#title #ubuntu-meeting Meeting Meeting started by dholbach at 16:01:31 UTC. The full logs are available at http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-05-24-16.01.log.html . == Meeting summary == *meeting times ''ACTION:'' dholbach to mail list about meetings times (dholbach, 16:08:00) *MOTU School (Bhavani Shankar) ''ACTION:'' mail Bhavani with info about MOTU School discussions, CC everyone who showed interest in the topic (dholbach, 16:19:04) *review https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/FAQ/New_Draft (Bhavani Shankar) *Update from Developer Advisory Team ''LINK:'' http://daniel.holba.ch/blog/tag/developer-advisory-team/ (vibhav, 16:32:30) *Review https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/BugFixingInitiative (dholbach) ''ACTION:'' broder to update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/BugFixingInitiative with new thoughts and clever ideas (dholbach, 16:38:36) ''ACTION:'' asomething to review https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.subscriber=ubuntu-reviewers&field.tag=patch and add a few to the bug fixing page (dholbach, 16:45:19) *any other business ''LINK:'' https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-packaging-guide/ (dholbach, 16:50:18) ''LINK:'' https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-packaging-guide/+bug/961936 has more of this discussions (dholbach, 16:51:31) ''ACTION:'' dholbach to update minutes and wiki page (dholbach, 16:57:23) Meeting ended at 16:59:44 UTC. == Votes == == Action items == * dholbach to mail list about meetings times * mail Bhavani with info about MOTU School discussions, CC everyone who showed interest in the topic * broder to update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/BugFixingInitiative with new thoughts and clever ideas * asomething to review https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.subscriber=ubuntu-reviewers&field.tag=patch and add a few to the bug fixing page * dholbach to update minutes and wiki page == Action items, by person == * asomething ** asomething to review https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.subscriber=ubuntu-reviewers&field.tag=patch and add a few to the bug fixing page * broder ** broder to update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/BugFixingInitiative with new thoughts and clever ideas * dholbach ** dholbach to mail list about meetings times ** dholbach to update minutes and wiki page == People present (lines said) == * dholbach (135) * vibhav (41) * ajmitch (20) * micahg (13) * highvoltage (13) * asomething (11) * tumbleweed (8) * meetingology (8) * broder (5) * ubottu (3) * geser (2) * pleia2 (2) * porthose (1) == Full Log == 16:01:31 #startmeeting 16:01:31 Meeting started Thu May 24 16:01:31 2012 UTC. The chair is dholbach. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. 16:01:31 16:01:31 Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired 16:02:01 this is the first MOTU meeting in a long while, so please bring up whatever you want to discuss, even if it's not yet on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings 16:02:20 #topic meeting times 16:02:41 when we discussed this at UDS, the proposal was 2nd & 4th Thursday, 16 UTC 16:03:01 back then we already realised that this might be bad for some 16:03:18 bad for a few :) 16:03:37 it's right over lunch time EST, but I can live with it. 16:03:54 ajmitch, isn't it insane o clock where you are? :) 16:03:55 highvoltage: it's the middle of the night for ajmitch 16:04:07 oh, o/ btw :) 16:04:12 4AM 16:04:12 looking at the wrong window 16:04:24 geser dug out the meeting times of the last MOTU meetings and it seems we alternated between 4:00 UTC, 12:00 UTC and 20:00 UTC 16:05:11 and AFAIK the new RMB teams will meet at 10 and 20 UTC to try to cover most of the world 16:05:27 any strong feelings about either of the possibilities? :) 16:05:34 * ajmitch is still of the opinion that rotating meeting times is only useful if you'll have enough people show up 16:05:54 dholbach: 12 and 22 16:06:08 thanks pleia2 - I was close, wasn't I? :) 16:06:11 :) 16:06:45 we could trial one of the solution for a couple of months 16:07:12 any strong feelings or should we move this to the mailing list? 16:07:31 o/ 16:07:37 to the list! 16:07:54 alrightie 16:07:59 o/ 16:08:00 #action dholbach to mail list about meetings times 16:08:00 * meetingology dholbach to mail list about meetings times 16:08:03 moving on 16:08:13 #topic MOTU School (Bhavani Shankar) 16:08:38 it's unfortunate that Bhavani can't make the meeting, but he wanted us to briefly talk about MOTU school and ideas for this cycle 16:09:10 I think there was a work item in the blueprint as well 16:09:16 does anyone still have it in front of them? 16:09:45 can't see a workitem https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-q-motu-bof 16:09:59 bhavani is in UTC+6 right? 16:10:04 I think the idea was to have a couple of training sessions throughout the cycle 16:10:17 highvoltage, UTC+5h30m I think 16:10:30 highvoltage: UTC+0530 16:11:19 ok, I can't find the action right now, but I think it was Bhavani (and others) who wanted to have some training sessions this cycle, not as often as weekly, but every now and then 16:11:34 to provide an entry point for new contributors 16:11:49 I think we could probably swing a few sessions, I just don't want to start promising regular sessions again and then fail 16:11:50 it's a nice idea, as long as someone's willing to run them 16:12:24 maybe we could discuss a few ideas and collect a list of people who won't volunteer, but at least want to be involved in the discussions? 16:12:36 if it is only one or two sessions, that should be easier to staff, than a week-long UDW 16:13:09 yes, it should be a lot easier, if we would for example do a Q&A session or a "demo a bug fix" session 16:13:14 which doesn't huge amounts of preparation 16:13:20 ... require ... 16:13:44 do we have any reasonably new contributors here with some requests for training sessions? 16:13:51 me 16:14:24 vibhav, what would you like to see discussed in one of those sessions? 16:15:12 The debian/rules file 16:15:17 maybe I'm going a bit off-cource, but it might be nice to have some kind of a list of people who'd like to attend beginners training, and every time there's 5 or so people in that list a session is scheduled. when there's small groups of enthusiastic people then google hangouts might be nice for that too. (and as I'm typing that I'm already dreading all the problems that come with google hangouts) 16:15:29 It took me some time to understand it :) 16:15:38 highvoltage, nice idea 16:16:03 vibhav, yes - sounds good 16:16:13 asomething, maybe we can even steal some of the content for the packaging guide :-) 16:16:52 highvoltage, I'd really like to get semi-regular hangouts going - as an experiment this cycle 16:17:01 sure, there's also stuff that's been done before that we can update: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Packaging/Training/Logs 16:17:14 ah yes, that might serve as a great basis 16:17:21 dholbach: nice :) 16:17:24 it really doesn't hurt to repeat topics 16:17:47 everytime at UOW or UDW there's new folks who listen to the same "get started" sessions :) 16:18:10 ok, that sounds like a good start for Bhavani and others :) 16:18:25 everyone OK, if I mail Bhavani and CC the lot of you? :) 16:19:04 ok :) 16:19:04 #action mail Bhavani with info about MOTU School discussions, CC everyone who showed interest in the topic 16:19:04 * meetingology mail Bhavani with info about MOTU School discussions, CC everyone who showed interest in the topic 16:19:09 sure 16:19:24 #topic review https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/FAQ/New_Draft (Bhavani Shankar) 16:19:39 Bhavani updated the MOTU FAQ and wanted us to have a look at it 16:20:00 That FAq is a bit short 16:20:01 I think it'd be good if we all quickly went through it and commented in here, so he can review the log later on 16:20:24 there are definitly language issues to sort out (I almost sat down and edited it, but wanted to chat to him first) 16:20:28 vibhav: if you have some questions you feel should be answered, feel free to ask them in here 16:20:44 ... so they can be addressed 16:20:58 I dont have any questions till now 16:21:24 for "What prerequisites do I need to start off ubuntu development?" I think I could borrow some text from the packaging guide 16:21:27 it would be nice if it had a bunch of packaging related questions and answers. 16:21:38 It may be worth leaving in a question on mentoring that maakes it clear that there isn't any, just use #ubuntu-motu 16:21:41 "Is MOTU Rocket Science?" 16:22:03 tumbleweed: good point :) 16:22:10 does motu get a lot of questions about what ubuntu is? if that's the case then perhaps that page should also link to a more generic ubuntu FAQ first 16:22:35 highvoltage: that also occured to me 16:22:52 we do get lots of questions from new users asking what programming languages they need to know, that could probably be better addressed in the FAQ 16:23:00 yep 16:23:10 tumbleweed: *nod* 16:23:20 it sounds like we can very easily fix a couple of things in there, and also merge the missing old content from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/FAQ 16:23:35 A question like: Do I need to know any programming languages for MOTU? 16:23:40 yes 16:24:07 I think if we all take just a couple of minutes after meeting we should be able to sort most of this out very easily 16:24:26 dholbach: I thought it was no, one can contribute to MOTU by only bringing upstream changes to Ubuntu or backporting fixes 16:24:53 vibhav: can you elaborate? I'm not quite sure I understand 16:25:41 bringing upstream fixes in and backporting them is definitely a good way to contribute - not the only one, but definitely a good one 16:26:06 vibhav, I think dholbach was saying "yes, we need that question in the FAQ" not answering it yes 16:26:12 it would be nice if we could link to my "where's the right place to submit my fix!?" flowchart once it exists :) 16:26:39 dholbach: Sure, For example: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/accountsservice/+bug/873784 , Fixing it in Ubuntu only requires one to copy the changes from upstream and preapre a debdiff 16:26:41 Launchpad bug 873784 in accountsservice (Ubuntu) "reload_passwd uses fgetpwent rather than getpwent, ignoring /etc/nsswitch.conf" [Undecided,Confirmed] 16:26:48 hush you stuipid bot 16:26:54 yes, that's definitely a good way to contribute 16:27:16 SO, Apparently, You dont need to know any programming language 16:27:42 Just a knowledge of the debian build toolchain :) 16:27:46 it helps, but there are tasks where you don't need to know much yet and where you can learn as you go :) 16:28:09 alrightie, we should probably just all take a look at it later on - I'm sure Bhavani will appreciate it 16:28:13 shall we move on? 16:28:17 sure 16:28:30 #topic Update from Developer Advisory Team 16:28:38 in many cases it's more important to know the policies around the languages, like python or perl or ruby each have their own additional policies and tricks in addition to the usual packaging things 16:29:15 PHP, R, haskell... 16:29:40 highvoltage, yep - I'm sure we can phrase it in a general and reassuring way still :) 16:29:51 asomething, broder, huats: did any of you prepare anything update-wise? :) 16:30:03 micahg: dont forget C# 16:30:08 heh, I didn't even realise that that could sounds scary 16:30:10 nope, i haven't had time to do anything :-/ 16:30:10 sorry 16:30:38 dholbach, I didn't get around to much DAT wise in the past week 16:30:39 the only thing I have from the advisory team is: in the last 3-4 weeks we had 5 people joining ~ubuntu-dev which is great :) 16:30:53 and also we have the first very new people contributing to quantal 16:31:14 although I expect more new folks getting involved in fixing their pet bug in precise still 16:31:33 asomething, broder: I didn't get much done either - more in the next week :) 16:31:48 any questions for the advisory team people? 16:31:55 what is the Developer Advisory Team? hearing it the first time 16:32:06 oh ok 16:32:17 top-secret cabal 16:32:30 http://daniel.holba.ch/blog/tag/developer-advisory-team/ 16:32:44 forgive me, if I quote from the wiki page 16:32:46 This team in terms of UbuntuDevelopment, tries to fulfill the following tasks in the Ubuntu world: 16:32:46 Reach out to new contributors, thank them for their work and get feedback. 16:32:46 Reach out to people who might be ready to apply for upload rights and help them. 16:32:46 Reach out to contributors that went inactive and get feedback from them and offer help. 16:33:09 A seperate channel dedicated for new contributors run the the DAT for questions might help 16:33:32 the idea of it was to close some of the gaps in process by social means - currently on the team are asomething, huats, broder, bhavi, warp10 and myself 16:33:54 the team has been in place since some time in the last cycle 16:33:56 Does the DAT have a facebook page or something 16:34:15 -motu itself is quiet enough, I don't think a separate channel is necessarily a good idea 16:34:21 dholbach, is your lightning talk about DAT from UDS online? 16:34:29 and a report of the outreach to new contributors has largely been put together by asomething here: http://people.ubuntu.com/~andrewsomething/dat/ 16:34:45 Or the Ubuntu Developer Page on G+ could congratulate people who have got their first fixes into Ubuntu 16:34:49 asomething, I don't know 16:35:19 vibhav: up until now the DAT has mostly been reaching out to new contributors on a personal level - we never wanted it to become a mentoring team 16:35:31 ah 16:35:37 we felt that #ubuntu-motu or the motu mailing list were much better candidates to answer all kinds of questions 16:35:58 geser, does that sort of answer your question? 16:36:05 yes 16:36:23 ok cool 16:36:41 any more questions? 16:37:00 ok, moving on then :) 16:37:13 #topic Review https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/BugFixingInitiative (dholbach) 16:37:54 hey guys - need to run early. don't give me too many actions ;) 16:38:15 another thing we discussed at UDS was to have regular bug fixing initiatives during the cycle and to use some of the time of the MOTU meetings to review the list and announce if afterwards, so new contributors have some predictably easy tasks to get started with 16:38:27 broder: that's just asking for it.. 16:38:34 that's like fixit fridays right? 16:38:36 #action broder to update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/BugFixingInitiative with new thoughts and clever ideas 16:38:36 * meetingology broder to update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/BugFixingInitiative with new thoughts and clever ideas 16:38:38 thanks broder 16:38:43 What about a sponser-it-$DAY ? 16:39:06 highvoltage: right, but getting the list together of things to work on beforehand 16:39:18 highvoltage, yes, but we'd keep the list up until the next motu meeting - so more like a "fix it week" or "fix it 14 days" :) 16:39:28 heh, ok 16:39:36 vibhav: I would hope that the patch pilots would handle that 16:39:36 highvoltage: also deals with all the newbies coming into the channel saying "what can I help with" 16:39:48 ah fine 16:40:09 so does the page look generally alright to you? anything we should change or add? 16:40:43 it's a good start for the week, we don't want to overload people with 500 things to fix 16:40:46 the speling-errors-in-description are just for ubuntu packages, so we should be able to more easily get them in 16:41:04 ajmitch, any other tasks we should be featuring? (maybe for intermediate contributors) 16:41:20 dholbach: security CVE fixes :) 16:41:25 dholbach: backporting fixes? 16:41:34 vibhav: like which? from which list? 16:41:39 the perennial favourites of the rc bugs list which I'll rewrite any day now(tm) 16:41:45 micahg, if we can curate a list of a few which should be reasonably easy - that'd be awesome 16:41:54 dholbach: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/HighlightedPackages 16:42:08 * micahg isn't sure if they're easy though 16:42:11 security fixes is a good one 16:42:19 dholbach: I dont know any lists though, but we could create a list for backporting fixes 16:42:20 they don't have to be easy 16:42:29 micahg, awesome - just to be sure we could pack it into the "experienced contributors" section 16:42:55 vibhav: the problem with curating lists of easy tasks is that it's easier if you have a list you can pick them off 16:43:36 micahg, would you be fine with those bugs being on the UbuntuDevelopment/BugFixingInitiative page? 16:43:48 Eg: A bug reported from 1.04 is fixed in an SRU in 11.10; There could a list for "SRUs missing from the Ubuntu version they have reported" 16:44:01 dholbach: sure, though the list changes every week, so you might just want to link to the page 16:44:22 micahg, nice 16:44:40 I liked the idea of teaching about patch systems by finding a few good patches from: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.subscriber=ubuntu-reviewers&field.tag=patch 16:44:56 I can take an action item to add a handful to the wiki page 16:45:02 awesome 16:45:19 #action asomething to review https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.subscriber=ubuntu-reviewers&field.tag=patch and add a few to the bug fixing page 16:45:19 * meetingology asomething to review https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.subscriber=ubuntu-reviewers&field.tag=patch and add a few to the bug fixing page 16:45:40 But that would require some help from Launchpad too :) 16:45:53 I also added the lists you mentioned to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/BugFixingInitiative/Organisation so it will be easier next time to pick tasks :) 16:46:15 well, over half the archive should be source format 3.0 by now 16:46:31 ok, I think that should have us set up to announce our first bugfixing initiative early next week - what do you think? 16:46:48 sounds good 16:46:55 +1 16:46:55 awesome 16:46:57 dholbach: A list for fixing easy lintian errors 16:47:21 Like "Outdated Standards Version" 16:47:36 changing the source format to 3.0 16:47:43 ... etc 16:47:49 the issue with many of them is that these changes would better be done in Debian 16:47:54 well... sometimes those are better to fix in debian 16:48:09 so we can sync the changes and not keep a delta just for a string change which almost has no impact 16:48:09 I almost forgot that 16:48:23 vibhav: but if you can think of something really easy for new contributors, feel free to add it to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/BugFixingInitiative/Organisation 16:48:31 sure 16:48:43 thanks 16:48:51 #topic any other business 16:48:59 * dholbach reloads agenda page 16:49:18 no, nothing new on there -- does anyone have anything they'd like to talk about? 16:49:29 let me think 16:50:00 Could the packaging guide be translated? 16:50:06 yes! 16:50:10 ha, great you're asking! 16:50:14 (Though it sounds silly) 16:50:18 https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-packaging-guide/ 16:50:31 dholbach: well, maybe towards the end of the cycle, helping Debian reduce their RC bug count once they're frozen 16:50:31 Oh wait, it can be 16:50:47 and the translations updates will automatically flow into trunk 16:51:06 micahg: that should be sometime next month, probably worth doing that after feature freeze 16:51:19 we are currently figuring out how we can deliver these changes in Ubuntu (separate packages for separate languages, etc.) and to figure out how complete we want translations to be before we ship them 16:51:31 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-packaging-guide/+bug/961936 has more of this discussions 16:51:32 Launchpad bug 961936 in Ubuntu Packaging Guide "Only ship translations which accomplish a certain level of completion" [High,Triaged] 16:51:38 micahg, yes, totally 16:51:44 dholbach: I agree 16:52:16 micahg, on the bug fixing initiative page we have some instructions for how to submit fixes to debian for packages which are not ubuntu-only 16:52:41 in the future we might want to collaborate with the debian-derivatives to pick a few targets we want to advertise 16:52:43 dholbach: yes, but I'm talking about gleaning the Debian RC bug list that's unfixed and submitting patches 16:52:45 dholbach: Lintian error for Ubuntu-only packages 16:53:05 then we can sync the fixes to Ubuntu 16:53:05 micahg, yep, exactly 16:53:44 sounds great to me - would you like to start doing that now already or in one of the next bug fixing initiatives? 16:53:53 micahg: I've got some work items about the reverse RC bugs page, where we've fixed something in ubuntu 16:53:57 gah, I forgot to do my work item of writing the criteria for dropping universe packages not in Debian 16:54:36 micahg, ^? :) 16:55:13 "check for packages that are worth removing from the next release" 16:55:30 dholbach: I think later in the cycle is fine (once Debian is frozen and that RC bug list is the release criteria) 16:55:45 vibhav: yes, that's an action in here: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-q-motu-bof :) 16:55:48 dholbach: I think https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-packaging-guide/+bug/961936 should be for all packages in the Ubuntu Archive 16:55:49 Launchpad bug 961936 in Ubuntu Packaging Guide "Only ship translations which accomplish a certain level of completion" [High,Triaged] 16:55:50 micahg: run wild with that chainsaw, please :) 16:55:56 micahg, ok, great - I'll keep you in mind for that :-) 16:56:28 vibhav: maybe it'd be a good topic to discuss in #ubuntu-translators 16:56:34 is there any other business? 16:57:23 #action dholbach to update minutes and wiki page 16:57:23 * meetingology dholbach to update minutes and wiki page 16:57:28 do we want to pick a chair for next time? 16:57:30 dholbach: here's a handy link foe the Debian bug initiative: http://upsilon.cc/~zack/hacking/debian/rcbw/ 16:58:14 micahg, thanks, noted on the ..../Organisation page 16:58:26 yeah, we can't make you chair them all :) 16:58:47 dholbach, not if we don't know what time next time is 16:58:48 broder volunteered, didn't he? :) 16:58:54 especially if we should decide in the meantime that all meetings are going to happen at 4 my time :-P 16:58:58 ajmitch, haha 16:59:02 asomething, yes :) 16:59:15 ok, let's leave it open until next time, then - I'm sure we'll find somebody 16:59:19 but I'll add it as a standing agenda item 16:59:24 thanks a lot everyone 16:59:26 There should be an FAQ on how does one apply to be a maintainer for an orphaned package 16:59:29 this was an awesome MOTU meeting 16:59:30 thanks 16:59:40 * dholbach hugs you all 16:59:44 #endmeeting Generated by MeetBot 0.1.5 (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology)