19:05:13 <godbyk> #startmeeting
19:05:13 <meetingology> Meeting started Sat May 19 19:05:13 2012 UTC.  The chair is godbyk. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
19:05:13 <meetingology> 
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19:05:28 <godbyk> #topic Roll call
19:05:34 <godbyk> Thanks for coming everyone.
19:05:51 <godbyk> If you're here for the meeting, please say 'hello' for our roll call.
19:05:58 <tomswartz07> Hello
19:06:01 <c7p> hello
19:06:02 <stillnotcool> hello
19:06:03 <herat> hello
19:06:04 <TonyP> hello
19:06:28 <thorwil> hello
19:06:46 <godbyk> Thanks!  If anyone comes in late, meetingology should catch them.
19:06:53 <godbyk> #topic Author updates and status reports
19:07:11 <godbyk> The deadline for the first draft is May 31.
19:07:28 <c7p> here you can see the status every single section http://bit.ly/I0SAXe
19:07:32 <godbyk> All of the new content should be written and the screenshots should be in place by then.
19:07:46 <godbyk> To the authors: Have you encountered any problems or do you have any questions so far?
19:07:57 <stillnotcool> "Learning More" should be all set
19:08:09 <godbyk> Does anyone think they won't be able to make the May 31 deadline?
19:08:12 <stillnotcool> Obviously, this is not a mission-critical chapter :)
19:08:17 <stillnotcool> But I do enjoy maintaining it
19:08:18 <tomswartz07> None in my sections so far. Just need to do some finishing touches and screencaps
19:08:35 <herat> None in my section.
19:09:02 <godbyk> That's quite comforting to hear! :-)
19:09:18 <c7p> herat screens are pushed on the branch ?
19:09:20 <godbyk> Though, I suppose it's more likely that the authors I need to worry about are the ones who aren't at the meeting. ;-)
19:09:31 <c7p> y maybe :D
19:09:35 <stillnotcool> ha! true
19:09:41 <herat> c7p: Yes.
19:09:55 <godbyk> c7p: Were there some issues with the Troubleshooting chapter?
19:09:55 <c7p> cool so is finished almost finished ?
19:10:11 <c7p> yap will talk about it next
19:10:54 <herat> c7p: Yes. It is finished. :)
19:10:59 <c7p> cool
19:11:19 <c7p> well
19:11:38 <c7p> from the desktop chapter i got almost no feedback from John
19:11:46 <c7p> Hannie must doing well
19:12:10 <c7p> what concerns me most is the first part of that chapter that is very important and doesn't have an author
19:12:19 <sayantandas> hello
19:12:25 <sayantandas> everyone
19:12:26 <c7p> hey sayantandas
19:12:35 <sayantandas> finally managed to login to irc!
19:12:45 <c7p> :D glad to hear that
19:12:51 <tomswartz07> c7p: which chapter is missing an author?
19:12:58 <c7p> yap
19:13:19 <c7p> i 've sent a message to the list but nobody seemed interested
19:13:38 <c7p> or maybe John did but i got scarce feedback from him
19:14:08 <c7p> we'll need one or two to get assigned to it
19:14:34 <c7p> i don't think many have to change there but that section has to be the most well-written
19:14:50 <c7p> cause it's very critical in my opinion
19:14:57 <tomswartz07> can we just flip an editor to review it?
19:15:05 <godbyk> c7p: I agree that that section is most critical to understanding how to use Unity/Ubuntu.
19:15:38 <c7p> tomswartz07: maybe, that could help,
19:15:57 <c7p> is anyone interested in helping with that section ?
19:16:07 <tomswartz07> i figure, if there arent too many changes, it should be no issue for an 'editor' style review
19:16:30 <TonyP> I will review it, if that would help
19:16:45 <c7p> cool, thx TonyP
19:16:53 <TonyP> Just point me at it
19:17:01 <c7p> we need an author too to write the HUD section
19:17:26 <sayantandas> if any chapter requires input, i may be able to help..
19:17:39 <c7p> and maybe the chapter has to be reorganized for a better understanding, i'm not sure about that though
19:17:49 <c7p> good to know
19:17:57 <sayantandas> i have the sound menu for review; i have seen changes are quite little
19:18:24 <c7p> cool
19:19:00 <c7p> then the Additional software section
19:19:13 <c7p> i have not feedback from its author
19:19:26 <c7p> herat could you manage it ?
19:19:42 <godbyk> Hello, che.
19:20:07 <c7p> *additional software section is in the Software management chapter
19:20:08 <Guest67191> He guys, sorry I'm late, rushed off my feet here :)
19:20:13 <herat> c7p: Yes, I could do that.
19:20:13 <c7p> hello Guest67191
19:20:35 <c7p> herat: nice, thx
19:20:46 <Guest67191> <--kereltis
19:21:31 <c7p> hm, anything else to be said in this topic ?
19:22:10 <godbyk> c7p: Did we find authors for all the sections that need them?
19:22:44 <c7p> Anthony will do the office suite and totem sections
19:23:00 <c7p> and then troubleshooting chapter need author
19:23:03 <c7p> or authors
19:23:26 <c7p> tomswartz07 and Kev Quirk are interested from what i remeber
19:23:41 <c7p> if nobody appears for that chatper
19:23:51 <godbyk> c7p: Okay. Let's try to get that sorted out over the next couple days. If need be, we can put out another call for authors for those sections.
19:23:52 <tomswartz07> sure, id be willing to work on it.
19:24:12 <c7p> godbyk: yea
19:24:31 <sayantandas> i am ok to work for HUD + my existing sections
19:24:49 <godbyk> #topic Troubleshooting chapter
19:24:55 <godbyk> c7p: Did we cover the troubleshooting chapter already?
19:25:01 <c7p> tomswartz07: could you manage the a part of this section or make an outline for it ?
19:25:11 <c7p> nope i don't think so
19:25:22 <tomswartz07> surely. what do you need done?
19:25:34 <c7p> sayantandas: ok good :), we'll talk through mail about it
19:26:05 <c7p> 1st i think the chapter needs to be re-written in order to meet today needs
19:26:14 <c7p> not much have changed there since 10.04
19:26:24 <c7p> at least that's my impression
19:26:48 <c7p> so section have to be removed, others need update and others need to be added
19:27:07 <c7p> what do you think ?
19:27:51 <tomswartz07> sounds good. Ill work up a detailed outline for the new chapter
19:28:09 <c7p> ah good
19:28:15 <tomswartz07> would GoogleDocs work for everyone, or should I use another service?
19:28:37 <godbyk> tomswartz07: Google Docs should work fine.
19:28:40 <c7p> Kev is also interested so if you need a second hand he should be able to help
19:28:42 <godbyk> Hey, ChrisWoollard.
19:28:49 <c7p> hello Chris !: )
19:28:57 <ChrisWoollard> Sorry I am late. Was putting kids to bed
19:29:04 <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Excuses, excuses!
19:29:13 <Guest67191> Hi Chris
19:29:16 <ChrisWoollard> At least i remembered this time
19:29:28 <c7p> aren't you watching Chelsea ? :P
19:29:30 <ChrisWoollard> Hi Guest67191
19:29:47 <ChrisWoollard> No. Couldn't care less about football
19:29:58 <c7p> fair enough
19:30:04 <tomswartz07> zing!
19:30:07 <Guest67191> brb guys, trying to sort out this name thing
19:30:43 <kereltis> ok, sorted
19:30:43 <godbyk> c7p: Did we get all the authors/chapters discussion sorted?  (That is, shall we move on to the next topic?)
19:30:46 <c7p> ok so tom will make an outline of the new chapter
19:30:53 <tomswartz07> yes
19:31:05 <tomswartz07> ill sort it and share with the mailing list
19:31:05 <c7p> if tom hasn't to say anything else let's proceed
19:31:16 <c7p> :) nice
19:31:32 <godbyk> #topic VirtualBox as a tool for authors and editors
19:31:43 <godbyk> tomswartz07: Did you want to lead this part of the discussion?
19:31:49 <tomswartz07> certainly.
19:32:28 <tomswartz07> ive found that, while working on the manual sections, VirtualBox makes it easier to manage your systems
19:32:56 <tomswartz07> i feel it would be best to give an example.
