#title #ubuntu-meeting Meeting Meeting started by Laney at 19:06:06 UTC. The full logs are available at http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-08-15-19.06.log.html . == Meeting summary == *MOTU Application for Brian Thomason *Ubuntu Core Developer Application for Scott Moser ''LINK:'' https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScottMoser/DeveloperApplication (Laney, 19:30:38) *Ubuntu Core Developer Application: Chase Douglas Meeting ended at 20:14:13 UTC. == Votes == * Brian Thomason to join MOTU For: 2 Against: 0 Abstained: 0 * Chase Douglas to join ~ubuntu-core-dev For: 2 Against: 0 Abstained: 0 * Scott Moser to join core-dev, server-dev, MOTU For: 2 Against: 0 Abstained: 0 == Action items == * (none) == People present (lines said) == * Laney (116) * cnd (67) * iamfuzz (58) * meetingology (26) * smoser (25) * geser (14) * broder (2) * micahg (1) == Full Log == 19:06:06 #startmeeting 19:06:06 Meeting started Mon Aug 15 19:06:06 2011 UTC. The chair is Laney. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot. 19:06:06 Useful Commands: #topic #action #link #idea #voters #vote #chair #action #agreed #help #info #endmeeting. 19:06:48 I think it's best to skip "Rename UCD/UUC to Ubuntu Development Members" until there are more people around to discuss it 19:07:12 it arose from a conversation on -devel about UCD being confusing 19:07:39 or we can bring it up on devel-permissions 19:08:01 iamfuzz smoser cnd: you ready? 19:08:06 * iamfuzz is ready 19:08:07 I am 19:08:07 I am ready 19:08:09 Laney: I agress to move it to the next meeting, a discussion about a more clear name could be done on devel-permissions and/or ubuntu-devel 19:08:13 ok great 19:08:33 alright, so we're going to do the 'interview' stage today and then defer voting to email 19:08:39 sounds good 19:08:58 since 3 members are away/travelling and 1 has resigned 19:09:00 (:() 19:09:09 :-( indeed 19:09:15 [topic] MOTU Application for Brian Thomason 19:09:15 TOPIC: MOTU Application for Brian Thomason 19:09:27 hey iamfuzz :-) can you quickly introduce yourself? 19:09:43 Sure, I'm Brian Thomason, and I've been doing packaging work professionally for about 9 years 19:10:00 I started with Lindows/Linspire, and joined Canonical a little over 4 years ago 19:10:13 I've been doing work in Universe for about 2 years now 19:10:35 and currently maintain all packages in the Canonical partner repo, and all For Purchase apps in the software center, along with 5-10 packages in universe 19:11:08 and for the record, this is my second MOTU application 19:11:19 :-) 19:11:32 how do you think packaging for partner differs from packaging in the main archive? 19:11:46 quite differently in most cases 19:11:47 do you stick to the standard Ubuntu release cycle? 19:12:00 no, not at all 19:12:12 we are at the whim of the ISV in most cases 19:12:29 we transition packages starting at Beta 1, and attempt to have them all migrated before RC1 19:12:39 iamfuzz: you mentioned in your wiki page that also some free software is in the partner archive. is there a reason why it's in the partner archive and not the main repository? 19:12:46 However, Partner is always open and doesn't have the concept of pockets, such as -updates or -security 19:13:11 geser, yes, the free software that resides there is Openbravo, Alfresco, and Jonas 19:13:23 These ship many binary jars 19:13:36 rather than using those provided in the archive or even compiling them from source at build time 19:13:39 ah, the usual java trouble 19:13:42 this has prevented their transition to universe 19:14:19 most vendors refuse to do so as they wish to certify one build, rather than, in their minds, an additonal "Ubuntu" build 19:14:26 do you think it would be beneficial for these projects to work out the problems to get themselves into debian / ubuntu? or would it be more trouble than it's worth? 19:14:26 with potential moving pieces (the JAR deps) 19:14:35 could they not go into multiverse? 19:14:58 * Laney finds this quite interesting 19:15:00 Laney, in the case of Alfesco, probably more trouble than it's worth 19:15:09 100+ jars at last count 19:15:20 though as the Java library in Ubuntu grows, it becomes more feasible 19:15:38 for Openbravo, yes, they likely would benefit and we speak with them about this every 6 months but have not as of yet gotten the go ahead 19:15:45 as for Multiverse, it likely could 19:16:01 but they see no benefit there as it isn't enabled by default on most server installs either 19:16:02 I guess part of the problem is that jars don't have proper versioning (API/ABI) 19:16:08 and they enjoy the lax rules of Partner 19:16:15 as well as a commercial relationship 19:16:22 correct 19:16:30 indeed 19:16:33 as well as the fact that they patch many of them to their liking 19:17:22 what are the main differences between the partner repository and the main one? just the relaxed rules? 19:17:36 relaxed rules, no pockets, always open 19:17:58 and the only license criteria that need be met is a distribution agreement with Canonical 19:18:23 that being said, with the relaxed rules, we do our best to make the packages as presentable as possible 19:18:26 I suppose for upstreams it gives them a guarantee hat their software will become available 19:18:34 but it isn't always easy with the binary blobs of goodness we receive :-) 19:18:50 correct, and the warm and fuzzies that they are a "Partner" of Canonical 19:19:17 anyway, to Ubuntu Development. (my standard question) Have you worked with Debian at all? For example forwarding patches 19:19:40 yes, not a ton, but yes 19:19:58 :-) 19:20:00 I worked with Debian to fix the gstreamer-plugins-bad package to not improperly collide with our packages 19:20:07 I've reported many bugs 19:20:12 and submitted a patch to lintian once 19:20:34 am in the process of working on a lintian profile that affects Partner packages 19:20:43 ah, excellent 19:20:56 that's a good development in lintian upstream 19:20:57 I've also worked fairly closely with their java maintainer as he assists with our building of them for partner 19:23:11 finally from me, you mention problems with the release cycle's length as a weakness in Ubuntu 19:23:19 what do yo uthink could be done about that? 19:23:29 I'm not sure there can be much done 19:23:40 I commented on that only because I came from a distribution that released ~every 2 years 19:23:56 which gave ample time for thorough bug testing and the like 19:24:04 emphasise the LTS releases more over the others? 19:24:15 and more importantly in my role, it affects ISV package migrations 19:24:20 the IBMs of the world are slow to move 19:24:25 Yes, in that realm we do 19:24:41 if it's a "server" related package, we almost insist on their following the LTS cycle 19:24:45 which has proven helpful 19:24:47 I'm sure you know well all of the possible upgrade paths that you have to support 19:24:57 but the desktop-oriented offerings obviously have to be transitioned each release 19:25:02 geser: any qs? 19:25:37 no, just want to mention that I like to see that many testimonials on iamfuzz's application 19:25:52 indeed, i had much help along the way 19:26:00 thanks to all 4 of my mentors :-) 19:26:08 yes, they are very strong 19:26:12 good work :-) 19:26:28 geser: shall we vote now or would you prefer all votes on email? 19:27:00 like you like, I send sent my +1 now or with mail 19:27:26 let's vote now, to save some email traffic 19:27:35 [vote] Brian Thomason to join MOTU 19:27:35 Please vote on: Brian Thomason to join MOTU 19:27:35 Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me) 19:27:39 +q 19:27:43 erm, what does that mean? 19:27:45 +1 19:27:45 +1 received from Laney 19:27:48 question? 19:27:56 +1 19:27:56 +1 received from geser 19:27:59 means I can't hit the 1 correctly :P 19:28:03 ;-) 19:28:05 [endvote] 19:28:05 Voting ended on: Brian Thomason to join MOTU 19:28:05 Votes for:2 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0 19:28:05 Motion carried 19:28:19 thanks a lot iamfuzz, watch devel-permissions for more :> 19:28:19 thanks guys, I very much appreciate your taking the time for the interview despite lack of quorum 19:28:27 yeah, sorry about that … 19:28:30 it happens 19:28:33 I seem to be a bad omen too 19:28:37 has happened 4 times to me :-) 19:28:44 heh 19:29:00 people seem to be travelling a lot currently 19:29:03 ah well 19:29:06 that time of year 19:29:15 smoser: here? 19:29:40 here 19:29:48 \o/ 19:30:01 [topic] Ubuntu Core Developer Application for Scott Moser 19:30:01 TOPIC: Ubuntu Core Developer Application for Scott Moser 19:30:09 I'm Scott Moser, I've been contributing to Ubuntu development for the past 2 years. For the majority of that time, I've been the responsible party for creating and releasing the official Ubuntu Cloud Images (UEC), which are ready-to-run images targetted towards running in cloud platforms. I've had PPU upload rights for a few packages for about a year, and have had several sponsored uploads across main, universe and multiverse. 19:30:09 care to give us a quick introduction to yourself? 19:30:12 aha! 19:30:24 my application is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScottMoser/DeveloperApplication 19:30:38 [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScottMoser/DeveloperApplication 19:30:43 ... 19:31:19 I notice that you're explicitly applying for server and MOTU as well. Any reason for that? (not that it's a problem :-) 19:31:46 That was on advice of Daviey, but primarily the ubuntu-server-dev team is interested in boosting numbers to it. 19:32:10 and its membership approval is delegated here. 19:32:14 so 2 birds, one stone. 19:32:38 fair. 19:35:16 am I being waited on ? I just want to make sure I'm not holding anything up. My introduction came before Laney asked for it above (just to make sure it was seen). 19:36:07 too much to read in too little time 19:36:10 smoser: sorry, connection dropped 19:36:46 It is my impression that Ubuntu's cloud offerings have been rather sucessful. Is this accurate? Have you been please with the way they ahve been received? :-) 19:37:19 we have strong reason to believe that our images on EC2 are amoung the most popular to run. 19:38:07 I would say that that is most definitely the largest success we've had. The other thing to point to for success as Ubuntu as a "cloud os" is in Openstack usage. 19:38:39 Ubuntu is OpenStacks' reference platform, and our cloud-images are expected to work there, and used by many. 19:38:42 do the Ubuntu package need many changes to also work in the cloud image properly? 19:39:06 my largest head-butting with Ubuntu has been over grub. 19:39:22 the images are interesting in that we include both grub2 and write/manage a /boot/grub/menu.lst 19:39:38 how much of an intersection is there between server and cloud? Is there ever a conflict there or are they complementary? 19:40:06 grub-pc is included so that they can work as a normal ubuntu installation, and we manage /boot/grub/menu.lst with grub-legacy-ec2 (which is read by the 'pv-grub' "bootloader" on eC2) 19:40:37 i think there is a fairly large intersection between "server" and "cloud" 19:40:57 both ubuntu cloud host and cloud guest really are just package set selections. 19:41:40 and the packages that are improtant there rely heavily on functionality that is common to many ubuntu flavors 19:42:19 from the image perspective, we try to ship something that can easily and rapidly be provisioned into something that does what the user wants. 19:42:39 I guess outside of the 'infrastructure' not much needs modifying 19:43:54 I dont think i follow that. 19:44:06 what did you mean by 'infrastructure' ? 19:45:19 I am using infrastructure to refer to the packages needed to manage your cloud host or guest 19:45:58 well, largely i have ot say "i don't know" to much of that. 19:46:12 we certainly hope that people find the Ubuntu packages that are available in the archive to "just work". 19:46:33 but we give them a nice base, and they're able to use whatever they want to accomplish their task. 19:46:56 geser: any q? 19:47:10 ie, I'm actually not aware if 5% or 95% use the mysql that is packaged. they *could* all install from a binary build. 