#title #ubuntu-manual Meeting

Meeting started by godbyk at 19:10:00 UTC.  The full logs are available
at
http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-manual/2012/ubuntu-manual.2012-07-14-19.10.log.html
.



== Meeting summary ==

''LINK:'' http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-Q-1stmeeting   (godbyk, 19:10:16)
 *Attendance

 *Review Precise cycle

 *Menubar / top bar / panel

 *Ubunto 12.10 release schedule
''LINK:'' https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/ReleaseSchedule   (godbyk, 19:40:00)

 *Ubuntu Manual website
''LINK:'' http://wordpress.org/showcase/   (ajmontag, 20:10:32)

 *Spreadsheet

 *Any other business
''LINK:'' http://www.agilefant.org/   (ajmontag, 20:21:13)
''LINK:'' http://www.agile-tools.net/agileprojectmanagement/agilefant.aspx   (ajmontag, 20:21:35)



Meeting ended at 20:23:12 UTC.



== Votes ==




== Action items ==

 * (none)



== People present (lines said) ==

 * godbyk (161)
 * hannie (75)
 * PaddyLandau (54)
 * CrustyBarnacle (35)
 * ajmontag (21)
 * ChrisWoollard (12)
 * TonyP (4)
 * commandoline (4)
 * meetingology (3)



== Full Log ==


 19:10:00 <godbyk> #startmeeting

 19:10:00 <meetingology> Meeting started Sat Jul 14 19:10:00 2012 UTC.  The chair is godbyk. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.

 19:10:00 <meetingology> 

 19:10:00 <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired

 19:10:06 <godbyk> Hello, everyone.

 19:10:14 <godbyk> The agenda for this meeting is available at <http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-Q-1stmeeting>.

 19:10:16 <godbyk> #link http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-Q-1stmeeting

 19:10:16 <PaddyLandau> Hello.

 19:10:21 <hannie> present

 19:10:23 <godbyk> #topic Attendance

 19:10:34 <godbyk> We'll have everyone say 'hi' to collect attendance real quick.

 19:10:41 <hannie> hi

 19:10:49 <PaddyLandau> hi

 19:11:13 <hannie> not a crowd, but no problem :)

 19:11:21 <godbyk> Makes for a short roll call. :)

 19:11:32 <godbyk> Andrew just texted me and said he should be here in 5-10 minutes.

 19:11:43 <godbyk> #topic Review Precise cycle

 19:12:28 <godbyk> Shortly after we released Getting Started with Ubuntu 12.04, I posted a message to the Ubuntu Manual mailing list to collect people's thoughts on what worked well and what didn't during that release cycle.

 19:12:43 <godbyk> I've collected those responses and dumped them into the agenda notes: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-Q-1stmeeting

 19:12:50 <hannie> godbyk, I added a few lines on this at the bottom of the comments

 19:13:19 <godbyk> hannie: Thanks.

 19:13:26 <godbyk> We haven't collected feedback from the public yet.

 19:13:37 <hannie> no, should we?

 19:13:43 <godbyk> I think it's a good idea to do so, but I wanted them to be able to read the manual for a bit first.

 19:13:54 <hannie> Perhaps use the forums?

 19:13:57 <PaddyLandau> May I ask how you collect the comments from the public?

 19:14:04 <godbyk> Now that the manual has been out for a couple weeks, we can put together a survey.

 19:14:28 <PaddyLandau> For future, would it be a good idea to have a survey ready and post the link inside the manual itself?

 19:14:36 <godbyk> A simple way to do it is to use a Google Form and post the link to the forums, Ubuntu Planet blogs, mailing lists, etc.

 19:14:52 <godbyk> If we want a more complex survey, I can install some software on our website to do that.

 19:14:53 <hannie> good idea!

 19:15:00 <godbyk> PaddyLandau: Probably!

 19:15:33 <PaddyLandau> OK, something to keep in mind, then. That would give a much greater response, I think, provided we position the survey request at a couple of suitable points within the manual.

 19:15:35 <godbyk> That's certainly something we can do for 12.10.

 19:15:48 <godbyk> Agreed.

 19:16:00 <hannie> +1

 19:16:18 <godbyk> Let me make a note real quick.

 19:17:03 <godbyk> Okay.

 19:17:40 <godbyk> I'll send an email to the list after the meeting to solicit questions and figure out what we'd like to hear from our readers and other community members.