19:33:26 <tomswartz07> In the Instant Messaging section, there is a section on the 'First Run' dialog, and how you may set up your accounts.
19:33:48 <tomswartz07> unfortunately, its difficult to pull up the first run, well.. after your first run.
19:34:38 <tomswartz07> If you use Virtualbox, you can run a fresh, clean install of Ubuntu, avoiding issues from your own personal customizations
19:35:14 <c7p> hm, that would be highly beneficial especially if we use it for the 12.10,
19:35:29 <tomswartz07> I feel that this would be most helpful for the sections that deal with the desktop and UI elements, as having screenshots with various backgrounds, fonts, etc may confuse
19:36:00 <tomswartz07> the main feature about Virtualbox is that you can take a "Snapshot" that saves the exact machine state.
19:36:19 <kereltis> I agree, I use vbox all the time for testing distros and it's very easy to setup and use
19:36:25 <tomswartz07> so, if you need to redo a 'first-run' menu many times, you just reload that snapshot
19:37:27 <tomswartz07> kereltis: right! its very easy to set up- it installs a basic Ubuntu (or any OS) as a file on your drive, and you run it as a program
19:37:43 <kereltis> yep
19:38:25 <godbyk> tomswartz07: If people are interested in using VirtualBox with the Ubuntu Manual project, it might be useful to have some step-by-step instructions on how to set it up for that use. We could put the instructions on the mailing list and in the style guide.
19:38:40 <tomswartz07> Certainly.
19:38:41 <c7p> good idea
19:38:54 <kereltis> good idea
19:39:22 <c7p> after some releases this guide will be a manual to make a manual :P
19:39:34 <tomswartz07> very meta
19:39:47 <godbyk> c7p: That's the goal. I'm trying to dump all of our how-to's and instructions in there.
19:40:23 <tomswartz07> i guess the idea is, if we all die in a plane crash, everyone will know how to redo the manual
19:40:34 <c7p> btw Kevin, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual works ?
19:40:38 <TonyP> We will need to have a list of standard login id, machine name, etc
19:40:48 <godbyk> c7p: Yes, though it's likely woefully out of date.
19:41:03 <c7p> yes i see it
19:41:36 <thorwil> does virtualbox support some kind of automation?
19:41:45 <tomswartz07> thorwil: what do you mean?
19:42:03 <thorwil> tomswartz07: automating "user" actions
19:42:33 <tomswartz07> no, unfortunately.
19:42:57 <tomswartz07> Virtualbox is made to allow you to run different operating systems at once on the same machine
19:43:12 <tomswartz07> similar to Parallels for Mac, i guess.
19:43:15 <thorwil> being able to write a script that walks through all required states and does screenshots would have been to awesome
19:43:28 <godbyk> thorwil: Agreed. That would've been awesome.
19:43:43 <godbyk> If VirtualBox could've been giving a list of keystrokes and mouse clicks to perform.
19:44:37 <c7p> has anyone checked it http://shutter-project.org/ ?
19:44:38 <tomswartz07> Now, VB can take a screenshot of the system that will work for our manual, provided you set the VB resolution to the proper settings.
19:44:56 <c7p> that sounds interesting tom
19:45:29 <herat> c7p: tried that but did not work perfectly for me.
19:45:52 <tomswartz07> c7p: right?
19:46:33 <tomswartz07> Because the entire OS from virtualbox runs in a program window, you can resize the 'display' to the appropriate setting and snap the screenshots
19:47:01 <godbyk> c7p: Shutter looks nice and appears to have a plugin system. I wonder if the functionality of Quickshot could be incorporated into a Shutter plugin.
19:48:24 <c7p> i ll take a look on it in summer when i'll have more free time
19:48:43 <godbyk> #topic UDS meeting report
19:48:46 <c7p> *i'll look at it
19:49:02 <godbyk> Hannie and I attended the Ubuntu Manual UDS session via IRC.
19:49:12 <godbyk> I'm not sure who else was listening in at the time on IRC.
19:49:30 <kereltis> I missed it
19:49:38 <c7p> me too :(
19:49:41 <ChrisWoollard> missed uds completely
19:49:44 <godbyk> We discussed a bit about the history of the project and a bit about where we wanted to go with it.
19:49:55 <kereltis> was hoping it would appear on youtube
19:50:14 <godbyk> popey posted an email to his LUG and a blog entry asking his readers why they weren't contributing to the manual. You can read their responses:
19:50:31 <godbyk> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/2012-May/thread.html#34095
19:51:01 <godbyk> http://popey.com/blog/2012/05/09/why-not-contribute-to-ubuntu-manual/
19:51:22 <godbyk> Just a sec and I'll find the link to the IRC channel logs.
19:52:27 <TonyP> Well, I responded to popey's email
19:52:43 <kereltis> we ask Jono to include a trophy in his ubuntu trophy project, might help with awarness
19:52:48 <godbyk> Here are the pad notes from the session: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20570/desktop-q-ubuntu-manual/
19:53:35 <c7p> Kevin i think Latex terrifies everyone who checks out getting involved pages !
19:53:55 <stillnotcool> c7p: +1
19:54:02 <tomswartz07> +2
19:54:05 <kereltis> c7p that's a good point
19:54:09 <godbyk> IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/05/09/%23ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-h.html
19:54:12 <c7p> +3 so :P
19:54:37 <stillnotcool> I have been contributing to the manual since the first edition, and I have never once installed or run Latex
19:54:38 <godbyk> The IRC logs consist primarily of me responding to questions and discussion from the people at the UDS session.
19:54:45 <godbyk> (So it'll read as being quite one-sided.)
19:55:08 <thorwil> what's the alternative? docbook isn't necessarily more accessible. the manual written in LO Writer isn't gonna happen
19:55:12 <godbyk> Is it LaTeX itself that's intimidating or the installation process?
19:55:27 <c7p> we can still use Latex
19:55:41 <c7p> but the authors should have the option either to use it or not
19:56:19 <godbyk> We have in the past allowed authors to submit their work in others formats.
19:56:30 <godbyk> Then we have editors manage the LaTeX markup.
19:56:41 <stillnotcool> godbyk: Yes, and I think that went a long way toward encouraging more participation
19:56:45 <godbyk> I'm okay with that as long as the editors as willing to do it.
19:57:33 <godbyk> From the discussions I've had, it seems that people have been more put off by the installation process of upstream TeX Live than in using LaTeX itself.
19:57:40 <godbyk> Do you guys agree or disagree?
19:57:47 <tomswartz07> half and half.
19:58:01 <kereltis> agree
19:58:09 <TonyP> No probs for me even though I have not used LaTeX, but the install was hairy
19:58:09 <godbyk> Unfortunately, I think that the Debian folks are still rejiggering their texlive packages. (They're completely overhauling the way they're organized.)
19:58:11 <stillnotcool> godbyk: Agree.  The installation process involves using the command line
19:58:24 <tomswartz07> i think that many are put off by the massive install base that TeX takes, and the other half assume that you need to be a code monkey to do anything
19:58:25 <ChrisWoollard> I can imagine people just want a ubuntu package.
19:58:29 <kereltis> I'd still prefer to use Libreoffice though
19:58:33 <sayantandas> there is a gui version of latex, and also libreoffice extension.. can we not use either of them?
19:59:08 <godbyk> sayantandas: Well, there are LaTeX editors (basically IDEs for LaTeX) and you're welcome to use those.
19:59:19 <c7p> godbyk: can't we generate a file with the proper options that will be used from installer ?
19:59:21 <godbyk> sayantandas: I don't think that the LibreOffice extensions will work with our manual, however.
19:59:30 <godbyk> c7p: I'm not sure. I'll look into it, though.
19:59:35 <stillnotcool> I'm wondering if authors need to install or use LaTeX at all.  If not, then we might be able to remove all the LaTeX stuff from the "getting involved" instructions
20:00:26 <godbyk> Ideally, I'd love for our authors and editors to be able to do all of the work via a web editor (similar to a wiki but a bit more structured). But we need to do some design work and a lot of coding before that can happen.
20:00:36 <stillnotcool> this might eliminate a critical barrier to entry, allowing folks new to the project (or thinking about getting involved with it) a simple way to do so: Contrat the group, find an editor who needs a writer for a section, and get cracking.
20:01:09 <stillnotcool> *contact
20:01:14 <godbyk> stillnotcool: That's something we can do now. Authors can submit their writings to an editor as long as the editor is willing to convert it to LaTeX for them.
20:02:07 <stillnotcool> Right.  And it's worked well in recent editions.
20:02:24 <c7p> can we use docbook to generate latex code ?
20:02:45 <godbyk> c7p: Yes. Though there will always have to be some fine-tuning of the output.
20:03:16 <godbyk> c7p: I think that the docbook markup is at least as scary as the LaTeX markup, though.
20:03:27 <ChrisWoollard> i agree
20:03:56 <c7p> ok
20:04:26 <stillnotcool> godbyk: I agree. What I'm thinking about might indicate a larger shift in the way we conceptualize the role of author and editor, the division of labor between the two
20:04:43 <tomswartz07> stillnotcool: +1
20:05:10 <godbyk> I completely agree that we should simplify the workflow for authors and editors.
20:05:22 <stillnotcool> The instructions we feature on our home page seem to imply that writers -- in order to write and contribute -- need complex installations of software not already on their machiens, and not even available in the official repositories
20:05:22 <godbyk> And it'd be nice if they didn't have to know anything about LaTeX.
20:05:54 <godbyk> I think that having a web-based editing system would fix those issues for us, and that we should work on creating one.
20:06:17 <godbyk> (Though it obviously won't happen in time for 12.04, it'd be nice if it could be in place for 12.10 or at least 13.04.)
20:06:18 <TonyP> But do they still need to use bzr?
20:06:41 <stillnotcool> TonyP: Ideally, authors would be in charge of writing.  Anything else is icing, gravy.
20:06:41 <TonyP> That's just as scary
20:06:52 <stillnotcool> Here's what Hannie and I do for Chapter 8:
20:07:09 <stillnotcool> Hannie pulls the most recent copy of the chapter from bzr when it's time to work
20:07:27 <stillnotcool> He shares that on Google Docs, where we both collaborate (I do the writing, he edits as I go).
20:07:47 <stillnotcool> WHen I sign off on it, he gives it a final edit, asks any remaining questions, then tightens the markeup and pushes the revision
20:08:03 <stillnotcool> This is a special case, I suppose, because we don't have screenshots
20:08:33 <stillnotcool> He and I both agreed to use GDocs because we're comfortable with it, and it mae collaborating easier.
20:08:44 <godbyk> Cool.
20:08:46 <stillnotcool> Writer/editor pairs could choose another tool if one works better.
20:08:50 <tomswartz07> Thats a very great idea
20:09:08 <stillnotcool> But this has worked well for us, and allowed me to do what I enjoy most: writing.
20:09:08 <godbyk> Another route that some authors/editors have taken is to just drop .ods files into an Ubuntu One shared folder.
20:09:20 <stillnotcool> godbyk: I like that, too.
20:09:21 <c7p> sounds good
20:09:43 <ChrisWoollard> Maybe it is just a case of making sure people know that they can write anyway that suits them
20:09:44 <tomswartz07> or Dropbox, if you prefer cross platform for us Arch users :)
20:10:06 <godbyk> What I have envisioned is that we'd have a website that works similar to a wiki. Though instead of using wiki markup, we'd have a WYSIWYG editor.
20:10:15 <godbyk> Authors would write content.
20:10:28 <stillnotcool> We might advertise author jobs as writing jobs, and editor jobs as technical positions -- the work not only of editing prose, but marking up copy and taking screenshots (doing more technical work)
20:10:29 <godbyk> Once authors have written content, the editors are notified and can come along and tweak things.
20:10:41 <godbyk> Once the editors have finished with it, the translators are notified and can translate that section.
20:10:56 <godbyk> All of that would happen on the website. There'd be no LaTeX or bzr visible.
20:11:05 <stillnotcool> godbyk: Right.
20:11:26 <godbyk> In addition, when something that's been translated is edited/modified, the translated can see what's actually changed.
20:11:48 <godbyk> So if, say, a comma were added, the translated could see that only a comma has been added and that they don't need to retranslate the entire paragraph.
20:12:00 <godbyk> I think that would go a long way toward helping our translators.
20:12:11 <godbyk> They could start work a lot earlier in the process and keep up more easily.
20:12:12 <stillnotcool> godbyk: Well put
20:12:44 <godbyk> Once everything has been written an edited, we'd generate the LaTeX code, make any tweaks there that we wanted to make and have our PDFs ready to go.
20:12:44 <herat> http://www.scribtex.com/ Has anyone tried it? It has all the features we need.
20:12:52 <godbyk> At the same time, we'd generate ePUB and other formats.
20:13:24 <stillnotcool> herat: Yes! But costly.
20:13:40 <herat> stillnotcool: Oh. Did not see that.
20:13:44 <godbyk> herat: I haven't tried it yet. Though we'd need to be able to use our own document class ("template").
20:13:59 <godbyk> And it looks like it's $10/month.
20:14:50 <godbyk> Anyway, that's some of what I have envisioned for our website and process in the future. To make that happen, we'd need to design the site in more detail and find some web developers to create it for us.
20:15:03 <c7p> yap
20:15:23 <c7p> we also need to talk about the project to the outside world
20:15:26 <stillnotcool> herat: I won't presume to argue for what's best with regard to our implementation/use of LaTeX.  godbyk is the expert there, and knowsmore about what we need/want than I do.  I'll just say that from a writer's perspective the current instructions are a little intimidating, and I think it behooves us in the near future to reconsider our writer/editor workflow to better accommodate newer contributors.
20:15:34 <godbyk> This website would also allow for drive-by editing. Anyone can come along and fix bugs.
20:15:38 <stillnotcool> godbyk: I like it.
20:15:52 <godbyk> If they're anonymous edits, they'd need to be approved by a registered editor first.
20:16:09 <tomswartz07> I think what we need is a person to basically hit up all of the Linux news outlets and cheerlead our project. if we could get more users, we could get much more varied skills and more breathing room to work
20:16:16 <ChrisWoollard> maybe worth testing at least
20:16:37 <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: What's worth testing?
20:16:45 <ChrisWoollard> scribtex
20:16:50 <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Ah, gotcha.
20:17:01 <godbyk> I'll poke around it a bit and see how it looks.
20:17:23 <ChrisWoollard> click trial. it takes you to a demo site
20:17:27 <stillnotcool> I like how the basic/free version is limited to "one bollaborator."  I'm unsure what that actually looks like!
20:17:39 <stillnotcool> *collaborator
20:18:08 <godbyk> Another topic that was raised during the UDS session:
20:18:14 <godbyk> #topic Collaboration with the docs team
20:18:36 <godbyk> The question of why we're not collaborating with the docs team is raised periodically.
20:19:00 <godbyk> Aside from some initial strife between Ben and the docs team when the project first started,
20:19:17 <godbyk> I think the real reason for lack of collaboration is that no one from either team has really taken up the issue.
20:19:31 <stillnotcool> godbyk: Right, a schism I never really understood, to be honest.
20:19:38 <ChrisWoollard> Are they still using another system. I forgot which one
20:19:42 <c7p> godbyk: i agree
20:19:54 <godbyk> My question is: In what ways would  teams benefit from collaboration? How can we collaborate?
20:20:06 <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: I think they're using docbook/mallard markup.
20:20:30 <ChrisWoollard> Ahhh. Mallard. That's what I was thinking of
20:20:37 <stillnotcool> I think the docs team likely has a better sense of what's most useful to the uninitiated.
20:21:15 <godbyk> Questions: How could the docs team help the manual project?   How could we help the docs team?
20:21:16 <stillnotcool> The docs team must document _everything_ in Ubuntu, but it's likely they have some kind of data regarding which documentation is accessed most frequently by new users.
20:21:46 <stillnotcool> Understanding these patterns might help us target our manual and ensure that our chapters cover relevant material
20:22:37 <c7p> i don't know how we can help each other, maybe we can have a poll of content were anyone of both project can have direct access to the work of the other
20:22:43 <stillnotcool> And because we are trying to remain sensitive to the needs of new/inexperienced users, we might offer them this perspective on relevant sections of the official documentation, which could benefit from what we've already done
20:23:43 <godbyk> I'll ask a stupid question while I'm at it (admitting my own ignorance): What does the docs team do?
20:23:56 <godbyk> From what I gather, they maintain the official Ubuntu help files.
20:24:11 <stillnotcool> my understanding is that the team maintains the documentation at help.ubuntu.com
20:24:11 <c7p> i think that's what they do
20:24:28 <godbyk> Okay.
20:24:51 <ChrisWoollard> It would be nice to hear from them occasionally
20:24:56 <TonyP> So they are the help team
20:24:57 <stillnotcool> My sense is that we're all working with the same mission, though our foci are different
20:25:15 <stillnotcool> we are writing material specifically targetted at new users
20:25:37 <kereltis> True but I see the two projects as aiming at different people, they cover everything in great detail which can turn into geek speech, good stuff but can be intimidating if your new to computers. We on the other hand target the people that are brand new and just want the basics to get them started in basic language they can easily follow.
20:25:39 <stillnotcool> what we do seems to me a subset of the overal project of documenting Ubuntu
20:25:51 <stillnotcool> kereltis: Yes.
20:26:01 <stillnotcool> So, try this:
20:26:23 <stillnotcool> visit the home page for 12.04 documentation
20:26:24 <stillnotcool> https://help.ubuntu.com/12.04/index.html
20:26:32 <TonyP> or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
20:26:48 <stillnotcool> On that page, you'll see a few different types of documentaiton
20:26:51 <stillnotcool> A desktop guide
20:26:54 <stillnotcool> A server guide
20:26:57 <stillnotcool> and an installation guide
20:27:13 <stillnotcool> our manual could be the first link: 1. "Getting Started Guide"
20:27:46 <godbyk> One difference between their desktop guide <https://help.ubuntu.com/12.04/ubuntu-help/index.html> and our manual is that we can't easily redirect the user to read, say, the Empathy help pages for more information. We try to include the most common and useful information directly in our manual.
20:28:06 <stillnotcool> godbyk: Right, and we rightly shouldn't.
20:28:12 <godbyk> In other words, our manual needs to be fairly self-contained instead of merely pointing to other documentation.
20:28:20 <c7p> yap
20:28:37 <stillnotcool> Our manual assists new folks with the task of navigating a stock installation.
20:28:48 <godbyk> I'm just poking around their desktop guide, so this may not be representative.
20:29:01 <godbyk> It appears that their style is very oriented on the how-to.
20:29:14 <godbyk> Example: �To let other users use your computer, you can either log out, or leave yourself logged in and just switch users. If you switch users, all of your applications will continue running, and everything will be where you left it when you log back in.�
20:29:17 <stillnotcool> When they're ready to graduate from "Getting Started," they head to the "Desktop Guide," which could actually be renamed to something like "Complete Documentation" or "Advance Documentation"
20:29:35 <godbyk> Most of their paragraphs begin with, �To do x, ...�
20:29:51 <godbyk> Whereas we should be providing a bit more background/discussion instead of just a sequence of steps to follow.
20:30:29 <stillnotcool> godbyk: +1
20:30:32 <c7p> +1
20:31:03 <godbyk> Having said that, I do think it'd be useful if we explored the topics that they're covering in the desktop and installation guides to see if there's anything that we're missing.
20:31:14 <godbyk> (Or conversely, anything that they're missing that we think they should add.)
20:31:25 <stillnotcool> godbyk: Agreed.
20:31:33 <kereltis> Agreed
20:31:38 <c7p> me too
20:31:40 <godbyk> Would anyone here be interested in taking up that task?
20:31:57 <godbyk> That is, doing a comparison between their desktop and installation guides and our manual?
20:32:30 <stillnotcool> godbyk: Would it be something each author could do for his or her individual chapter?  Perhaps editors could peruse the documentation for their subjects and suggest to authors changes or additions.
20:32:55 <godbyk> stillnotcool: Possibly, though the info might be scattered around quite a bit.
20:33:04 <godbyk> Tell you what, I'll take on that task.
20:33:22 <godbyk> I'll have a look at their guides and see what they cover and what we cover, figure out the overlap and things that each group has missed.
20:33:49 <c7p> guys i got to go
20:33:51 <stillnotcool> godbyk: That's generous.  Thanks for doing it.
20:34:01 <godbyk> Okay, see you later, c7p.
20:34:13 <kereltis> cya c7p
20:34:15 <c7p> i think this was one of the best meetings !
20:34:18 <c7p> see you all
20:34:30 <stillnotcool> bye c7p
20:34:32 <c7p> thanks for being here
20:34:37 <kereltis> same, we got a lot discussed
20:35:10 <godbyk> Okay, I think we have just a couple more topics and then we'll be finished.
20:35:19 <godbyk> #topic Screenshot editors
20:35:31 <godbyk> We've discussed this previously a bit.
20:36:06 <godbyk> I think that it'd work best if the authors took the initial screenshots (so they can show us what they want), and then we should have one or two screenshot editors who come along afterward and take all the "official" screenshots.
20:36:31 <godbyk> I think having a couple people taking all the screenshots will help ensure consistency.
20:36:39 <kereltis> agreed, it would cut down on problems
20:36:46 <godbyk> What do you guys think?
20:37:31 <TonyP> Good idea
20:37:35 <stillnotcool> godbyk: Sounds easy enough.  Writers could just use the built-in screenshot software to give editors the gist.
20:37:53 <godbyk> Would anyone here like to volunteer to be a screenshot editor?
20:38:09 <godbyk> If not, I'll send an email to the list and ask for volunteers.
20:38:44 <godbyk> Okay, I'll email the list.
20:38:51 <kereltis> We'll need someone who knows LateX I presume
20:39:13 <godbyk> kereltis: Nope. Just someone who's detail-oriented and can take screenshot with the proper resolution and whatnot.
20:40:10 <godbyk> #topic Call for editors
20:40:26 <godbyk> Hannie sent an email to the list earlier this week to get volunteers to be editors.
20:40:31 <godbyk> I don't think she got much of a response.
20:40:53 <TonyP> Just me and someone else
20:40:55 <kereltis> We could ask omgubuntu and iHeartubuntu to give us a mention and ask for editors
20:40:56 <godbyk> She's going to email the editors we have and some of the editors we've had in the past to see if they're still interested in helping.
20:41:04 <godbyk> Having said that, I think that we'll still need more editors.
20:41:44 <godbyk> I'll write up a call for editors that we can send out to website.
20:41:52 <godbyk> What website would you suggest I send it to?
20:42:03 <kereltis> omgubuntu
20:42:25 <tomswartz07> kereltis: +1
20:42:39 <stillnotcool> think that's our best bet
20:42:44 <godbyk> Okay.
20:42:57 <godbyk> I'll have someone post it to Planet Ubuntu as well.
20:43:05 <TonyP> Something in the Ubuntu weekly news?
20:43:14 <stillnotcool> we might make the call more specific ... assess our needs as say "we need editors with knowledge of x, y, and z"
20:43:24 <stillnotcool> TonyP: +1
20:43:42 <godbyk> TonyP: Good idea. I'll ask pleia2 about that.
20:43:46 <kereltis> yep, maybe http://benjaminkerensa.com/ as well
20:44:10 <godbyk> 'kay.
20:44:38 <godbyk> #topic Any other business
20:44:45 <godbyk> I think we've touched on everything that was on the agenda.
20:45:08 <stillnotcool> Nice work godbyk. Thanks for chairing and leading.
20:45:09 <godbyk> Just a reminder that the upcoming deadline of 31 May is when authors need to have finished their writing and draft screenshots.
20:45:27 <godbyk> Does anyone have any other business they'd like to discuss?
20:45:29 <godbyk> Or any questions?
20:46:20 <stillnotcool> All set :)
20:46:40 <godbyk> All right. Since there is no other business, we're adjourned.
20:46:44 <godbyk> Thanks for coming, everyone!
20:46:46 <godbyk> #endmeeting