17:11 <elopio> #startmeeting Community Council meeting, 20180301
17:11 <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Mar  1 17:11:56 2018 UTC.  The chair is elopio. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
17:11 <meetingology> 
17:11 <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
17:12 <elopio> We start the meeting with elacheche, wxl, flexiondotorg and elopio present. marcoceppi, ahoneybun and jose missing.
17:12 <elopio> #topic report since last meeting
17:13 <elopio> Anybody has work in progress that we discussed on the previous meetings?
17:14 <elacheche> I collected the list of ressources we have, unfortunately, I didn't had time to analyse and ask about our need of those.. The draft is in here → https://pad.tn/p/cc
17:15 <elacheche> we can move it somewhere else later for a final repport for future CC members (and us)
17:15 <wxl> we can remove the GSoC app. too late for that.
17:16 <elopio> elacheche: thanks. Why don't you make it a wiki post on the community hub? Also, do you need help to finish this task?
17:16 <elopio> wxl: yep, didn't happen. Which I think was a good call, we need some time to rest from all the mentoring earlier in the year. Maybe, for next year, we can apply together with debian.
17:17 <elacheche> elopio: I will do that on the Wiki or the Hub once it's done, so we can have a final article about this in there.. And yes I need your personnal feedback (all CC folks) about the use of those ressources and why not we add a priority usage rating
17:18 <elacheche> We have multiple Wiki legacy pages, we can learn from those I guess.. But all new activities were moved to the hub (I don't like it, I like wiki more, but after all that's a personnal pref)
17:19 <elopio> elacheche: yes, we agreed in previous meetings to give a try to the hub. We can still discuss about it if you want, but for now, we should follow that and put everything there.
17:20 <elopio> I'm concerned about those 70 wiki pages, that's a lot to review. I can give you a hand with that, see what's old and we can drop, and what would be useful to update.
17:21 <elopio> anything else to talk about related to work in progress?
17:23 <elopio> I will take that as a no.
17:23 <ahoneybun> no
17:23 <elopio> since we don't have any topics on the agenda, flexiondotorg, elacheche and wxl, if you have something to discuss, please say so.
17:23 <elopio> I would like to talk a little about these meetings
17:23 <flexiondotorg> Not from me
17:24 <wxl> i would agree with that idea
17:24 <elopio> lets start with that, and you can add other topics as we go.
17:24 <elopio> #topic community council meetings
17:25 <elopio> we tried rotating the role of the person who leads the meetings every month. That didn't happen very well, not just because of the leaders, but also because we have had a hard time adjusting since the christmas holidays.
17:25 <wxl> i don't think having leaders is the problem
17:25 <elopio> unless somebody else wants to take this role, I will keep doing it.
17:26 <elopio> and at any time, if somebody thinks we should go back to rotate, or try a different approach, just say it and I will step down.
17:26 <wxl> i think the bigger issue is getting everyone to show up
17:27 <wxl> or even communicate that they're not going to show up
17:27 <elopio> yes, that's what I want to talk about next.
17:27 <elopio> This time I made a small change on the template with the call for the meeting.
17:28 <flexiondotorg> I'm happy to contribute more to the running of these meetings.
17:28 <elopio> it's very boring to be pinging everybody every day as the meeting approaches. So I would like all of us to reply on that topic saying if you are going to come, or not.
17:28 <flexiondotorg> I've been busy in recent months.
17:28 <flexiondotorg> I think getting up front commitment to attend is a good idea.
17:28 <wxl> i think the assumption should be that you WILL show up and the responsibility will be on the person who is not showing up to make sure everyone knows
17:28 <wxl> this only makes sense
17:28 <wxl> i don't call into work every day and confirm with them that i'm coming in. do you guys?
17:29 <elopio> flexiondotorg: what kind of contribution would you like to do? Taking the leader role? something else?
17:29 <flexiondotorg> Perhaps we could automate a reminder for the CC members.
17:29 <flexiondotorg> elopio: Yeah, chairing the meeting from time to time and getting back to updating the Community Hub.
17:29 <elopio> wxl: my problem is that I don't know if you are not replying because you didn't get the message, or because all's good and you are going to attend
17:29 <elacheche> wxl: +1
17:30 <wxl> elopio: this is why we need to set the expectations
17:30 <elopio> evidence shows that it's neither of those. So in order to see who I need to ping, it's easier for now while we get this under control to get an explicit yes or no.
17:30 <wxl> and the expectation, as members of the council, is that we will attend the meetings
17:30 <elopio> wxl: I agree on that
17:30 <wxl> so *WE* shouldn't have to do anything to accomodate people not showing up
17:30 <elopio> but if we get repeated "no" replies, or "yes" replies but no-show in the end, we can start doing something about it
17:30 <wxl> those people who can't show up need to make it clear that they can't
17:30 <elopio> find a replacement, for example.
17:31 <wxl> the yes/no replies don't really matter so much as the actual attendance
17:31 <elopio> wxl: it matters for who is trying to organize the meeting.
17:31 <wxl> i frankly find it a little silly that we're even discussing this. we are all adults here, right? we show up to the things that we need to show up at and inform affected parties otherwise?
17:32 <wxl> elopio: what difference would it make?
17:32 <elopio> wxl: that's my expectation, but it's not working like that.
17:32 <elopio> wxl: if you say "no", and give a reason, I don't have to continue pinging you all week.
17:32 <wxl> but you shoudln't have to in the first place
17:32 <wxl> that should be a reasonable expectation
17:33 <wxl> this is not a huge team of which we are small outside contributors to. this is a core team of core people. we should consider it crucial to be there
17:33 <elopio> I agree. But we are not there. We are not working that well as a group to trust that everybody will just show up and participate on the meeting.
17:34 <wxl> here's my suggestion: email the list. let everyone know that the expectation is that they will be there. their presence is a requirement for continued membership on the council. then it will work great, i assure you.
17:35 <elacheche> wxl, elopio I think that both of you are right.. The idea of asking for a Yes or No and see if that answer goes with the attendency rate can be useful for doing some stats about this issue and have some real "data".. And maybe the next step should be doing stats about topics progress, because this is an issue too (I know I am being part of this issue :'( but the truth should be said anyways)
17:35 <wxl> as a general rule, you have at least shown up enough to say you couldn't be there, elacheche.
17:36 <elopio> wxl: so, let's set some rules to that. Say, one missed meeting without giving a reason means you are out of the council and we will find a replacement. Something like that?
17:36 <ahoneybun> the meetings are on my calendar but I don't get a notification to remind me so I need to fix that
17:37 <wxl> ahoneybun: yeah, i'd say that's a personal problem not one for the council :)
17:37 <wxl> elopio: yes
17:37 <elopio> works for me.
17:37 <elopio> elacheche: flexiondotorg: ahoneybun: do you agree?
17:37 <elacheche> wxl: honestly,  I don't care if my past self shared the info that he'll be here or not, but if he didn't attend "enough" meetings and didn't contribute to tasks in progress my present self should be excluded from the CC.. And it's good to have stats to know that and help improving things, even if it will lead to exclude myself from the board :)
17:37 <ahoneybun> cross that it's not on my calendar at all
17:38 <ahoneybun> idk the fridge calendar is broken for me or something.
17:38 <flexiondotorg> elopio: Agree with what, ejecting people for not showing up?
17:38 <wxl> elacheche: that's fair. the work does need to get done and there's only a few of us. maybe 4 excused absences and you're out?
17:39 <ahoneybun> elopio, I don't agree. One time is a bit strong
17:39 <elopio> flexiondotorg: not showing up without giving us a reason ahead of time.
17:39 <flexiondotorg> Seems reasonable.
17:40 <elopio> ahoneybun: the following meetings of the year are already scheduled. I think the least we can expect is people saying *all* the times if they are not going to come.
17:40 <elopio> that's not a lot to ask.
17:40 <wxl> one time unexecused is perfectly reasonable
17:41 <wxl> there's a higher amount for execused absences
17:41 <flexiondotorg> Three strikes?
17:41 <elopio> sounds good to me too.
17:41 <wxl> over what time period, too?
17:42 <flexiondotorg> Per year?
17:42 <wxl> i think the 1 unexecused absence should be regardless of time but there should be a time associated with the excused ones
17:42 <elopio> flexiondotorg: I would prefer 6 months.
17:43 <wxl> flexiondotorg: that allows someone to be excused every 2 months
17:43 <flexiondotorg> I think we should have a higher upper limit for excused absence.
17:43 <flexiondotorg> I was thinking about unexcused absence.
17:43 <wxl> i think 3/12 months
17:44 <elopio> so, wait, lets make full sentences, because this is confusing :)
17:44 <wxl> hahahha
17:44 * elacheche agrees with any ratio..
17:44 <elopio> flexiondotorg: are you proposing to allow 1 unexcused absense per year?
17:44 <wxl> i think we do a huge amount of our work in these meetings. they're crucial. we only have 24 of them a year.
17:45 * ahoneybun feels likes he is in high school again.
17:45 <flexiondotorg> I was thinking 3 unexcused absence per year.
17:45 <wxl> we have to keep in mind that even missing 3 of those is pretty dramatic
17:45 <flexiondotorg> Because is demonstrates a trend of not turning up.
17:45 <wxl> ahoneybun: ditto. people not showing up is SO high school
17:45 <elopio> flexiondotorg: no, that's too much. You can excuse yourself 10 minutes before the meeting starts. But if you don't excuse yourself at all, that makes us waste a lot of time.
17:45 <ahoneybun> I've missed a few because I depend on notifications but I think I've fixed it now.
17:46 <ahoneybun> I don't like having to use the Hub to say "Here"
17:46 <ahoneybun> I never go to the Hub anyway
17:46 <elopio> ahoneybun: we need you in the hub.
17:46 <wxl> ahoneybun: then come to irc. or use the mailing list. you have lots of options
17:46 <ahoneybun> elopio, for? I do
17:46 <elopio> but you can tell the leader directly, no need to post.
17:46 <elacheche> ahoneybun: It's not about us (you or me or anyone else).. We as a board should make a such decision of ourselves and for future board.. We see a problem we fix it :)
17:47 <elopio> ahoneybun: we are trying to build the hub, and we need the help of everybody on the council for that.
17:47 <wxl> i couldn't agree with elacheche more
17:47 <ahoneybun> I don't use forums often.
17:47 <elopio> ahoneybun: we need you to post about your tasks in there.
17:47 <ahoneybun> my tasks?
17:48 * elacheche really hate the HUB because people can't edit his posts and help improving them :D x) :p → Wiki ROCKS
17:48 <elopio> Yes, the things you do as part of the council to improve the community. But that's a different topic. If you disagree on using the hub, you should bring that to discussion on the next meeting
17:48 <wxl> can we stay on the topic of these rules  for the time being?
17:48 <elopio> elacheche: saying that you hate the hub all the time doesn't help either :) We noted it when we discussed, and agree to give it a try anyway.
17:49 <ahoneybun> are we close to deciding on the rules for showing up?
17:49 <elopio> I think we have a disagreement
17:50 <elopio> wxl, elacheche and I agreed to be zero tolerant to not showing up without giving an excuse before
17:50 <elopio> ahoneybun and flexiondotorg think we should allow a few of those.
17:50 <elopio> is that right?
17:50 <ahoneybun> at least 1.
17:51 <wxl> i would concede to one throughout one's entire term
17:51 <flexiondotorg> We can make posts in the Hub "wiki posts"
17:51 <elopio> I'm ok with one.
17:51 <elopio> flexiondotorg: do you agree with one instead of three?
17:51 <ahoneybun> 1 out of 48 meetings.
17:52 <ahoneybun> 1/24 x 2
17:52 <elopio> yes.
17:52 <flexiondotorg> People make mistakes. I think one transgression only is too strict.
17:52 <ahoneybun> what about 2 per term?
17:53 <flexiondotorg> A term being 2 years, right?
17:53 <ahoneybun> yes
17:53 <flexiondotorg> I think 2 per year, as a minimum.
17:53 <elopio> I can live with that. wxl?
17:53 <flexiondotorg> So four over the course of the 2 year term.
17:53 <elopio> elacheche says he agrees with any ration, so I'm assuming he's +1 on this.
17:53 <elopio> *ratio
17:54 <wxl> let's go for the middle road: 3/term
17:54 <elacheche> Yep.. The idea is that WE ALL agree about the same principale :)
17:54 <elopio> lol, wxl we were so close to agree to 2/term
17:55 <elopio> alright, 3 per term. flexiondotorg proposed that so he's happy, I'm ok, elacheche and wxl seem to be +1 too. ahoneybun ?
17:55 <ahoneybun> +1
17:56 <elacheche> Great!
17:56 <elopio> #AGREED we will look for a replacement for whoever is absent to the community council meeting 3 times during their term
17:56 <elopio> #agreed we will look for a replacement for whoever is absent to the community council meeting 3 times during their term
17:56 <elacheche> +42
17:57 <flexiondotorg> Agreed.
17:57 <elopio> damn, that command doesn't work.
17:57 <elopio> ok. I will communicate this to the mailing list.
17:57 <wxl> it should go on the hub too
17:57 <elopio> and the hub, where I will post the summary of this meeting
17:58 <elopio> I have another proposal. Just showing up is not enough. I would like everybody to come at least with one topic to discuss or report to make, per month.
17:59 <elopio> how does that sound? We can't enforce that, but sounds to me like a reasonable expectation, we should all be doing something every month.
17:59 <elacheche> +1 too
17:59 <ahoneybun> expectation not requirement.
17:59 <wxl> i agree with expectation rather than requirement
18:01 <ahoneybun> anyone else?
18:01 <elopio> yes. We will have stats to collect looking at the agendas, to confront somebody who is only attending the meetings, without doing any useful work. It's just something that will trigger us discussing if that person should continue on the council, not something that will expell them immediately.
18:02 <ahoneybun> I think useful work is bringing their POV to a problem and offering a solution.
18:02 <ahoneybun> Not always bringing something to do.
18:02 <elopio> ahoneybun: not enough. We should expect a lot more than that.
18:02 <ahoneybun> mm.
18:02 <elopio> and I'm sure there's other people in the community who are willing to work more than just attending a meeting twice a month.
18:03 <wxl> i think we should write all this up
18:03 <wxl> so people know what it means to be on the council
18:03 <elopio> I think we need to realize that if we are not doing a good job on the council, we need to step down and let somebody else replace us.
18:03 <wxl> +1 elopio
18:04 <elacheche> +1 elopio
18:06 <elopio> I think this is just food for thought now. We have one strong rule defined now: attending the meetings. We can continue discussing about the role and expectations, and write them down as wxl suggests.
18:07 <ahoneybun> agreed
18:07 <elopio> maybe, topic for next meeting: bring your expectations from your council peers? We can discuss them and see if we agree on a few.
18:08 <ahoneybun> add it to the hub.
18:09 <wxl> i think that's a reasonable idea, elopio
18:09 <elopio> I have nothing else to discuss. Any other topic ahoneybun, wxl, elacheche, flexiondotorg?
18:09 <ahoneybun> nope.
18:10 <elopio> 10...
18:10 <flexiondotorg> Not this time.
18:10 <elopio> 9...
18:10 <elopio> 8...
18:10 <elopio> 7...
18:10 <elopio> 6...
18:10 <elopio> 5...
18:10 <elopio> 4...
18:10 <flexiondotorg> But I have an idea, for next meeting.
18:10 <elopio> go for it flexiondotorg
18:10 <flexiondotorg> Next time :-)
18:10 <wxl> mine might be for next meeting too
18:10 <elopio> ah, ok, make sure to add it to the agenda
18:10 <wxl> or we need to schedule a time to work on it specifically
18:10 <elopio> 3...
18:10 <elopio> 2...
18:10 <elopio> 1...
18:11 <wxl> and that's frmo the last agenda i put together: going over CoC bugs
18:11 <elopio> I will prepare the next meeting, unless somebody else wants to lead that one. If so, just ping me any time.
18:11 <elopio> thank you for coming, and making proposals, and discussing!
18:12 <elopio> #endmeeting