 19:17:54 <godbyk> Then we can put together a survey and post it to the forums, mailing lists, blogs, etc.

 19:18:08 <PaddyLandau> Good idea. But we should keep the survey very simple, because many people lose patience after 5 or 6 questions.

 19:18:16 <godbyk> I can also set up a feedback@ubuntu-manual.org email address to collect reader feedback and we can print that in the manual as well.

 19:18:18 <hannie> Yes, I agree on that too

 19:18:24 <godbyk> PaddyLandau: +1

 19:18:48 <hannie> So questions must be to the point

 19:18:50 <PaddyLandau> godbyk: Cool.

 19:18:58 <godbyk> Does anyone here have anything to add about how things went last cycle?

 19:19:12 <godbyk> I'll be reviewing the responses over the next couple days and trying to address them as needed.

 19:19:14 <hannie> Yes, about TeX live

 19:19:15 <PaddyLandau> Not from me. I think everything has already been covered.

 19:19:21 <godbyk> hannie: Fire away!

 19:19:29 <hannie> Will this be in the repository as from 12.10?

 19:19:39 <hannie> I thought I had read that

 19:19:44 <godbyk> hannie: TeX Live 2012 was just released a few days ago.

 19:19:50 <PaddyLandau> It's already there. I've uninstalled the old one and installed the new one from the repository.

 19:19:59 <ajmontag> hello, sorry to be late

 19:20:01 <hannie> welcome, ajmontag

 19:20:01 <godbyk> hannie: I *think* that the Debian team has been reworking all of their texlive packages for the past year or thereabouts.

 19:20:09 <PaddyLandau> Hi ajmontag.

 19:20:16 <godbyk> hannie: And I *think* that the new texlive packages should appear in Ubuntu 12.10.

 19:20:21 <godbyk> There is already a PPA for them.

 19:20:32 <godbyk> I've tested the PPA and those packages do work and successfully compile the manual.

 19:20:34 <hannie> ok, we'll see.

 19:20:37 <PaddyLandau> Hannie: It's already there. I've uninstalled the old one and installed the new one from the repository.

 19:20:54 <hannie> ok, PaddyLandau did it work fine?

 19:20:59 <godbyk> So hopefully we'll be able to use the Ubuntu texlive packages in 12.10 to build the manual instead of requiring everyone to install TeX Live from upstream.

 19:21:13 <PaddyLandau> Yes, as far as I know. I've never actually used TeX Live, but at least I know that the installation works.

 19:21:18 <hannie> that's good news then

 19:21:39 <hannie> I'll give it a try tomorrow myself

 19:21:56 <godbyk> ajmontag: Did you have any thoughts on how things went during the last release cycle?

 19:22:05 <godbyk> ajmontag: What worked well and what could be improved?

 19:22:07 <PaddyLandau> Hannie: Let us know how well it works.

 19:22:22 <hannie> godbyk, the 3rd point I had for the comments will be discussed later (spreadsheet authors)

 19:22:28 <hannie> PaddyLandau, I will

 19:22:37 <hannie> hey CrustyBarnacle

 19:22:45 <CrustyBarnacle> Howdy all.. Hey Hannie

 19:22:46 <ajmontag> With this being my first project like this, I dont have much to compare it to, but I think it went smoothly.

 19:22:59 <godbyk> Hey, CrustyBarnacle.

 19:23:20 <godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: We were just discussing how things went during the previous cycle.

 19:23:25 <CrustyBarnacle> Our awesome LaTex-ers and Hannie did an excellent job herding us cats!

 19:23:26 <godbyk> The meeting agenda is here: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-Q-1stmeeting

 19:23:37 <godbyk> I collected the responses we got from the mailing list.

 19:23:49 <hannie> couldn 't do without you guys

 19:23:49 <godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: Good to hear!

 19:24:03 <godbyk> hannie is an excellent cat-herder!

 19:24:15 <hannie> with a whip :)

 19:24:21 <PaddyLandau> +1 for Hannie's involvement.

 19:24:26 <CrustyBarnacle> One thing that could improve, if we continue to use it. Google docs spreadsheet. Did we actually use it to track?

 19:24:38 * hannie starts blushing

 19:25:01 <PaddyLandau> Hannie: LOL

 19:25:01 <godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: c7p and hannie used the spreadsheet quite a bit to track things.

 19:25:14 <godbyk> I generally just emailed them to find out where we were. :-)

 19:25:39 <hannie> I have made a new spreadsheet for Quantal, it will be discussed later

 19:25:54 <CrustyBarnacle> The troubleshooting chapter assignments... I did not get responses ever from the assigned authors.

 19:25:58 * godbyk only *appears* to know what's going. It's really c7p and hannie who keep things on track!

 19:26:12 <CrustyBarnacle> That chapter still needs to be revisited, yes?

 19:26:29 <godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: I think the troubleshooting chapter is a perennial problem.

 19:26:31 <hannie> let me have a look at the old spreadsheet

 19:26:52 <godbyk> It seems that it's difficult to keep that one updated.

 19:27:21 <hannie> It says: Tom to make an outline of the new chapter

 19:27:22 <CrustyBarnacle> Overall though... Communication was great this cycle. Lots of progress emails and quick changes/commits.

 19:27:36 <hannie> Perhaps we should ask Tom Swartz?

 19:27:45 <godbyk> Hey, ChrisWoollard!

 19:27:47 <hannie> hey ChrisWoollard

 19:28:13 <CrustyBarnacle> Howdy ChrisWoolard :-)

 19:28:24 <ChrisWoollard> Hey Everybody

 19:28:26 <hannie> ChrisWoollard, here is the agenda: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-Q-1stmeeting

 19:28:52 <godbyk> Why don't we move on to the Quantal discussion. I think the troubleshooting chapter will likely need to be addressed again during that cycle anyway.

 19:28:57 <ChrisWoollard> thanks

 19:29:15 <godbyk> Slight detour first:

 19:29:25 <CrustyBarnacle> +1 Quantal discussion after detour :-)

 19:29:30 <godbyk> #topic Menubar / top bar / panel

 19:29:55 <godbyk> In an effort to be consistent, Hannie emailed the Ubuntu docs team and others to try to sort out what to call that thing at the top of the screen.

 19:30:16 <CrustyBarnacle> UI references vs user preference/understanding <-- Is that the main thing?

 19:30:18 <ChrisWoollard> sensible

 19:30:37 <godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: Somewhat. And because everyone calls it something different, apparently.

 19:30:38 <hannie> It was quite interesting to read the reactions, also on the forums (thanks PaddyLandau )

 19:31:07 <hannie> The ubuntu docs use menu bar because that is how it is called in the gui

 19:31:08 <CrustyBarnacle> hannie: I was surprised by all the opinions on this one.

 19:31:28 <PaddyLandau> The way I see, we are in a difficult situation. The jargon is "menu bar". But the manual is supposed to be jargon-free (as stated on the website), and the bar is not a menu bar.

 19:31:32 <hannie> Even from jorge Castro :)

 19:32:11 <PaddyLandau> But I think if we stick to standards and simply qualify what we mean when we introduce the term, it will be OK to call it the menu bar.

 19:32:15 <godbyk> PaddyLandau: Though some people said that 'menu bar' (or 'menubar'?) is what appears in the UI.

 19:32:18 <CrustyBarnacle> PaddyLandau: "menu bar" is a UI name, not jargon.

 19:32:20 <hannie> if we want to suggest another term, we should contact the gui developers first

 19:32:29 <CrustyBarnacle> +1 contact devlopers

 19:32:47 <PaddyLandau> Well, my vote is to stick with the jargon ("menu bar") unless we have a good reason to do otherwise.

 19:32:53 <godbyk> I think our best bet is to ensure that the manual's terminology matches that which the user will see in the user interface.

 19:33:00 <hannie> I suggest we use menu bar for the moment (Quantal). What do you guys think?

 19:33:11 <godbyk> We can, in addition, mention synonymous names that they'll find others calling it in the forums and on mailing lists, though.

 19:33:12 <PaddyLandau> godbyk & hannie: Agreed.

 19:33:15 <ajmontag> my vote is for Menubar

 19:33:21 <CrustyBarnacle> menu bar

 19:33:25 <hannie> ajmontag, two words

 19:33:25 <PaddyLandau> Two words, please: "menu bar".

 19:33:29 <godbyk> For example: The menu bar (also called the top bar or the panel) ...

 19:33:44 <ajmontag> ah, agreed.

 19:33:51 <hannie> godbyk, yes we can explain that

 19:33:53 <godbyk> hannie: We should use one or two words -- however it appears in the user interface.

 19:34:09 <PaddyLandau> The same would apply to the Launcher but in reverse: "The Launcher (the left side bar)..."

 19:34:41 <godbyk> Having said that, someone else point out that the global menu may become optional in 12.10 and applications can have menubars in their windows again. In which case the terminology used in the Unity UI may change. So we'll have to keep an eye on that.

 19:34:50 <CrustyBarnacle> Will the agreed upon terms be added to a Style Guide?

 19:35:09 <godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: Yes. I'll try to make sure that all of this makes it into the style guide.

 19:35:20 <godbyk> (The trick then being coercing authors and editors to read the style guide. ;-))

 19:35:26 <hannie> godbyk, the more reason to stick to menu bar for the moment?

 19:35:43 <godbyk> Our of curiosity, how many here have read the style guide (in whole or in part)?

 19:35:59 <PaddyLandau> I have in whole though I admit parts were scanned.

 19:36:02 <ChrisWoollard> I have

 19:36:03 <CrustyBarnacle> Read

 19:36:05 <ChrisWoollard> ish

 19:36:10 <hannie> godbyk, I think it is getting better and better

 19:36:10 <ChrisWoollard> mostly

 19:36:11 <godbyk> hannie: At the moment, I think menu bar is fine. We'll change it if we need to in the future.

 19:36:41 <CrustyBarnacle> Next item? Screenshot?

 19:36:45 <hannie> Perhaps we should mail to everyone that the style guide is a MUST

 19:36:48 <godbyk> I don't think many people need to read the entire guide, actually. If you're not a translator, you don't really need to read the translation chapter, after all.

 19:37:17 <CrustyBarnacle> Doesn't hurt to read it all :-)

 19:37:24 <hannie> godbyk, sorry for asking you about /gls while I could have looked in the style guide

 19:37:30 <PaddyLandau> godbyk: This is a manual that needs a consistent interface. Who would *not* need to read the Style Guide?

 19:37:38 <ajmontag> I glanced through the style guide before I started, then used it as a reference as I went.

 19:37:57 <godbyk> I have been adding things to the style guide as I encounter them when editing the manual as well.

 19:38:09 <godbyk> Do you think it's helpful if I email the list when I add new info to the style guide?

 19:38:20 <godbyk> Or do you you regularly re-download the style guide when you want to reference it?

 19:38:21 <hannie> yes, it is helpful

 19:38:41 <godbyk> Okay, I'll try to do a better job of that in the future, then.

 19:38:42 <PaddyLandau> Yes, definitely helpful. I re-downloaded only when you emailed us.

 19:38:50 <CrustyBarnacle> godbyk: Weekly summary if any updates/changes made?

 19:39:03 <godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: That could work, too.

 19:39:07 <hannie> it reminds people that they should use the style guide more often

 19:39:20 <ajmontag> hannie: +1

 19:39:45 <godbyk> #topic Ubunto 12.10 release schedule

 19:39:59 <godbyk> The release schedule for Ubuntu 12.10 is at <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/ReleaseSchedule>

 19:40:00 <godbyk> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/ReleaseSchedule

 19:40:11 <godbyk> Some highlights are:

 19:40:15 <godbyk> Feature freeze: 23 August

 19:40:15 <godbyk> UI freeze: 30 August

 19:40:15 <godbyk> Beta 2 freeze: 20 September

 19:40:15 <godbyk> Final release: 18 October

 19:40:44 <hannie> I haven'tried this yet, ut can I use Virtual Box while having Ubuntu installed inside Windows (Wubi)?

 19:40:48 <godbyk> The big question is: Do you think we could release the manual on 18 October (or shortly afterward)?

 19:40:50 <hannie> *but

 19:41:14 <godbyk> hannie: I'm not sure. I've never tried that.

 19:41:32 <PaddyLandau> hannie: You can have as many machines as you like on Virtual Box. You can also run more than one at the same time, but beware: you need the RAM! How much RAM does your machine have?

 19:42:01 <hannie> wubi has 30 GB I think

 19:42:21 <hannie> The machine has much more of course

 19:42:24 <PaddyLandau> Sorry, I misread; WUBI is separate from Virtual Box. You can certainly run Ubuntu in Virtual Box while your host is either WUBI or Windows.

 19:42:24 <CrustyBarnacle> off topic... back to manual :-), please :)

 19:42:27 <hannie> hey commandoline welcome

 19:42:39 <PaddyLandau> Sorry. Hannie, we can take this to email.

 19:42:47 <hannie> PaddyLandau, ok

 19:42:50 <commandoline> hi hannie & everyone else

 19:43:07 <godbyk> Hey, commandoline.

 19:43:11 <hannie> godbyk, commandoline is a python expert :)

 19:43:18 <godbyk> commandoline: The meeting agenda is online at http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-Q-1stmeeting

 19:43:31 <godbyk> hannie, commandoline: Ah, excellent!

 19:44:08 <hannie> godbyk, sorry about the VB detour. Just proceed

 19:44:15 <godbyk> hannie: no problem.

 19:44:32 <godbyk> Does anyone have any thoughts on trying to release the manual on 18 October with the final release of Ubuntu 12.10?  Doable?  Insane?

 19:45:03 <hannie> I think most of the Precise manual is reusable

 19:45:04 <ajmontag> I think it would be possible.

 19:45:17 <hannie> therefore it will take less time to write for the new version

 19:45:37 <CrustyBarnacle> Doable. Main changes are screenshots and Troubleshooting?

 19:45:39 <PaddyLandau> Heck, why not? Provided that we can provides "updates" to the installation. If you can install the manual through the Ubuntu Software Centre, can you send updates to it? Then people get the updates automatically?

 19:46:08 <godbyk> The UI freeze is set for 30 August, but we know that there are always lots of UI freeze exceptions and that Canonical likes to dump a lot of last-minute changes in after the fact. (They're sneaky that way.)

 19:46:18 <godbyk> The Beta 2 freeze if 20 September, however.

 19:46:32 <godbyk> At that point, it should be stable enough for us to install it and check to ensure all the details are correct.

 19:46:54 <godbyk> PaddyLandau: I'm not sure. I presume so.

 19:47:06 <PaddyLandau> There's plenty of work. Do we have the manpower?

 19:47:12 <ajmontag> I think we could begin authoring on 20 September (beta 2 freeze)

 19:47:15 <hannie> Beta 2 should be stable enough

 19:47:21 <CrustyBarnacle> So... Final draft: mid-September, Releases: Oct 18?

 19:47:47 <godbyk> Well, final draft would be closer to the release date.. sometime near mid-October.

 19:48:15 <hannie> I will not be available in August, so others will have to take over in that period

 19:48:38 <PaddyLandau> How about this... We aim for final release 17th October (so it's available for the 12.10 release the day after); but accept that if things go wrong, we let the date slip.

 19:48:41 <ajmontag> *if* we begin authoring at the beta 2 freeze, that would likely put our release a month after the Ubuntu release

 19:48:56 <ajmontag> PaddyLandau: +1

 19:50:33 <godbyk> We spent roughly two months on the 12.04 cycle.

 19:50:46 <godbyk> Did that seem like enough time?  Was it rushed?  Did it take too long?

 19:51:04 <ajmontag> I thought it was just right.

 19:51:05 <CrustyBarnacle> Quantal DocumentationStringFreeze : Sept. 20 <-- Can we have a draft to review by then?

 19:51:11 <PaddyLandau> Quite rushed for me, but I prefer it that way; it doesn't drag out.

 19:51:36 <CrustyBarnacle> It was a good amount - Faster then previous cycles, but felt like the right pace.

 19:51:37 <ChrisWoollard> Personally, I was pleased that it was done so quickly. Much better than previous cycles

 19:51:48 <hannie> I think 2 months is just right

 19:51:52 <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: hannie's quite the task-master. ;-)

 19:52:18 <godbyk> Okay, so let's see how two months fits in to the Ubuntu 12.10 release schedule...

 19:52:34 <godbyk> It we release October 18, we need to start work August 18.

 19:52:42 <CrustyBarnacle> If we Release on  Oct. 18, then we start Aug. 16-23-ish? Yes

 19:52:50 <godbyk> Since feature freeze is 23 August, it ought to work out fairly well.

 19:53:03 <PaddyLandau> I think we should release Oct. 17th, the day before the official release.

 19:53:11 <godbyk> We can start taking screenshots after Beta 2 (20 September).

 19:53:18 <PaddyLandau> How long does it take to get into the Ubuntu Software Centre?

 19:53:19 <CrustyBarnacle> +1 to starting at FeatureFreeze

 19:53:33 <godbyk> Were there any phases of our manual's release cycle that seemed too short or too long?

 19:53:46 <godbyk> Did we spent too much or too little time writing or editing?

 19:53:50 <hannie> +1 starting end of August

 19:53:59 <godbyk> Did anyone feel like they were sitting on their hands with nothing to do for a long period of time?

 19:54:05 <ChrisWoollard> Q: Isn't the default wallpater not updated until the release candiate some time

 19:54:11 <hannie> godbyk, that depended on the chapter

 19:54:32 <CrustyBarnacle> godbyk: Waiting for author responses for Troubleshooting. Wasted a lot of time when I had time :-/

 19:54:42 <hannie> ChrisWoollard, I agree on not starting too early with the screenshots

 19:54:55 <godbyk> PaddyLandau: Well, we submit our PDF to the App Review Board and they review it during one of their meetings. They're supposed to meet twice monthly, but another site said their next meeting was a month out when I looked. So they may be meeting at the end of each month instead of every two weeks now.

 19:54:58 <hannie> Let's give the text priority

 19:55:23 <ChrisWoollard> I would say, start the screenshots at whatever point the wallpaper is updated.

 19:55:29 <godbyk> PaddyLandau: If they continue to meet at the end of each month (and they're not swamped), then we should see the manual in the Software Center toward the beginning of November, I expect.

 19:55:30 <CrustyBarnacle> Screenshots after/starting at Beta 2 +1

 19:55:48 <PaddyLandau> godbyk: Can we take the Ubuntu Software Centre to a private email tomorrow to avoid cluttering this chat?

 19:55:58 <ChrisWoollard> Obiously some can be done earlier if they done have the wallpaper

 19:56:09 <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Quite possibly. It seems like they always push UI changes up to the last possible second. It makes taking oodles of screenshots a right pain.

 19:56:26 <godbyk> PaddyLandau: Sure.

 19:57:02 <godbyk> Okay, since we don't have a lot of people at this meeting how about I draft a set of milestones for the 12.10 release of the manual and send it to the list for comments?

 19:57:12 <godbyk> Then we can discuss any objections and changes there.

 19:57:25 <CrustyBarnacle> godbyk: +1

 19:58:07 <godbyk> Okay, next up:

 19:58:12 <godbyk> #topic Ubuntu Manual website

 19:58:26 <godbyk> We've been using the same website for a couple years now and I think it's time we overhauled it.

 19:58:47 <ChrisWoollard> +1

 19:58:51 <godbyk> At the moment, any time we want to change the text on the website, or publish a new manual to the site, I log into the web server and hand-edit a bunch of files.

 19:59:06 <godbyk> It's not a very efficient way to go about doing things and it's prone to error.

 19:59:43 <godbyk> PaddyLandau suggested that we take a look at WordPress as an option.

 20:00:05 <godbyk> And hannie had someone who is poking at the Drupal site that we have at http://test.ubuntu-manual.org to see how awful it may be.

 20:00:24 <PaddyLandau> I far prefer the current site to the test one.

 20:00:29 <ChrisWoollard> Worpress could work. Depends if it does everything we need.

 20:00:35 <PaddyLandau> But I'd avoid Drupal. Although a good site, it takes plenty of work.

 20:00:43 <PaddyLandau> I mean CMS, not site.

 20:01:03 <CrustyBarnacle> Current site looks good.

 20:01:15 <hannie> PaddyLandau, the test site is not usable yet

 20:01:17 <godbyk> Our current site (not the test site) is written in PHP. It has a lot of bugs and I have to update it by hand.

 20:01:26 <PaddyLandau> I am willing to set up a test WordPress site so that we can fiddle and check whether or not it will do what we need without tears and gnashing of teeth.

 20:01:39 <godbyk> I'd like to have a web interface so that others can help maintain the site (e.g., update instructions, publish manuals, etc.).

 20:02:05 <godbyk> PaddyLandau: I was in the midst of replying to your WordPress email when the meeting started.

 20:02:13 <PaddyLandau> WordPress is entirely web-based, and you can assign people various administrator or author.

 20:02:17 <CrustyBarnacle> Wordpress would provide that. It's all PHP to MySQL backend

 20:02:42 <godbyk> PaddyLandau: It looks like the translation stuff you linked to is about translating the WordPress admin pages. I didn't notice anything about translating the content of the blog entries or static pages, though. (I may have missed it, though, so if it's there feel free to point me at it.)

 20:03:13 <PaddyLandau> Ah, sorry. I shall get onto the WordPress forums tomorrow and ask. If there is nothing, it would be more difficult and may not be a suitable solution.

 20:03:18 <godbyk> commandoline: Are you the Marten that hannie spoke of?

 20:03:27 <commandoline> godbyk: I am

 20:04:02 <godbyk> PaddyLandau: The other WordPress questions I had were: (1) it'd be nice to preserve our existing URIs either through WordPress or a .htaccess/mod_rewrite file.

 20:04:17 <godbyk> PaddyLandau: (2) I wonder if we can make the downloads page work under wordpress.

 20:04:39 <godbyk> commandoline: I don't know if hannie saw my reply yet, but the test site (in Drupal) is available on Launchpad. Let me grab the link for you.

 20:04:44 <PaddyLandau> (1) WordPress allows you tailor your URIs, so that's not a problem. You can also use mod_rewrite through .htaccess if you want.

 20:04:51 <godbyk> commandoline: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-website/0.3

 20:04:59 <commandoline> godbyk: nice :)

 20:04:59 <hannie> PaddyLandau, godbyk is it possible to explain in 2 words what this WordPress is?

 20:05:20 <PaddyLandau> (2) That is something I have started to investigate. It is definitely possible, but may need some simple PHP, which I can code.

 20:05:25 <godbyk> hannie: WordPress is primarily a blog engine.

 20:05:51 <godbyk> hannie: But in addition to the usual dated blog entries, you can also create static pages -- pages that don't change frequently -- like those on our existing site.

 20:05:53 <hannie> but what we want is make a new website

 20:06:09 <hannie> aha

 20:06:13 <godbyk> WordPRess provides a web interface so you can create and edit pages/text through the website itself instead of editing the source files directly.

 20:07:08 <CrustyBarnacle> WordPress also allows workflow: Author --> Editor/Approval --> Publish

 20:07:25 <godbyk> If we can get WordPress (or a plugin) to allow us to easily translate the content of the site, I think WordPress would be a good option.

 20:07:36 <PaddyLandau> Hannie: Look at Macleans for an example of a WordPress website: http://www2.macleans.ca/

 20:08:03 <godbyk> We could use its static pages for the stuff that doesn't change much (instructions, information, etc.) and the blog part for posting 'news' items (announcements of new manual releases, requests for help, etc.).

 20:08:14 <hannie> PaddyLandau, I'll have a look at it in a moment

 20:08:41 <godbyk> PaddyLandau: Another option is that we can create a separate site for the downloads page so that WordPress doesn't have to manage that.

 20:09:00 <PaddyLandau> godbyk: Generally, you won't use static pages at all. You use posts, but you set each post to be the type of page you want.

 20:09:30 <PaddyLandau> We also don't need a separate site for downloads (if necessary). WordPress is entirely compatible with concurrent running of static non-WordPress pages on the same site.

 20:09:34 <godbyk> PaddyLandau: Then we'd just need to (1) figure out how to translate WordPress content, and (2) build a downloads page and interface to upload the new manuals [which wouldn't be all that difficult].

 20:09:56 <PaddyLandau> (1) I shall investigate. (2) Definitely possible, just finding the easiest (i.e. most maintainable) way of doing it.

 20:10:05 <PaddyLandau> I shall let the list know when I have some answers.

 20:10:12 <godbyk> PaddyLandau: Thanks!

 20:10:18 <hannie> And how about a site like our translation team wiki: http://wiki.ubuntu-nl.org/community/Vertaalteam

 20:10:30 <ajmontag> here is a showcase of good wordpress sites:

 20:10:32 <ajmontag> http://wordpress.org/showcase/

 20:11:09 <godbyk> hannie: The issue there is that we'd still need a way to translate the site and we'd need a nice downloads page.

 20:11:41 <godbyk> commandoline: If you have any questions about the current website or the test site, feel free to pester me. I may not have all the answers, but I'm happy to try and find them for you.

 20:12:19 <godbyk> commandoline: (I didn't write the code for either of the sites, but I do host both sites. And I've written chunks of the code for the current site.)

 20:12:22 <commandoline> godbyk: ok, thanks. I'll give the test site a look.

 20:12:52 <godbyk> Did anyone else have any questions or comments about the Ubuntu Manual website?

 20:13:21 <CrustyBarnacle> next topic?

 20:13:55 <godbyk> #topic Spreadsheet

 20:14:04 <godbyk> I think this might just be some notes that hannie added.

 20:14:13 <godbyk> One thing I might suggest we consider, however:

 20:14:44 <godbyk> If we can find someone who's interested in helping us with some web development work, we could have them create a web page for us to track the status of the chapters.

 20:15:12 <CrustyBarnacle> godbyk: Any way to use launchpad for this?

 20:15:14 <godbyk> So instead of using the spreadsheet, they could use our website and see what our current phase/milestone is, what needs to be done, what's already been done, who's responsible for doing what, etc.

 20:15:21 <PaddyLandau> There's probably a tool already available on the Internet to do this.

 20:15:36 <PaddyLandau> Why not Google Docs?

 20:15:37 <hannie> I want to suggest the following:

 20:15:43 <godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: Possibly, I'm not sure.  I tend to get lost frequently when I try to do stuff using Launchpad.

 20:15:48 <TonyP> godbyk: A wiki page?

 20:15:49 <ajmontag> There are lots of programs for tracking software development progress, and we may find something that can let us post online.

 20:15:57 <godbyk> PaddyLandau: Probably. Well, the current spreadhseet is using Google Docs.

 20:16:05 <godbyk> TonyP: I was thinking something a bit more structured.

 20:16:10 <CrustyBarnacle> godbyk: Agreed, unfortunately...

 20:16:19 <ajmontag> Agile software development tools would be something to look for

 20:16:26 <godbyk> ajmontag: Would you like to poke around and see if you can find something simple that would fit our needs?

 20:16:32 <PaddyLandau> What specifically are you looking for? Project management?

 20:16:38 <ajmontag> godbyk: working on it

 20:16:45 <TonyP> godbyk: I could never get anything on the Google doc

 20:16:53 <godbyk> It'd be nice if an author could log in and update their status on the chapter.

 20:17:06 <godbyk> Then everyone can see that chapter 5 is 65% rewritten.

 20:17:14 <godbyk> And chapter 3 has been 30% edited.

 20:17:28 <hannie> godbyk, we can share the spreadsheet with all team members

 20:17:29 <godbyk> And that way hannie knows who to whip. ;-)

 20:17:53 <godbyk> hannie: Do the team members update the spreadsheet themselves or do you and c7p handle the updates?

 20:18:02 <hannie> thus everyone can add the status of his chapter

 20:18:28 <godbyk> We can try that. I'm not picky. It was just a thought. :)

 20:18:31 <hannie> godbyk, so far it was just me and c7p, but I can share this one with all our members

 20:18:53 <godbyk> #topic Any other business

 20:19:08 <godbyk> Okay, was there anything else that anyone wanted to discuss before we end the meeting?

 20:19:27 <hannie> I do not have any questions

 20:19:34 <PaddyLandau> No more from me.

 20:19:43 <CrustyBarnacle> nope

 20:19:45 <TonyP> Just want to apologise for getting to the meeting so late

 20:20:07 <godbyk> TonyP: Ah, no worries.

 20:20:14 <godbyk> Not everyone can make every meeting.

 20:20:19 <godbyk> We're happy when anyone shows up. :)

 20:20:20 <hannie> oh, c7p will send an email to all authors of Precise, asking if they want to work for the new version

 20:20:31 <godbyk> hannie: Ah, great!

 20:20:39 <TonyP> You are so kind!

 20:20:49 <hannie> I will do the same to our editors

 20:20:55 <godbyk> hannie: Perfect!

 20:21:01 <godbyk> hannie: I'll sit back and watch you and c7p work.

 20:21:11 <ajmontag> Here is some agile software (web based and free)

 20:21:13 <ajmontag> http://www.agilefant.org/

 20:21:33 <ajmontag> here is a review and a screen:

 20:21:35 <ajmontag> http://www.agile-tools.net/agileprojectmanagement/agilefant.aspx

 20:21:44 <ajmontag> disclaimer: I have never used this before :P

 20:22:31 <PaddyLandau> Are you sure it's web-based? The website talks about downloading the software.

 20:22:31 <godbyk> ajmontag: Cool. Thanks!  I'll take a look at it.  I think we probably only really need the review/overview screen. It doesn't have to be too detailed.

 20:22:35 <hannie> ok, guys, it's time to relax. Thank you all for coming. Let's make Quantal even better!

 20:22:48 <PaddyLandau> Thanks for holding the meeting.

 20:22:53 <godbyk> Thanks, everyone.

 20:22:59 * PaddyLandau waves goodbye.

 20:23:05 <godbyk> I'll email the meeting minutes to the list soon.

 20:23:06 <hannie> godbyk, thank you for being chai

 20:23:12 <godbyk> #endmeeting



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