19:47:14 :-) 19:49:12 Laney: ready to vote 19:49:19 ok 19:50:11 [vote] Scott Moser to join core-dev, server-dev, MOTU 19:50:11 Please vote on: Scott Moser to join core-dev, server-dev, MOTU 19:50:11 Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me) 19:50:17 +1 19:50:17 +1 received from geser 19:51:10 +1 // nice endorsements, and importently a nod to Debian in the application. Please continue to push for upstreaming of work wherever possible (Debian Cloud?) 19:51:14 grr 19:51:19 AlanBell: ^ make that work please ♥ 19:51:20 +1 19:51:20 +1 received from Laney 19:51:31 [endvote] 19:51:31 Voting ended on: Scott Moser to join core-dev, server-dev, MOTU 19:51:31 Votes for:2 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0 19:51:31 Motion carried 19:51:40 smoser: we'll be in touch over email 19:51:49 thanks for turning up :-D 19:51:58 cnd: heya, you here? 19:52:01 yep 19:52:03 thanks. 19:52:39 [topic] Ubuntu Core Developer Application: Chase Douglas 19:52:39 TOPIC: Ubuntu Core Developer Application: Chase Douglas 19:52:51 quick intro? :> 19:52:54 sure 19:53:10 I'm one of the developers of the uTouch multitouch and gesture stack in Ubuntu 19:53:32 like much of the desktop-experience team at Canonical, we do a bunch of upstream development 19:53:38 however, our team is a little unique 19:53:46 we enjoy ubuntu development too :) 19:53:55 so we end up maintaining our own packages 19:54:11 so we do all kinds of development 19:54:13 * Laney likes the sound of that 19:54:18 did you write the packaging for your software? 19:54:28 for most of it, yes 19:54:30 our team did 19:54:48 specifically, I have packaged utouch-qml, utouch-gesturetest, and I have maintained packaging for all our stuff 19:54:57 I also have touched many packages throughout the stack 19:55:05 I started in the kernel team before utouch 19:55:10 so I have been involved there 19:55:20 and I still write patches that go upstream and then trickle back into ubuntu 19:55:24 I see you maintain a package in Debian. Do you think that works well? 19:55:48 tbh, I don't know too much 19:55:51 I wrote the package 19:55:58 and I have stats that show many people use it 19:56:07 you haven't had the pleasure of a bug report yet? :-) 19:56:08 but after a few bug reports initially I haven't heard anything since 19:56:10 ah 19:56:16 so no news is good news I guess :) 19:56:19 well, that's a good sign 19:56:24 I also have worked with debian in other areas 19:56:24 it's not causing you much trouble 19:56:37 I helped merge changes into pm-utils 19:57:00 and I have worked with the ubuntu and debian x teams 19:57:08 is the utouch stuff going to go to debian? 19:57:16 I'm the author of extensive X patches in ubuntu that we are hoping to get upstream into x.org 19:57:18 has anyone expressed interest there? 19:57:25 where it will be slurped into all the distros 19:57:27 or any other distro, for that matter 19:57:36 yes, we have interest from debian, and gentoo, and pretty much everyone :) 19:57:51 right now we have a prototype multitouch XInput extension in our server 19:57:58 which has been a proving ground of sorts 19:58:17 and we hope to have it officially available from upstream by the time 12.04 LTS ships 19:58:25 so we don't have a huge patch to maintain there 19:58:57 that would be great 19:59:10 it would also expand the reach of utouch since it's dependent on the patches 19:59:19 which no one else really wants to ship in their distro 19:59:23 and I don't blame them :) 19:59:29 the stuff needs to get upstream 20:00:15 I see one of your endorsers is someone you have mentored! 20:00:20 yes 20:00:28 that is a bit unusual - how did you find that experience? 20:00:37 great! 20:00:38 something you'd like to carry on if you are approved? :-) 20:00:47 (perhaps by hanging out in #ubuntu-motu, yes yes yes?) 20:00:49 certainly, it's one of th reasons I am coming here 20:01:03 I find it hard to participate in things like patch pilot 20:01:15 there are things one can do without upload rights 20:01:28 but many more things can be done with them to move things along faster 20:01:32 one of the goals of patch pilot was to /not/ require upload rights 20:01:46 I'm not sure that's been a success then... 20:01:51 it's true that it doesn't require it 20:01:54 i'd be interested in working with ways to make the stints more productive if you don't think that has worked 20:01:58 but I feel I don't accomplish much without it 20:02:30 I like to take tasks and see them to completion 20:02:36 I find that helps me make sure things are done 20:02:54 the more things are handed off from one person to another, the less likely it will really reach the finish line 20:03:01 I agree the nature of the work would have to be rather different (not direct sponsorship), but I'm sure we can find ways for people to be helpful even if they can't do the eventual sponsorship 20:03:06 hmm...... 20:03:31 I suppose I shouldn't have been so negative when I said it's not been a success 20:03:34 I feel I can do more 20:03:41 and that's one reason I'm here 20:03:50 no no I kind of foresaw this as something that might happen when we were devising the scheme 20:03:53 I think the program is reasonable 20:04:05 it just works better with upload rights 20:04:29 there are 2k patches in Ubuntu that need a guiding hand 20:04:29 I don't want non-uploaders to feel like they aren't helping 20:04:34 I'm not sure I have any good ideas off the top of my head on how to fix that 20:04:48 for example there is that ^ scheme that I forgot the name of 20:04:53 operation cleansweep 20:04:54 operation cleansweep 20:05:15 anyway, let's speak with dholbach about this another time 20:05:18 sure 20:05:38 geser: q? 20:05:55 it's probably worth pulling barry or poolie or someone else from the bzr team into the discussion, since that was the inspiration for the patch pilot stuff 20:05:57 no 20:06:28 broder: indeed 20:06:46 it'll be the patch pilot first anniversary at florida this year, perhaps we can review it then 20:06:50 not that I know if I'll be there yet 20:08:07 cnd: finally, there is a DMB seat going if you are interested. Regarding the recent thread(s), I apologise for our failings and hope we can work to improve the process :-) 20:08:24 particularly, I'm concerned that you didn't feel able to apply before now and how we can fix that 20:08:24 Laney, heh, I've been thinking very long and hard about that, tbh 20:08:47 Laney, I was hoping it was less than a 2 year commitment 20:09:02 I have ideas on how to make things better 20:09:09 I'm caught because I'm not on the board 20:09:27 and I don't want the board to feel like I'm usurping their role or anything 20:09:51 well, you can get a mandate for your changes 20:09:54 but I also am not sure I can personally commit to being on the board 20:10:02 yeah. I understand. 20:10:24 I'm taking a bit of a break just to reassess 20:10:46 and I don't want to cause harm, even though none is ever intended 20:11:10 things always look different from the other side of the fence, unfortunately 20:11:15 yep 20:11:36 I felt the conversation had some good effects, such as helping me understand what it's like for some board members 20:11:37 personally I think that we have a perception problem, and the reality isn't all that bad 20:11:58 I agree, I think some small tweaks could help 20:12:01 indeed 20:12:50 perhaps you can present your improvements to the board at an IRC meeting when they become formed? 20:12:56 sure 20:12:57 then take them more public after that 20:13:04 to the vote machine! 20:13:20 [vote] Chase Douglas to join ~ubuntu-core-dev 20:13:20 Please vote on: Chase Douglas to join ~ubuntu-core-dev 20:13:20 Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me) 20:13:30 +1 20:13:30 +1 received from Laney 20:13:34 +1 20:13:34 +1 received from geser 20:13:46 strong testimonials, good previous work. rock & roll :-) 20:13:50 thanks chase! 20:13:51 [endvote] 20:13:51 Voting ended on: Chase Douglas to join ~ubuntu-core-dev 20:13:51 Votes for:2 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0 20:13:51 Motion carried 20:13:53 thanks! 20:14:06 will be in touch over email as well, sorry about the quorumness (that is one of our biggest problems imho) 20:14:13 [endmeeting] Generated by MeetBot 0.1.4 (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot)