 23:26 :) 23:26 :) 23:26 #action ochosi announces the community wallpapers project on the mailing list 23:26 * meetingology ochosi announces the community wallpapers project on the mailing list 23:26 brainwash: Never underestimate the possibility of unexpected breakthroughs when you least expect them. They're trying to supplant over 25 years of technical archaeology so they have a monumental task at hand. 23:26 oops, i just wrote in ochosi instead of knome! :) 23:26 haha 23:26 knome: bastard! :) 23:26 :) 23:26 not an accident 23:27 * ochosi feels tricked 23:27 well actually, i'm not a basterd.. 23:27 :P 23:27 :P 23:27 :-! 23:27 :wq! 23:27 ochosi, transifex sucks, do i really have to sign up for an account to be able to translate anything? (or in other words, if you send me the .pot-file, i'll reply with a fi.po) 23:28 knome: transifex.com has a really nice web-interface, but if you prefer, you can also have it your way (email) 23:29 i didn't seem to be able to get it delivered 23:29 ochosi: I might be able to get someone to do the Galician translation 23:29 elfy: great! thanks 23:29 or at least i needed to allow loads of JS, and still didn't work... 23:29 ochosi: but they'd not want to be signing up for anything 23:29 knome: well let's finish the meeting before we talk transifex :) 23:30 ochosi, hehe. 23:30 so anything else? 23:30 micahg-work, you content with everything? 23:30 I didn't see any python or whiskermenu stuff, but i assume that's my internet crashing 23:30 Noskcaj-school: yep 23:31 Noskcaj-school, micahg-work is looking at python stuff, ochosi does a whiskermenu spec at some point 23:31 log reading time 23:32 #agreed 14.04 is going to be an awesome and solid LTS! 23:32 #endmeeting Generated by MeetBot 0.1.5 (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology)