#title #xubuntu-devel: Xubuntu team meeting (ISO size etc.) Meeting started by knome at 21:00:17 UTC. The full logs are available at http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-02-11-21.00.log.html . == Meeting summary == *ISO size for R and beyond *Language support (knome, 21:21:32) ''LINK:'' http://www.slax.org/en/download.php (GridCube, 21:30:41) *Bringing back Gnumeric and GIMP (knome, 21:33:29) Meeting ended at 22:01:41 UTC. == Votes == * Gnumeric For: 4 Against: 0 Abstained: 2 * 2 ISO's: one "core" ISO (max. 1GB) and one ~2GB ISO with more languages. yay or nay? For: 2 Against: 1 Abstained: 5 * ISO size bump: +1 for 1GB, +0 for any other size (please specify), -1 for keeping current CD size For: 8 Against: 0 Abstained: 0 * astraljava bluesabre GridCube knome maddernick micahgmobile mrpouit ochosi pleia2 Unit193 For: 0 Against: 0 Abstained: 0 * GIMP For: 5 Against: 1 Abstained: 1 == Action items == * (none) == People present (lines said) == * knome (165) * GridCube (63) * meetingology (59) * bluesabre (34) * micahgmobile (25) * Unit193 (22) * pjotr (20) * pleia2 (20) * maddernick (9) * mrpouit (6) * drc (5) * djtf (1) * bluesabre_ (1) * ochosi (0) * astraljava (0) == Full Log == 21:00:17 #startmeeting Xubuntu team meeting (ISO size etc.) 21:00:17 Meeting started Mon Feb 11 21:00:17 2013 UTC. The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. 21:00:17 21:00:17 Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired 21:00:20 so who's here 21:00:24 o/ 21:00:26 say "yeeee-a" 21:00:38 here 21:00:42 it's yeeee-haa 21:01:00 finnish-texans, sheesh 21:01:06 drc, i haven't heard any artist/comedian shout out their audience like cowboys :P 21:01:07 \o 21:01:12 Yeee-haw! 21:01:22 ah, the left-hand cube has arrived 21:01:24 here 21:01:38 hallo 21:01:46 astraljava, micahgmobile, micahg_, ochosi, pleia2 21:01:56 bonsoir, monsieur Le Folgoc 21:01:57 heya lionel! 21:02:30 Professional lurker here. 21:02:36 if any of you have any *other* agenda items than the iso size, feel free to shout them out now and i'll make sure they get processed after the iso size talk 21:02:46 Libre Office in the iso 21:03:26 not sure if mousepad made it into the default stack, but mousepad instead of leafpad 21:04:07 I defer one to R+1 21:04:33 let's wait a bit more, since everybody said they could come... 21:04:55 ok 21:05:26 knome, do we need to start compiling a new faq, correct? 21:05:53 GridCube, it's not a critical task as it is, but definitely doesn't hurt if we do 21:05:57 and the deviantART group, i still need icons and some guidelines help 21:06:04 yup, i should work on those 21:06:20 those are my only topics 21:07:19 #topic ISO size for R and beyond 21:07:41 so... there's been a lot of discussion about the ISO size 21:08:10 several team members have been wanting a 1GB ISO for R (and ofc beyond) 21:08:22 does anybody have any objections to this for starters? 21:08:47 (speak and repeat, if there is anything we should consider) 21:09:06 I have no voting rights, but I would very much like a 1 GB iso 21:09:18 that's not an objection, but thanks :) 21:09:18 I think it could be even bigger 21:09:25 maddernick, for what reason? 21:09:26 I no longer used cd's so I'll abstain, it doesn't matter to me 21:09:31 Nobody uses CDs 21:09:45 then what's the discussion about? 21:09:46 maddernick, why is that a reason to have a bigger than 1GB ISO ? 21:09:52 DVD's or USB sticks are usually a lot bigger than 1GB 21:10:00 i dont have any objection, but again we need to determinate exactly who are our targets 21:10:02 Because then all the goodies could be on there 21:10:04 CD's are even becoming hard to find, in the stores in Holland. All DVD's... 21:10:12 * pleia2 waves 21:10:22 maddernick, what is it that we need in the ISO that would make it >1GB? 21:10:31 hey pleia2 :) 21:10:43 i think we cannot target old computers anymore, we need to target new users and make our distro more popular, so we need more space, old computers will have to move on, sadly 21:10:46 For now, perhaps nothing. But in the future there could be many things :) 21:10:49 * micahgmobile waves 21:10:50 pleia2, do you want to be the one that reads the strategy document? :) 21:10:55 micahgmobile, oh hullo! 21:11:24 maddernick, in that case, shouldn't we reconsider the size at a later time (and not have a, say 2GB image right now just because we can and we *might* need it?) 21:11:43 i dont see why a limit is relevant 21:12:00 CD size is less needed right now, but why do we need a huge size? Do we really want to add the kitchen sink? 21:12:05 its not like we could grow 3gb over night 21:12:12 The important thing is to let go of the CD size, IMHO.... 21:12:14 Ofc, I was merely objecting to setting a R and beyond limit in stone 21:12:16 GridCube, we've lost PAE support anyway, that's true. and we can help people boot from their USB via CD's even if they don't have a BIOS that can boot to USB directly 21:12:18 knome: what am I reading it for? :) 21:12:34 knome, yes, i agree 21:12:36 pleia2, dunno. GridCube talked about "who's our target!" :) 21:12:38 Gridcube: oh yeah :-P 21:13:05 Unit193, that's exactly what i'm thinking. if we don't have a reason to go over 1GB, why go? 21:13:13 and we *need* to set some limit for the ISO anyway 21:13:16 if we reset our target, then there is no discussion 21:13:26 Would Libre Office fit in 1 GB? 21:13:26 at this point, most people have at least a 1 gb flash drive floating around somewhere 21:13:30 I was honestly thinking 800 should do, but it'd be more what micahgmobile says. 21:13:48 i think 1GB is realistic at this point 21:13:51 i dont see why a limit is relevant at this point 21:13:53 pjotr, let's talk about that later 21:14:10 my major concern is that right now by continuing to squeeze it onto a CD we're taking up a lot of developer time, micahg at least is spending all this time fiddling to make it fit, time which I think could be much spent elsewhere 21:14:14 GridCube, just like it's good to have some deadlines, it's good to have some kind of soft limit 21:14:23 ^ that 21:14:29 bluesabre, which one? :P 21:14:37 I'd rather keep it well under the limit so we're not fiddling each cycle 21:14:41 I was writing what you wrote faster than me, knome 21:15:02 bluesabre, ok. :) i was wondering if you pointed to my or elizabeth's comment... 21:15:04 sure, but a "if it grows too much too fast then we consider it" is a better aproach imho 21:15:24 micahgmobile: +1 21:15:29 if it looks like R is not going to fit in 1GB, then just bump it up. 21:15:38 sure 21:15:41 it's not a huge decision once we've decided to go USB anyway 21:15:45 So, 800-900 MB sounds good 21:15:47 However, I'd like to try and keep gnome deps out if it can be done. :/ 21:16:06 but i don't want to say "our limit is 2GB" just to be able to throw in all kind of stuff we don't really even need... 21:16:12 we should still try to keep it simple, so its simplier for tester and developers to mantain 21:16:24 yup, more packages is always more packages 21:16:26 not adding stuff just because there is space 21:16:32 right 21:16:33 right 21:16:34 ...and more to document 21:16:51 yup, and test 21:16:51 and everything 21:16:56 just not being concerned with space if what is needed takes more 21:16:57 that's why i think there needs to be a limit 21:17:09 The maintenance is mostly fiddling for size 21:17:09 our limit should be 800M but secretly 1G ;) 21:17:11 I'd love to get inxi in, as it's very helpful in support areas, and others as well. 21:17:19 and not removing stuff, like locales, i think we need ALL of the locales 21:17:40 we should give priority to apps we forced out last release, and language packs 21:17:46 * micahgmobile hands GridCube a DVD 21:17:52 mrpouit: +1 21:17:56 +1 21:17:59 +1 21:18:04 Indeed. 21:18:05 that would probably get us back to 800mb 21:18:06 i think the exact limit we're targetting should be set after we've talked what we'd like to fit in for R, discussed what we *will* and after mrpouit and micahgmobile have thought how much that'd need 21:18:36 (again, i dont see the need of a limit, but sure) 21:18:55 I don't think we should go over 1 GB without a good reason 21:18:57 and if possible, bluesabre should be integrated in this process to help mentoring him to be a ubuntu developer 21:19:23 :D 21:19:41 i don't think we should add any package without a good reason, whichever limit it was we broke (was it 800, 850, ...) 21:19:51 We can have a DVD image with the kitchen sink as long as someone will test it 21:20:05 I'll test it... :-) 21:20:14 as long as we don't start adding stuff just because we can 21:20:17 not enough testers 21:20:30 agreed, not adding stuff just because 21:20:33 * pleia2 makes note "recruit pjotr to lead testing" 21:20:41 are we semi-ready to move on to more specific (sub)topics? 21:20:43 i propose a voting on that 21:21:07 i'd like to go through some stuff quickly before voting 21:21:22 not necessarily anything that changes the outcome, just want to talk about them 21:21:32 #subtopic Language support 21:21:52 what should our plan be? 21:22:00 it made me sad to drop a bunch of packs last cycle 21:22:09 all of locales, all of them 21:22:20 Ummm... 21:22:24 or at least the ones we were shipping before 21:22:29 how much does "all of them" take up? 21:22:31 i would like that anyone all over the world could put a xubuntu usb and get a sytem in their lang 21:22:32 GridCube, that will take awfully lot of space, no way it's fitting even in 1GB 21:22:47 bluesabre: that's what I'm thinking 21:22:53 I'd like to migrate to Kubuntu style langpacks for the LTS 21:22:58 bluesabre, "before" referring to 11.10 or sth like 9.10? 21:23:07 I was thinking 11.10 21:23:09 bluesabre, there's a huge difference... :) 21:23:23 6.10 would be a good benchmark 21:23:29 :D 21:23:29 micahgmobile: What is that? 21:23:34 hehe 21:23:46 We can probably do a DVD with all the languages 21:24:01 micahgmobile, but not in 1GB? 21:24:08 i mean, let me find a good comment 21:24:20 No, it would be closer to 2 GB 21:24:46 yowch 21:24:51 23:13 bluesabre: at this point, most people have at least a 1 gb flash drive floating around somewhere 21:25:04 i think that's a words of a genius 21:25:15 that's also why i think limit matters 21:25:34 I think we should define core languages for the 1 GB image and create a 2 GB+ image for the rest 21:25:50 that leads to a question 21:26:16 does it make sense to d/l >2GB image to get your language on the CD, or would you just d/l the 1GB image and install a single langpack in addition? 21:26:20 pjotr hopes Dutch will be deemed a core language... :P 21:26:25 If the languages are the only difference, there would not have to be much additional testing beyond what we do for the standard iso (since it is also dvd-sized) 21:26:46 how would testing work for the 2G image? it's similar enough that I think the tests would be pretty much identical to the regular image, but release-wise I think we require doing a minimum number of tests on it directly 21:27:11 bluesabre, well that's not the point. consider english was not on the smaller image. would you d/l >2GB or just install from the 1GB image and add english support? 21:27:24 sometimes you don't have internet access 21:27:38 release-wise, we set ourselves how much testing any ISO needs 21:27:39 especially if you're targeting another "non-core" language 21:28:25 pjotr, we've usually went the "which is spoken the most" way, and if dutch fits that list... :) 21:28:44 isn't there any other way to get a langpack downloaded easily and get it installed to a system? 21:28:52 like, download a bunch of .debs and install then 21:28:54 *them 21:29:24 yes we could go for the 20 most readed languages 21:29:33 people should make mini sized ISO's that worked like software repositories 21:29:34 or like that 21:29:38 one per each language 21:29:42 just saying... 21:30:05 I'm not proposing anything, just supported other people's ideas :D 21:30:14 (like the custom slax isos?) 21:30:16 that could be burned on a CD as well, if you only had one USB stick. 21:30:36 i believe it's rather easy to create such a cd 21:30:41 http://www.slax.org/en/download.php 21:30:44 i think it only needs the .debs and some kind of index file 21:30:57 not that thats possible here, but its pretty 21:31:05 maybe I should make a iso localization gui :D 21:31:27 o: that would be awesome bluesabre 21:31:35 bluesabre, well that or simply have the base ISO and the localization ISO (if your language is not on the base ISO) 21:31:38 so anyway 21:32:03 micahgmobile, mrpouit: do you think it's fair to target what we had pre-12.04 language-wise for starters? 21:32:56 yeah it should be, I think 21:33:00 ok, good 21:33:02 let's go with that 21:33:29 #subtopic Bringing back Gnumeric and GIMP 21:33:45 i think it makes sense to reintroduce Gnumeric 21:33:58 (if we're not including LO, but let's talk about that later again) 21:34:07 Can we merge this with Libre Office question? 21:34:13 no gimp 21:34:13 I have little time left... 21:34:24 mrpouit, micahgmobile: your thoughts about LO? 21:34:40 i'm +-0 for GIMP. 21:34:41 Too big 21:34:44 Every Xubuntu user I know, has installed Libre Office. 21:34:52 yes, but its too big 21:35:00 A couple of hours ago, I've started a poll on the Dutch Ubuntu forum. With this question to the Xubuntu users there: do you install Libre Office in Xubuntu? 21:35:18 So far, eight responses: 7 yes, 1 no. 21:35:18 URL: http://forum.ubuntu-nl.org/algemeen-42/peiling-xubuntugebruikers-heb-je-er-libre-office-bij-geinstalleerd/ 21:35:18 You may need to use Google Translate to, well, translate it.... :-) 21:35:18 i assume there are some dependencies which add to the size 21:35:24 LO can go on the larger image if we do one 21:35:32 well one said "Nee" 21:35:49 knome: lol 21:35:50 must have been a knight 21:36:02 gnumeric +1 21:36:06 gimp +1 21:36:18 let's make quick polls 21:36:18 Knight to bishop 3 21:36:22 lo pulls java 21:36:45 GridCube: not necessarily 21:37:40 that should have been a question 21:37:50 #vote astraljava bluesabre GridCube knome maddernick micahgmobile mrpouit ochosi pleia2 Unit193 21:37:50 Please vote on: astraljava bluesabre GridCube knome maddernick micahgmobile mrpouit ochosi pleia2 Unit193 21:37:50 Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me) 21:37:56 hmm. 21:38:01 It would make Xubuntu out of the box a complete alternative to Ubuntu. A first impression which would even be better than it is now. 21:38:03 i wonder that meetingology expects us to vote on. 21:38:04 #voters 21:38:09 right. 21:38:11 on ourselfs 21:38:13 #endvote 21:38:13 Voting ended on: astraljava bluesabre GridCube knome maddernick micahgmobile mrpouit ochosi pleia2 Unit193 21:38:13 Votes for:0 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0 21:38:13 Deadlock, casting vote may be used 21:38:18 #voters astraljava bluesabre GridCube knome maddernick micahgmobile mrpouit ochosi pleia2 Unit193 21:38:18 Current voters: GridCube Unit193 astraljava bluesabre knome maddernick micahgmobile mrpouit ochosi pleia2 21:38:25 #vote Gnumeric 21:38:25 Please vote on: Gnumeric 21:38:25 Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me) 21:38:28 +1 21:38:28 +1 received from knome 21:38:31 +1 21:38:31 +1 received from GridCube 21:38:31 +1 21:38:31 +1 received from pleia2 21:38:34 that should do it. 21:38:35 +1 21:38:35 +1 received from bluesabre 21:38:43 +0 21:38:43 +0 received from micahgmobile 21:38:45 +0 21:38:45 +0 received from Unit193 21:39:21 that makes it at the worst 4-2 21:39:23 #endvote 21:39:23 Voting ended on: Gnumeric 21:39:23 Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:2 21:39:23 Motion carried 21:39:30 let's reintroduce gnumeric. 21:39:34 :) 21:39:38 #vote GIMP 21:39:38 Please vote on: GIMP 21:39:38 Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me) 21:39:41 -1 21:39:41 -1 received from GridCube 21:39:43 +1 21:39:43 +1 received from pleia2 21:39:43 +0 21:39:43 +0 received from knome 21:39:45 +1 21:39:45 +1 received from bluesabre 21:39:53 +1 21:39:53 +1 received from micahgmobile 21:40:07 +1 21:40:07 +1 received from mrpouit 21:40:13 +1 21:40:13 +1 received from Unit193 21:40:21 that makes it more + than - as well... 21:40:23 #endvote 21:40:23 Voting ended on: GIMP 21:40:23 Votes for:5 Votes against:1 Abstentions:1 21:40:23 Motion carried 21:40:30 let's reintroduce gimp 21:40:30 :D 21:40:33 OK.... maybe you can reconsider LO for Raring +1.... Thanks for listening to me. I have to go now. Bye. 21:40:33 yay 21:40:51 pjotr: Bye, have a godo one. 21:40:56 Good as well. 21:40:57 bye pjotr :) have a nice day 21:40:57 so, does anybody have anything else about the ISO size than voting on the size itself? 21:41:00 seeya pjotr 21:41:05 pjotr, thanks! 21:41:30 wallpapers 21:41:32 Just my proposal of core languages 21:41:38 micahgmobile, sure 21:41:38 ? 21:41:52 thats something reviewrs tend to focus on 21:41:57 GridCube, we can fit those in if we go 1GB :) 21:42:03 :D i know 21:42:18 yeah, wallpapers or a xubuntu-wallpapers package (if there is not one already) 21:42:21 i don't think we need to vote on that 21:42:21 more themes? 21:42:32 GridCube, not if they're not good in quality 21:42:41 GridCube, but can be considered, also faenza-xfce 21:43:16 well, a few more wont hurt i say, i would like that reviewers have something fancy to review 21:43:25 beside our strenght that is stability 21:43:40 you know that that was the main complain i've heard out of them 21:43:52 GridCube, i think we agree with ochosi (with the artwork lead hat on) that quality matters more than quantity 21:43:59 yes 21:44:01 micahgmobile, so, uh, did you have a proposal? 21:44:01 i agree 21:44:18 micahgmobile, or were you referring to something you said before 21:44:25 the main wallpaper complaint I saw was that we have xubuntu-precise -> xubuntu-quantal 21:44:39 it's funny seeing them argue the difference between them 21:44:43 when its a symlink 21:44:45 heh 21:44:52 take that discussion to mrpouit 21:44:58 and make him mentor you to fix the names 21:45:02 What I said before 21:45:04 hehe 21:45:19 micahgmobile, i'll find that 21:45:34 23:25 micahgmobile: I think we should define core languages for the 1 GB image and create a 2 GB+ image for the rest 21:45:37 that? 21:45:54 Yeah 21:46:07 ok, i think it makes sense to vote on the main ISO size first 21:46:13 :) 21:46:18 if we decide 1GB, then vote on that 21:46:22 agree? 21:47:13 agree 21:47:22 was asking from micahgmobile :P 21:47:41 micahgmobile, feel free to disagree, and we'll go the other way. :P 21:48:04 Ok, as long as we're under 10 core languages I think 21:48:10 ok 21:48:14 #vote ISO size bump: +1 for 1GB, +0 for any other size (please specify), -1 for keeping current CD size 21:48:14 Please vote on: ISO size bump: +1 for 1GB, +0 for any other size (please specify), -1 for keeping current CD size 21:48:14 Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me) 21:48:21 +1 21:48:21 +1 received from pleia2 21:48:22 +1 21:48:22 +1 received from knome 21:48:30 +1 21:48:30 +1 received from maddernick 21:48:38 +1 21:48:38 +1 received from micahgmobile 21:48:39 +1 21:48:39 +1 received from bluesabre 21:48:52 +1 21:48:52 +1 received from mrpouit 21:49:07 +1 21:49:07 +1 received from GridCube 21:49:25 +1 (would prefer 800-900, but close enough) 21:49:25 +1 (would prefer 800-900, but close enough) received from Unit193 21:49:26 Unit193, want to get your vote recorded or more interested in cookies ATM? 21:49:37 knome: Cookies, of course. 21:49:41 Unit193, you didn't read the instructions! :P 21:49:43 oh well 21:49:46 #endvote 21:49:46 Voting ended on: ISO size bump: +1 for 1GB, +0 for any other size (please specify), -1 for keeping current CD size 21:49:46 Votes for:8 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0 21:49:46 Motion carried 21:49:51 Sure I did. :) 21:49:59 didn't follow though 21:50:00 now then 21:50:03 another vote 21:50:10 just a sec as i type it 21:50:13 woot, lets get 3 media players in there now 21:50:16 :P 21:50:24 bluesabre, haha, let's get all, since we can't decide anyway 21:50:36 knome: Meh, it's close enough I may as well say yey. 21:50:42 Unit193, my intent is to have the 1 GB image on the range you specified 21:51:10 micahgmobile: Wonderful. But of course up to you. 21:51:11 woo lets remove gmb and put a good media player! wooo 21:51:28 what have I started? 21:51:32 #vote 2 ISO's: one "core" ISO (max. 1GB) and one ~2GB ISO with more languages. yay or nay? 21:51:32 Please vote on: 2 ISO's: one "core" ISO (max. 1GB) and one ~2GB ISO with more languages. yay or nay? 21:51:32 Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me) 21:51:37 Parole is the music *player* 21:51:50 GridCube, you still have to have a rationale. :P 21:51:51 +1 21:51:52 +1 received from GridCube 21:51:56 meh. 21:51:57 -1 21:51:57 -1 received from knome 21:52:05 +0 21:52:05 +0 received from bluesabre 21:52:22 well yeah, that'd be more appropriate. 21:52:24 +0 21:52:24 +0 received from knome 21:52:25 -1 21:52:25 -1 received from Unit193 21:52:45 +0 21:52:45 +0 received from mrpouit 21:52:51 +0 21:52:51 +0 received from maddernick 21:53:06 too bad meetingology can only register integers 21:53:09 looks like its up to pleia2 21:53:19 and micahgmobile :) 21:53:22 +0 21:53:22 +0 received from pleia2 21:53:33 * Unit193 thinks he should change his. :P 21:53:46 +1 if we get testers 21:53:46 +1 if we get testers received from micahgmobile 21:54:01 Unit193, nah. it's ok. i wanted to vote +0 to not make it hard with all the veto stuff mentioned on the SD. 21:54:13 but i'd like to make it -0.15 21:54:33 #endvote 21:54:33 Voting ended on: 2 ISO's: one "core" ISO (max. 1GB) and one ~2GB ISO with more languages. yay or nay? 21:54:33 Votes for:2 Votes against:1 Abstentions:5 21:54:33 Motion carried 21:54:45