14:14:59 <tumbleweed> #startmeeting Developer Membership Board
14:15:00 <meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 19 14:14:59 2012 UTC.  The chair is tumbleweed. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
14:15:00 <meetingology> 
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14:15:17 <tumbleweed> #topic Review of previous action items
14:15:28 <tumbleweed> stgraber: is the wiki up to date, there?
14:15:45 <tumbleweed> they all belong to micahg, as usual:
14:15:49 <tumbleweed> micahg to document the zentyal packageset
14:15:50 <tumbleweed> micahg to ask docs people if they want to apply for a packageset
14:15:56 <stgraber> tumbleweed: yep
14:16:04 <tumbleweed> so, moving on
14:17:17 <tumbleweed> #topic Core Developer Application for Wookey
14:17:24 <tumbleweed> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Wookey/DeveloperApplication
14:17:31 <tumbleweed> wookey: would you care to introduce your application?
14:18:19 <wookey> erm, yes.
14:18:51 <wookey> I've been a DD for over a decade, and recently have been doing some Ubuntu work as side-effect of being in Linaro
14:19:09 <wookey> I've doing things that affect $everything: cross-building, and multiarch
14:19:34 <wookey> And when debian is frozen it makes sense to upload things to ubuntu directly
14:20:10 <wookey> I've been filing patches for some time now and have been encouraged to apply for actual membership so I can do stuff without having to pester others for Ubuntu uploads
14:20:38 <wookey> Obviously I can do Debian uploads as required already
14:21:11 <wookey> that's the core of it
14:21:28 <tumbleweed> thanks
14:21:33 <tumbleweed> questions for wookey?
14:22:20 <wookey> currently I'm doing the arm64 bootstrap, mostly in Ubuntu because the multiarch state is much more advanced here
14:22:29 <barry> sorry folks, system problems this morning :(
14:24:29 <wookey> look - shiny results: http://people.linaro.org/~wookey/buildd/quantal-arm64/sbuild-ma/status-bootstrap.html
14:25:45 <tumbleweed> I assume everyone is still busy re-reading your appplication (or twiddling their thumbs or something)
14:25:54 <tumbleweed> wookey: are you subscribed to ubuntu-devel-announce?
14:25:57 <wookey> Or there are no questions :-)
14:26:08 <wookey> tumbleweed: I don't think so
14:26:24 <wookey> Easy enough to fix
14:26:26 <xnox> wookey: did any of ubuntu / lp systems require two names?
14:26:37 <bdrung> i just checked xdeb. the current situation looks good.
14:26:41 <tumbleweed> thanks, it's where freezes etc are announced
14:26:50 <wookey> xnox: not that I recall - pleasingly little agravation on that front
14:27:08 <xnox> wookey: ok cool.
14:27:08 <wookey> yes xdeb is in maintenance mode now really
14:27:13 <xnox> (for context http://wookware.org/name.html )
14:27:22 <wookey> multiarch is the one true way forward
14:29:17 <wookey> OK. subscribed to ubuntu-devel-announce
14:29:49 <barry> wookey: you have experience in developing software for debian, ubuntu, and linaro.  how would you compare the workflows, and what do you think would be the 1-3 most important things to do to improve developing and sharing s/w across all three communities?
14:30:03 <wookey> The presuambly tell me when we enter 'stopped syncing' and 'feature freeze' etc?
14:30:22 <wookey> Hmm. potentially long-answer question :-)
14:30:47 <wookey> I was surprsied how much difference there is in internal process between debian and Ubuntu.
14:30:57 <barry> wookey: agreed
14:31:02 <wookey> That part is almost completely different in many ways
14:31:28 <wookey> Linaro was effectively just camping on ubuntu processes/machinery for 1st two years, but is now trying to separate itself
14:31:56 <wookey> I think the sharing part is much more about culture than process
14:32:34 <wookey> I pretty-much ignored Ubuntu for years, probably like many DDs as 'just another derivative' and not really anything I had to take much notice of beyond getting occaisional patch back
14:32:48 <wookey> And that was just habit.
14:33:05 <bdrung> what changed then?
14:33:11 <wookey> BUt once I had a reason to use it I found some thing easier to get done in Ubuntu than debian, due to very-fast patch turnaround
14:33:45 <wookey> I got a job where a) official desktop was Ubuntu (ARM), and images being produced were ubuntu (linaro)
14:34:22 <wookey> Now that I understand the Ubuntu processes I view Debian and Ubuntu as essentially 'the same thing'
14:34:45 <wookey> And just do work fixes in both as much as possible, with a bias to doing it in Debian first as that's less work all round
14:35:18 <wookey> I think zak has done a great job of getting Debian and Ubuntu to ignore each other less
14:35:45 <barry> wookey: quick question: when you work on ubuntu packages, do you generally apt-get source or bzr branch?
14:36:04 <wookey> So I guess the answer to the question is 'nurture the projects that encourage upstreaming and cross-distro work'
14:36:19 <wookey> I'm old-fashion - I apt-get source
14:36:37 <wookey> I was just reading the merging page and thing that maybe I should look at useing that work-flow
14:36:42 <wookey> thinking
14:37:09 <wookey> Because it'll be easier to keep moving patches forward that aren't fully upstremaed yet.
14:37:16 <barry> wookey: cool, thanks for your answers (there's no right or wrong answer, i am just curious :)
14:37:29 <stgraber> wookey: So, let's say you want to get mythtv into precise-updates on the 15th of January 2013 for a fix that's just been published upstream. What would you do and what can you do?
14:37:36 <wookey> It is hard work keeping track of patches in quantal/raring/unstable/experiemntal
14:38:32 <wookey> I'd go read the ubuntu developer docs, and then probably ask someone to check
14:38:54 <wookey> One good thing about ubuntu is that process is _much_ better documented than debian
14:39:55 <stgraber> how much do you currently know about the SRU process? did you do any SRU?
14:40:07 <wookey> I have done a couple of SRUs yes
14:40:48 <tumbleweed> after this question is complete, we'll go to a vote
14:40:57 <stgraber> ok, so if you get a fix into Debian experimental that you want into precise-updates, where should you upload that fix?
14:42:10 <wookey> sorry someon asking questions here
14:42:51 <wookey> I was wondering today whether Ubuntu ever pulls from experiemntal. The docs say only from testing or unstable
14:43:01 <wookey> So I presume you never do that.
14:43:23 <stgraber> well, you can manually sync from experimental, syncpackage lets you do that, we just don't do it automatically
14:44:01 <stgraber> so let's say you have the new version into raring (as it's where it needs to land first anyway), where do you go from there to get it into precise-updates?
14:44:08 <bdrung> we often sync from experimental when debian is in freeze
14:44:25 <wookey> OK, so I guess I'd file an SRU requesting tosync/merge the version from experiemental
14:45:44 <stgraber> tumbleweed: I guess we're out of time, we probably should vote now
14:45:50 <tumbleweed> yeah
14:45:55 <wookey> I don't know. I'd ask #release on IRC
14:46:28 <tumbleweed> #voters stgraber barry tumbleweed bdrung Laney
14:46:28 <meetingology> Current voters: Laney barry bdrung stgraber tumbleweed
14:46:40 <tumbleweed> #vote grant wookey core-dev rights?
14:46:40 <meetingology> Please vote on: grant wookey core-dev rights?
14:46:40 <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
14:47:56 <stgraber> +0 [Not satisfied regarding the knowledge of Ubuntu processes but on the other hand, I'm sure wookey will ask before doing anything he doesn't know]
14:47:56 <meetingology> +0 [Not satisfied regarding the knowledge of Ubuntu processes but on the other hand, I'm sure wookey will ask before doing anything he doesn't know] received from stgraber
14:48:46 <barry> +0 [more familiarity w/ubuntu process would be good, but i think by asking lots of question for bits you don't know, you'll be okay]
14:48:46 <meetingology> +0 [more familiarity w/ubuntu process would be good, but i think by asking lots of question for bits you don't know, you'll be okay] received from barry
14:50:25 <tumbleweed> +1 [ I'm also concerned about the ubuntu process knowledge, I am fairly confident that this wouldn't be dangerous to the project, but would expect more from a core-dev ]
14:50:25 <meetingology> +1 [ I'm also concerned about the ubuntu process knowledge, I am fairly confident that this wouldn't be dangerous to the project, but would expect more from a core-dev ] received from tumbleweed
14:50:40 <tumbleweed> err that was supposed to be +0, edting ftl
14:50:48 <tumbleweed> +0
14:50:48 <meetingology> +0 received from tumbleweed
14:51:13 <tumbleweed> bdrung: ?
14:53:32 <bdrung> +0 [ same option as the other voters ]
14:53:32 <meetingology> +0 [ same option as the other voters ] received from bdrung
14:53:44 <tumbleweed> #endvote
14:53:44 <meetingology> Voting ended on: grant wookey core-dev rights?
14:53:44 <meetingology> Votes for:0 Votes against:0 Abstentions:4
14:53:44 <meetingology> Deadlock, casting vote may be used
14:53:52 <tumbleweed> pish, meetingology
14:54:35 <tumbleweed> wookey: I'm sorry we couldn't accept your application right now. I suggest getting a little more experience with the procedures around SRUs and freezes
14:54:51 <wookey> yeah. fair enough. It wasn;t me that said I was ready :-)
14:55:13 <tumbleweed> hope to see you again soon
14:55:21 <wookey> I've usually dealing with unstable /letest, so have not worried about SRUs much
14:55:47 <tumbleweed> #topic Dmitry Shachnev's PPU application for retext and unity-mail
14:55:51 <mitya57> Hi barry, bdrung, stgraber, tumbleweed!
14:56:00 <barry> hi mitya57
14:56:06 <tumbleweed> mitya57: hi, we're able to run over time a little
14:56:10 <stgraber> wookey: I have no doubt that you are ready from a technical point of view but the freezes and SRU processes are important when contributing to the Ubuntu project so I hope to see you apply again soon
14:56:13 <tumbleweed> so, we should be able to process your application
14:56:21 <tumbleweed> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DmitryShachnev/PPUApplication
14:56:30 <tumbleweed> mitya57: please introduce yourself and your application
14:56:56 <mitya57> OK
14:57:00 <mitya57> I'm developer of ReText editor and some other smaller projects, usually written in Python
14:57:12 <mitya57> In Ubuntu, I'm involved with my apps, their dependencies, and some python stuff
14:57:28 <mitya57> Last week I was, for example, adding/fixing dep-8 tests for pygments, python-markdown and nose
14:57:46 <mitya57> Earlier this cycle I was involved with Python 3.3 transition of sphinx/python-docutils
14:58:02 <mitya57> I'm also Ubuntu packaging guide contributor and do some other random things
14:58:52 <mitya57> ... and I'm also Debian maintainer (since this spring) and member of some teams there (Python + JavaScript)
14:59:53 <mitya57> I would like to start with these two packages because these are my "oldest" ones and I've done more uploads for them than for anything else
15:00:05 <tumbleweed> I saw very little discussion of your Debian work on your application. For reference - http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=Dmitry%20Shachnev
15:01:15 <mitya57> tumbleweed, in fact, I'm having 4 unsponsored items in Debian right now, so that list will grow soon
15:01:17 <mitya57> (I hope)
15:01:20 <tumbleweed> :)
15:01:30 <tumbleweed> any questions for mitya57?
15:01:59 <bdrung> mitya57: why is unity-mail a native package?
15:02:29 <mitya57> bdrung, because it was written exclusively for Ubuntu and I maintain packaging in the same branch as source code
15:03:30 <bdrung> mitya57: maybe one day unity can be deployed on other systems than Ubuntu (e.g. Debian). will it be still good to have it as native package?
15:04:08 <mitya57> bdrung, I think it is possible to change format in future
15:04:16 <mitya57> but right now I don't see any need
15:04:42 * Laney phases in
15:04:52 <mitya57> Hi Laney
15:05:01 <barry> mitya57: how painful has it been working with quilt in udd branches?
15:05:46 <bdrung> barry: very painful (that's what i remember from my last try)
15:05:58 <mitya57> barry: for example, patches are stored applied by default but when I create a new patch, it doesn't get applied by default
15:06:18 <barry> mitya57: i know ;}
15:06:30 <mitya57> and also there are some packages whose maintainers don't care about making them build twice in a row,
15:06:43 <mitya57> so when you clone such a package from udd it won't build
15:06:49 <barry> mitya57: perhaps the build tools should help enforce that?
15:06:52 <mitya57> "nose" is my recent example
15:07:21 <mitya57> barry, of course, but I meant it's not perfect _by default_
15:09:39 <barry> mitya57: in the meantime, we could improve the docs i suppose.  i can't recall anywhere where this issue is even discussed (though it comes up in sponsor reviews)
15:11:05 <tumbleweed> mitya57: where you paying attention earlier, and did you subscribe to ubuntu-devel-announce?
15:11:24 <mitya57> tumbleweed: I am subscribed
15:11:38 <mitya57> "where" — you mean Debian vs Ubuntu?
15:12:07 <mitya57> If so, Ubuntu of course :)
15:12:08 <tumbleweed> *were
15:12:41 * tumbleweed is tired, long day of fighting fires at work
15:13:03 <tumbleweed> mitya57: so, when do we expect you to come back with a MOTU application?
15:14:25 <mitya57> tumbleweed, If I were writing my application today, I would apply for MOTU. But I was writing it in September (and today was the first slot suitable for me)...
15:14:45 <mitya57> ... so I decided to leave it as is.
15:15:59 <tumbleweed> it'd be nice to see work on a wider range of packages, for that
15:16:48 <mitya57> tumbleweed, that's in progress :)
15:16:57 <tumbleweed> as a DM, I assume you're already familiar with the upload process?
15:17:58 <mitya57> Yes, I am. The only difference is that our uploads are source-only, right?
15:18:01 <tumbleweed> yup
15:18:03 <tumbleweed> and you've the Ubuntu tools for syncing, finding merges you need to do, etc?
15:18:10 <tumbleweed> you've *seen*
15:18:25 <mitya57> yes, I have seen that
15:18:27 <tumbleweed> bdrung: you have a question?
15:18:29 <bdrung> mitya57: How does it come that you do your work in Debian first?
15:19:02 <bdrung> (besides the Ubuntu-only unity-mail)
15:19:03 <mitya57> bdrung, I had read that the Debian is primary place to upload new packages to, so I went there...
15:19:56 <bdrung> good to see that we communicate it clearly :)
15:19:57 <mitya57> ah, you said "do", not "did"
15:20:39 <mitya57> The ideal workflow for me is getting a package uploaded to Debian, and then getting it synced
15:21:08 <bdrung> the tool syncpackage is handy for doing the sync
15:21:31 <mitya57> bdrung, I meant that when I said I was familiar with the tools
15:22:14 <tumbleweed> ok, looks like we're done with questions
15:22:42 <tumbleweed> #vote grant mitya57 PPU rights on retext and unity-mail?
15:22:42 <meetingology> Please vote on: grant mitya57 PPU rights on retext and unity-mail?
15:22:42 <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
15:22:59 <Laney> +1 looking forward to you coming back to apply for MOTU soon with a little more experience
15:22:59 <meetingology> +1 looking forward to you coming back to apply for MOTU soon with a little more experience received from Laney
15:23:03 <bdrung> +1
15:23:03 <meetingology> +1 received from bdrung
15:23:07 <barry> +1
15:23:07 <meetingology> +1 received from barry
15:23:09 <tumbleweed> +1
15:23:09 <meetingology> +1 received from tumbleweed
15:24:09 <tumbleweed> stgraber?
15:28:43 <stgraber> +1
15:28:43 <meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
15:29:02 <tumbleweed> #endvote
15:29:02 <meetingology> Voting ended on: grant mitya57 PPU rights on retext and unity-mail?
15:29:02 <meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
15:29:02 <meetingology> Motion carried
15:29:35 <bdrung> mitya57: btw, do you want to become an uploader (in Debian) of ubuntu-packaging-guide?
15:29:41 <tumbleweed> mitya57: welcome, we hope to see you back soon for MOTU rights
15:29:58 <tumbleweed> #topic any other business?
15:30:10 <mitya57> bdrung, I won't be against that
15:30:35 <mitya57> \o/ thanks everybody!
15:30:35 <bdrung> mitya57: feel free to add yourself to the list in the bzr branch.
15:30:38 <tumbleweed> next chair: barry
15:31:08 <tumbleweed> backup: cody-somerville
15:31:15 <tumbleweed> anything else?
15:31:53 <bdrung> reducing the after-meeting-things-to-do list
15:32:13 <bdrung> can we reduce or automate the paperwork?
15:33:29 <tumbleweed> not trivially, that i can think of
15:35:27 <tumbleweed> looks like we've run out of things to say
15:35:37 <tumbleweed> #endmeeting