14:34 <willcooke> #startmeeting Desktop Team Weekly Meeting - 2017-11-07
14:34 <meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov  7 14:34:35 2017 UTC.  The chair is willcooke. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
14:34 <meetingology> 
14:34 <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
14:34 <willcooke> Roll call: andyrock, dgadomski, didrocks, duflu (out), jbicha, jamesh (out), jibel/heber, kenvandine, laney, oSoMoN, seb128, tkamppeter, trevinho (hols), robert_ancell (out)
14:34 <oSoMoN> 😺/
14:34 <didrocks> hey!
14:35 <seb128> hey
14:35 <willcooke> Sorry for the late start everyone
14:35 <heber> o/
14:35 <andyrock> o/
14:35 <willcooke> Looks like we've got enough folk to get started....
14:35 <willcooke> #topic andyrock
14:35 <andyrock> hey
14:35 <andyrock> 1. py-macaroon-bakery
14:35 <andyrock> 1.1 MR to relaxing py-requests and py-protobuf dependencies in order to facilite the ITP's py-macaroon-bakery
14:35 <andyrock> 1.2 testing the MR to make sure relaxing  the deps was ok
14:35 <andyrock> 1.3 python-macaroon-bakery is in bionic (0.0.3 in universe and 0.0.5 in universe-proposed) thanks to cjwatson
14:35 <andyrock> 2. software-properties
14:35 <andyrock> 2.1 Refactoring code around in order to make it work with new API, code is almost ready I just need to deal with some corner cases
14:35 <andyrock> 3. my xps 15 decided to died, spent some time to open it, debug the issue and order the different replacement parts to fix it
14:36 <andyrock> *to relax
14:36 <willcooke> andyrock, OEM said you can keep that machine for a little while if you need it
14:36 <andyrock> cool
14:37 <willcooke> andyrock, EOF?
14:37 <andyrock> yup
14:37 <willcooke> thanks andyrock
14:37 <willcooke> #topic dgadomski
14:37 <dgadomski> hey
14:37 <kenvandine> o/
14:37 <dgadomski> * discussed TLS1.2 support in python 2.7.6 on Trusty (bug #1443704) with the security team, checking if it's supported by openssl underneath without Python knowing about it
14:37 <dgadomski> * debugging a potential cups regression in 17.10 - will report a bug after I know what's going on there
14:37 <dgadomski> * back to working on bug #1700827 (after security issues has been resolved upstream)
14:37 <ubot5> bug 1443704 in python2.7 (Ubuntu) "Support for TLS 1.2 not present (added in 2.7.9)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1443704
14:37 <ubot5> bug 1700827 in pcp (Ubuntu) "[MIR] pcp package" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1700827
14:37 <dgadomski> eof
14:37 <willcooke> thanks dgadomski
14:37 <willcooke> #topic didrocks
14:38 <didrocks> plop
14:38 <didrocks> * File Google Code In tasks on the forum. Need now to enter them in the system (Ken, you did volunteered as well, I think I'll get you in).
14:38 <didrocks> * Started GNOME Shell vs extension mode upstream discussion for security on their mailing list:
14:38 <didrocks> - Few feedbacks for now, tried pushing on ML, bugzilla and IRC multiple times.
14:38 <didrocks> - Implemented a POC patch set enabling that. Running this patch set happily for some days and all works (updates prevention, can't remove extension, running local one instead of remote one).
14:38 <didrocks> - Once this is sorted out, will need to work on Tweaks and chrome shell extension to reflect correct status.
14:38 <didrocks> - For reference: discussion at https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-shell-list/2017-October/msg00034.html and bug athttps://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=789852.
14:38 <ubot5> Gnome bug 789852 in general "Ensure extensions parts of a mode are from system, report back correct status for g-s-extension-prefs" [Normal,New]
14:38 <didrocks> * Fix a dash to dock vs ubuntu dock conflict (do not look at gsettings key but rather looking at internal running state) + SRU/backport some upstream fixes to artful.
14:38 <didrocks> * Linux Unplugged interview
14:38 <didrocks> * Fix a GNOME Shell crasher when installed with no recommends
14:38 <didrocks> * Iterate with GNOME Shell designers on "sounds above 100% feedback"
14:38 <didrocks> * Rebase fo bionic ubuntu-dock on latest dash to dock and uploadedit.
14:38 <didrocks> * More community interaction on the hub and french forum.
14:38 <didrocks> …
14:38 <willcooke> thanks didrocks
14:39 <willcooke> #topic duflu
14:39 <willcooke> Standby for large paste....
14:39 <willcooke> * PulseAudio 11.1 for bionic:
14:39 <willcooke> - Completed merge with Debian, packaging fixes and testing.
14:39 <willcooke> - Now just awaiting sponsorship; see sponsorship list below.
14:39 <willcooke> - History: https://git.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-audio-dev/pulseaudio/log/?h=ubuntu
14:39 <willcooke> * Mutter/Xwayland crash handling (https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1724185)
14:39 <willcooke> - Fix released upstream this week (v3.26.2)
14:39 <ubot5> Launchpad bug 1724185 in mutter (Ubuntu) "Xwayland leaves no core dump or .crash file when crashing" [High,Fix released]
14:39 <willcooke> - Fix released in Bionic already!
14:39 <willcooke> * Mutter: blurry shell fonts: (https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1714459)
14:39 <ubot5> Launchpad bug 1714459 in mutter (Ubuntu) "Shell font is blurry under Wayland (panels, menus and login screen too)" [Low,In progress]
14:39 <willcooke> - