== Meeting information == * #xubuntu-devel: Xubuntu community meeting, 31 Oct at 15:14 — 16:18 UTC * Full logs at [[http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-10-31-15.14.log.html]] == Meeting summary == === Open action items from previous meeting === The discussion about "Open action items from previous meeting" started at 15:14. * ''ACTION:'' knome to prepare the website for the desktop of the week === Strategy Document reviewing === The discussion about "Strategy Document reviewing" started at 15:16. * ''ACTION:'' knome will send the updated SD to lists later this week === Team updates === The discussion about "Team updates" started at 15:16. * nothing from docs * xfdesktop 4.11 has some nice features; builtin support for wallpapers based on the time, support for selecting a specific directory where xfdesktop looks for wallpapers instead of the fixed system directory * Discussion about cherry-picking Xfce 4.11 components (and related issues) on Sunday, 3 November at 22UTC on #xubuntu-devel * ''ACTION:'' ochosi and knome will try to invite some Xfce devs to the meeting === Announcements === The discussion about "Announcements" started at 15:44. * Today is set as the last day of brainstorming for the Roadmap; the team shall approve blueprints next week * After approving, people have two weeks to finalize their specifications (where applicable) * - When I ask people on the -dev list for what's likely to come up that needs testing during the cycle - can they please answer. Because I will be doing so. * A meeting may be scheduled if circumstances warrant outside the regular team meeting schedule on creating the core seed * During the next week I will be mailing -dev list re planning testing (cadence) * ''ACTION:'' lderan to go through the gtk list to see which apps now work with autopilot === New and emerging items === The discussion about "New and emerging items" started at 15:50. * '''Xubuntu Core: Do we offer it only as a metapackage or shall we make downloadable media avaiable as well?''' (15:50) * ''ACTION:'' Unit193 to send a proposed list of packages for -core to ML * '''Documentation''' (16:08) * ochosi thinks one way we can help both xfce and xubuntu is by improving the xfce docs * e.g. for parole-docs we set up a staging site for the docs, we can do the same for other xfce components * xfdesktop could use some updates, looking ahead at the changes of the 4.12 release * so feel free to get in touch with ochosi if you wanna help out with xfce docs * '''Schedule next meeting''' (16:16) * There is a non-regular meeting on Sunday, 3 November at 22UTC on #xubuntu-devel about picking Xfce 4.11 components (and related issues) * The next regular Xubuntu community meeting is on Thursday, 7 November at 15UTC on #xubuntu-devel == Vote results == == Action items == * knome to prepare the website for the desktop of the week * knome will send the updated SD to lists later this week * ochosi and knome will try to invite some Xfce devs to the meeting * lderan to go through the gtk list to see which apps now work with autopilot * Unit193 to send a proposed list of packages for -core to ML == Action items, by person == * knome * knome to prepare the website for the desktop of the week * knome will send the updated SD to lists later this week * ochosi and knome will try to invite some Xfce devs to the meeting * lderan * lderan to go through the gtk list to see which apps now work with autopilot * ochosi * ochosi and knome will try to invite some Xfce devs to the meeting == People present (lines said) == * knome (137) * ochosi (63) * skellat (29) * elfy (23) * micahg-work (22) * GridCube (14) * meetingology (12) * lderan (7) * PhilDick (6) * xnox (5) * jjfrv8 (3) * slickymaster (1) * jono_ (1) * ubottu (1) == Full Log == 15:14 #startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting 15:14 Meeting started Thu Oct 31 15:14:46 2013 UTC. The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. 15:14 15:14 Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired 15:14 #topic Open action items from previous meeting 15:14 o/ 15:15 o/ 15:15 #action knome to prepare the website for the desktop of the week 15:15 * meetingology knome to prepare the website for the desktop of the week 15:15 still TBD 15:15 skellat, have you prepared a blog article about upgrading? :) 15:15 i came to lurk the meeting, hoping to get involved in 14.04 rollout/qa 15:15 PhilDick, welcome! 15:15 PhilDick, you should talk with elfy after the meeting is over 15:15 ok 15:16 knome: In light of a particular bug issue, it is best we put that action item on deep freeze 15:16 Bug 1208204 15:16 bug 1208204 in indicator-sound (Ubuntu) "indicator-sound no longer functions with xfce4-indicator-plugin" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1208204 15:16 ok, i'll just let it slip from the agenda 15:16 #topic Strategy Document reviewing 15:16 yeah, i've been too busy to get the new version out 15:16 #action knome will send the updated SD to lists later this week 15:16 * meetingology knome will send the updated SD to lists later this week 15:16 #topic Team updates 15:17 does anybody have updates since last week? 15:17 Tomorrow is the deadline for booking UDS sessions 15:18 nothing to update from me 15:19 let's bump the UDS discussion first after announcements. 15:19 any other updates? 15:19 nothing much from my side 15:19 #info nothing from docs 15:19 yeah, as expected, still quiet in the development front 15:20 well, there's some news in xfdesktop 15:20 aha, go ahead 15:20 belated here for the meeting 15:20 not sure that really belongs here, but in many of our reviews ppl complained about us not shipping a set of nice wallpapers by default 15:20 a few things have become easier with the new xfdesktop (4.11) 15:20 ochosi, oh great :) 15:21 there are builtin options to change wallpapers based on time 15:21 we do have the community wallpapers idea still WIP, and i think the LTS release is the perfect place to introduce that 15:21 so we could have a morning, noon, afternoon and evening variant of our wallpaper 15:21 yup, i agree 15:22 and the thing is that the new xfdesktop allows users to simply select a folder which contains wallpapers, which is much better than the current system of being able to only add single wallpapers to the list (which would disappear after logout) 15:22 so i hope we can get a 4.11 release into 14.04 15:22 (as i don't expect xfce4.12 to land in time for 14.04) 15:23 ochosi: What's the timeline looking like for 4.12 upstream? 15:23 many fixes also went into the desktop, eric was quite active on it 15:23 skellat: it's unknown 15:23 ochosi: Okay 15:23 basically xfce has become a one-man show (especially wrt core-releases) 15:23 ochosi, i agree with trying to get the 4.11 release in. can you add that to the roadmap and specify the package we need and the reason? :) 15:23 so as long as NSchermer isn't around/active, nothing much is going to happen 15:23 hi guys, sorry for being late :( 15:24 hey slickymaster 15:24 knome: yeah, will try to quickly add that (the package is already in the 4.12ppa) 15:24 ochosi, cheers 15:24 so we can even ask ppl to test things *now* 15:24 excellent 15:24 and report issues if they exist (so far i've not experienced any extra bugs with the 4.11 version, and i've been using it for a while) 15:25 ochosi, I won't land 4.11 unless 4.12 is guaranteed to come behind it 15:25 #info xfdesktop 4.11 has some nice features; builtin support for wallpapers based on the time, support for selecting a specific directory where xfdesktop looks for wallpapers instead of the fixed system directory 15:25 micahg-work, i think we need to discuss that 15:25 I don't like the idea of dropping in pre-release versions unless necessary 15:26 we selected the pieces that look stable enough 15:26 micahg-work, landing stuff is fine from my point of view, as long as we test it thoroughly 15:26 yeah, so why not continue to do so? 15:26 knome, sorry, didn't mean to be snarky :) 15:26 (i mean, continue to land pieces that seem stable enough) 15:27 micahg-work, the list we dropped in for 13.10 was short because of the lack of time, not because components weren't stable enough 15:27 ochosi, because upgrade paths might become messy, as this is an LTS, I'd prefer to keep it as stable as sanely possible 15:27 if this were LTS+1 I'd have no problem dropping in the prereleases if they looked stable 15:28 I'd just rather not do it for the LTS unless we have no choice 15:28 as i said, i think we need to discuss what the policy re: including stuff is 15:28 micahg-work: i agree, in this case there's a migrate-patch: http://git.xfce.org/xfce/xfdesktop/commit/?id=af240b063cd0678dc1739ffa28e93f1ff530bead 15:28 just saying, xfdesktop should take care of the transition by itself 15:28 ultimately, us dropping in some pieces of 4.11 can help xfce release 4.12 sooner. 15:29 +1 15:29 and we should definitely be in touch with them about releasing 4.12 too 15:29 I wouldn't mind getting it packaged in a PPA, I'm just averse to throwing it in the archiv 15:29 well, it's already in a PPA ;) 15:29 my point is that if nobody is pushing stuff forward, we're going to stay quite frozen 15:30 if we knew 4.12 was being released in Jan or Feb, this wouldn't be an issue, but that was supposed to happen at the beginning of the year 15:30 yeah, as i said, the situation weighs more or less on NSchermer's shoulders 15:30 and there aren't many other contributors to -core 15:31 i could get in touch with him about a 4.12 release-date, but i'm very pessimistic about that 15:31 we should all sit down, with nick, and discuss about this openly 15:32 there are still things left to do for 4.12, and i fear many of these things would have to be done by him 15:32 We need to get that done before UDS anyhow as we need to have our features settled by then 15:32 simply because there aren't many other ppl around 15:32 with our and their concerns, the ways we can help them release sooner 15:32 skellat, yes and no... that's quite subjective :) 15:33 knome: Feature Definition Freeze supposedly falls the same week as UDS in the Trusty Tahr schedule 15:34 skellat, yes, i'm aware of that, but it's still so-so if we "really" need to have everything planned; we've slipped that times and times... 15:34 Okay 15:34 skellat, ...and nobody comes asking us what we're preparing, or need our list 15:34 Okay 15:34 yeah, i think these are things we can decide for ourselves 15:34 but ofc it's helpful if we have some kind of feature definition freeze (in theory) 15:35 of course! 15:35 there's still a week to go, and tbh, i think that's enough time for us to sit down and think what we want *even if 4.12 didn't land* 15:35 i mean it's not a huge list, and it's not something that's going to break the world. 15:36 knome: one more thing we could discuss is the current panel layout 15:36 ochosi, okay. 15:36 i'm mostly happy with the top-panel, but i'm wondering about the bottom panel 15:36 ochosi, bluesabre, micahg-work: can we set some date in the next 7 days to sit down and discuss? 15:37 Sunday is probably better for me 15:37 i mean i personally haven't used that one for ages and i'm really wondering how useful it is 15:37 otherwise, it'll be too late for all of you 15:37 i remove the bottom 15:37 sunday works for me, if it's late enough 15:37 hmm, sunday i'm travelling all day, but depends on the time 15:37 22UTC? 15:37 ochosi, micahg-work: late enough? 15:37 sounds good to me 15:37 late enough or too late :) 15:37 ochosi: +1 to bottom panel and lderan I do as well 15:38 ochosi, propose. 15:38 i'll try to make it 15:38 well, that's late afternoon for me :) 15:38 ochosi, i can make it later... and earlier. 15:38 knome: ok, let me quickly check my train schedule 15:38 sure 15:38 elfy: +1 means drop the bottom panel or keep it in this context? 15:38 i remove bottom panel 15:39 i'm fine with dropping the panel 15:39 I'm fine with 22:00 UTC 15:39 micahg-work, let's wait for ochosi's train schedule confirmation :) 15:39 ochosi: I mean I never use it and in fact remove it 15:39 i think if we add e.g. whiskermenu by default (which i hope we will), it's easay enough to launch apps 15:39 easy 15:39 *coughs* :) 15:39 ok, thanks for the quick feedback 15:39 * ochosi adds it to the roadmap 15:39 ochosi, sun schedule? 15:40 knome: sure sure, just one sec... 15:41 I think the panel adds a nice touch, but if we can easily launch apps, it should be fine to remove 15:41 i don't know who actually use the panel 15:41 let's make sure we have docs on how to add it back for people 15:41 I use it to launch email/browser 15:41 it's somewhat hidden, and otoh, when it opens, it's a distraction 15:41 that's why i remove it 15:41 yeah, either add a real dock or drop that 15:41 (imo) 15:42 it's one of the first things I do on a new install - remove it, that is 15:42 knome: so i think it might work for me, let's make it 22utc 15:42 not sure if a real dock is any less distractive. 15:42 okay, 22 utc it is 15:42 dunno, i've been using plank for a while now and i enjoy it so far 15:42 #info Discussion about cherry-picking on Sunday, 3 November at 22UTC on #xubuntu-devel 15:42 #undo 15:42 Removing item from minutes: 15:42 keep in mind xfce/xubuntu users may be avoiding bells and whistles intentionally. otoh those here may not be representative of all xub users 15:43 it also fits xubuntu nicely, because it's lightweight etc 15:43 #info Discussion about cherry-picking Xfce 4.11 components (and related issues) on Sunday, 3 November at 22UTC on #xubuntu-devel 15:43 ochosi, i think we can discuss about the panel configuration at a later time, in a general meeting 15:43 knome: we could try to invite some xfce devs too.. 15:43 yep, we should. 15:43 #info ochosi and knome will try to invite some Xfce devs to the meeting 15:43 err 15:43 #undo 15:43 Removing item from minutes: 15:43 i'll send a quick note to the xfdesktop-dev 15:43 * elfy will try to be there for that meeting so he can keep up with what he might need to think about 15:43 #action ochosi and knome will try to invite some Xfce devs to the meeting 15:43 * meetingology ochosi and knome will try to invite some Xfce devs to the meeting 15:44 elfy, cheers :) we will naturally also make notes... 15:44 #topic Announcements 15:44 yep - not the same as following a discussion though at the time :) 15:44 #info Today is set as the last day of brainstorming for the Roadmap; the team shall approve blueprints next week 15:45 #info After approving, people have two weeks to finalize their specifications (where applicable) 15:45 any other announcements? 15:45 bbiab 15:46 ochosi, thanks for the announcement 15:46 * elfy has a pet peeve that could be an announcement 15:46 elfy, go ahead 15:46 does it need an # ? 15:47 elfy, #info please 15:47 #info - When I ask people on the -dev list for what's likely to come up that needs testing during the cycle - can they please answer. Because I will be doing so. 15:47 yep, we will :) 15:48 and we will also try to be in contact the other way; when we know something else/new needs testing, we will let you know 15:48 #info A meeting may be scheduled if circumstances warrant outside the regular team meeting schedule on creating the core seed 15:48 I'd rather know now that something is coming up in a few months - than then when otjher things are planned 15:49 elfy, sure. the meetings on sunday and next thurday when we approve things should give you a good idea what we are preparing to land to 14.04 images 15:49 will be going through the list of the gtk apps for autopilot testing and seeing which ones now launch without error that didn't before and update the wiki 15:49 lderan, #action lderan ... :) 15:49 #info During the next week I will be mailing -dev list re planning testing (cadence) 15:49 elfy, feel free to add that to the meeting schedule as well, if you want that discussed next thu 15:49 #action lderan to go through the gtk list to see which apps now work with autopilot 15:49 * meetingology lderan to go through the gtk list to see which apps now work with autopilot 15:50 * knome bows 15:50 lderan: can you keep in touch with me re that 15:50 will do 15:50 #topic New and emerging items 15:50 catfish works with it now which is prompting it 15:50 #subtopic Xubuntu Core: Do we offer it only as a metapackage or shall we make downloadable media avaiable as well? 15:50 knome: I suspect I will be working next thursday and missing - will leave copious notes 15:50 elfy, sure :) 15:50 I can speak to the subtopic briefly 15:51 this has been discussed quite a bit, and i think the current stance is "only a metapackage" 15:51 skellat, go ahead 15:51 would be nice as a netinstall or metapackage, I don't know that we need media unless we have the testers 15:51 i would like to avoid the extra image 15:51 another option is to make it selectable from the installer, as edubuntu does 15:51 i'm not against that, but if you make me choose, just a metapackage works. 15:52 Within the limits of the current approved generation options for installation, we can either generate an image or have a user go through mini.iso 15:52 as a potential new qa tester, easier is better.... i'm willing to learn whats required but easier may equal more testers. 15:52 I'd be +1 for whatever is easiest for us as a team to work with 15:52 If core is kept as a strict subset of regular xubuntu-desktop, though 15:52 skellat, ...and we can offer it as an option in the installer :) 15:53 yeah, that'd be really nice 15:53 knome: That would require some hacking on ubiquity to make it available as an option 15:53 skellat, sure, but that's completely in our reach, if we want to do that 15:53 and a whole lot of extra testing - do we really think that we'd get that? 15:53 With the way live cd images are generated 15:53 ... 15:54 I don't want to be having to do more tests on milestone days because we've not had sufficient turnout 15:54 core would have to be a strict subset and ubiquity would need additional rules on what to leave behind 15:54 elfy, a few more testcases. 15:54 skellat, yep. 15:54 skellat: ubiquity supports plugins, so one of xubuntu specific packages can just drop in one .py file as a plugin to fully customize ubiquity. thus actually you can do all of that without touching lp:ubiquity at all =) 15:54 knome: which is ok if you have more than ~20 testers 15:54 oh meeting 15:54 yep :) 15:54 Thank you xnox. We'll still need somebody to make the plugin, though. 15:54 elfy, i'm not disagreeing or pushing for the ubiquity stuff. just saying *it is possible if we want it* 15:55 even from the QA point of view. 15:55 yep - I understand what you're saying - just putting my pov across now :) 15:55 of course it's additional burden... but it's about the same as if we reintroduced the alternate images 15:55 skellat: knome: in terms of implementation - ubiquity is stupid and copies everything first, and then does removal. So xubuntu-desktop will be install first, and then you need to intelligently do an $ apt-get remove * step in essence. 15:55 The case behind core remains we give the bare basic subset of desktop, which should require fewer test cases, that installers can then customize as they see fit in lieu of what xubuntu-desktop provides. 15:56 skellat: it's not about what is IN a testcase - but that we rarely have enough people testing what we already have :) 15:56 elfy: True 15:56 skellat, we still need/want to test what's in the -desktop metapackage as well 15:56 Ideally the tests would overlap 15:57 sure :) 15:57 The same things would be covered 15:57 -core would just have fewer of them than -desktop 15:57 skellat, what's your take on the subject? what would you do? 15:57 From what xnox said about ubiquity, I'd generate a separate image 15:58 That way we don't have to deal with ubiquity having to remove things 15:58 that would mean quite many new testcases though 15:58 True 15:58 which i think isn't sustainable 15:58 My second choice would be fabulous documentation on the art of using mini.iso 15:58 okay 15:58 so you would try to avoid modifying ubiquity? :) 15:59 but mini ist a real option to poeple who want -core because they dont have a fast connection 15:59 The plugin could be done as xnox mentions above but then we'd have to worry about dependencies being broken during a remove and possibly creating dead installs 15:59 knome: skellat: alternative is to make the default liveimage xubuntu-core, and ship the rest of xubuntu-desktop in the /pool/ which is installed in-target "the slow way" (same as it was done by alternate image) 15:59 GridCube, that's not the only reason why people want -core 16:00 no, i didnt said it where 16:00 knome: skellat: but then "try xubuntu" would actually be "try xubuntu-core" 16:00 xnox, yeah, that's not what we want... whatever we end up doing, -desktop should be the default 16:01 so anyway, Unit193 has been setting up a list of packages we want for -core 16:01 knome: it can still be default, but there is an option to sacrafice the "livecd session" to be -core. 16:01 Personally, I'd rather generate and test one image well, than 2 images poorly 16:01 rather than argue about how we'll do it, let's see what it would consist instead, first 16:01 micahg-work, +1 16:01 micahg-work: +1 16:01 +1 16:01 also thats why we droped alternate in the first time 16:01 As to GridCube's notion of needing a fast connection to download, we would get enough to bootstrap & apt-offline would be useful to grab the rest. That's why we seed it. 16:01 #action Unit193 to send a proposed list of packages for -core to ML 16:01 * meetingology Unit193 to send a proposed list of packages for -core to ML 16:02 i'd say that raising visibility of the need for testers and the howto on tester setup might be most impactful option. i'd describe what i found starting from xubuntu.org as subdued and scattered. 16:02 I'm fine with the metapackage and tasksel installation option, but let's leave it off the media, I think we have enough to test for the LTS, let's not add to that 16:02 PhilDick: yea - that's on the roadmap for QA actually 16:02 PhilDick, that's a different question, and i can't agree more; and it's on the roadmap/plans for 14.04; talk with elfy if you want to help :) 16:02 micahg-work, s/for the LTS/for any version/ :) 16:02 we can think about adding that for LTS+1 and if it's successful, we can produce a point release for those new images 16:03 i don't think it's important enough to warrant a new image 16:03 ultimately, it should be only installed by people who know what they are doing 16:03 knome, I'd say especially the LTS as we have to support this for 3 years, so we want to get it right, plus, this is what we point non-advanced users to as a rock solid platform 16:03 and that kind of people should be comfortable with the mini ISO 16:04 micahg-work, sure, but it's true enough for any release, we don't have dozens of testers anyway 16:04 anyway, we're agreeing; let's move on 16:04 #chair ochosi 16:04 Current chairs: knome ochosi 16:04 ochosi, the floor is yours 16:05 ok, first of all, thanks slickymaster and jjfrv8 on helping out with parole-docs 16:05 ochosi, #subtopic too, if you want to have #info #action 16:05 it's really a great help for bluesabre and me, so we can focus on fixing bugs 16:05 knome: sure 16:06 i think one way we can help both xfce and xubuntu is by improving the xfce docs 16:06 they're in dokuwiki format, which is easier to handle for newbies than docbook etc 16:07 #info ochosi thinks one way we can help both xfce and xubuntu is by improving the xfce docs 16:07 * knome facepalms 16:07 #undo 16:07 Removing item from minutes: 16:08 #subtopic Documentation 16:08 #info ochosi thinks one way we can help both xfce and xubuntu is by improving the xfce docs 16:08 ok ok :) 16:09 #info e.g. for parole-docs we set up a staging site for the docs, we can do the same for other xfce components 16:09 #info xfdesktop could use some updates, looking ahead at the changes of the 4.12 release 16:11 #info so feel free to get in touch with ochosi if you wanna help out with xfce docs 16:11 that includes jono_ at the redhat nat! 16:11 * knome hides 16:11 ;-) 16:11 ok, that's it from my side 16:12 anybody else has any issues? 16:12 o/ 16:12 i added a few topics to the roadmap 16:12 ok 16:12 thanks 16:12 well, two 16:13 we will be going through them this week, and deciding about them next thu 16:13 ok, if we find new ideas can we still add them to the roadmap? 16:14 feel free to; i'll add a subheader to separate things added after today though 16:14 alright 16:14 but no reason to not add new items; ultimately, we can use them for planning the U roadmap 16:14 what about the desktop of the week? 16:15 i will need to get to that some day 16:15 i've still been really busy; sorry about that :) 16:15 :/ that doesnt sound very promising 16:15 and :( 16:15 but alright :) i know its really low in the lists 16:15 tell that to my clients and real life :P 16:15 anything else? 16:15 do not worry 16:16 don't worry, i won't worry... and don't get that wrong, it's on the list and i will eventually get to it ;) 16:16 #subtopic Schedule next meeting 16:17 #info There is a non-regular meeting on Sunday, 3 November at 22UTC on #xubuntu-devel about picking Xfce 4.11 components (and related issues) 16:18 #info The next regular Xubuntu community meeting is on Thursday, 7 November at 15UTC on #xubuntu-devel 16:18 #endmeeting Generated by MeetBot 0.1.5 (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology)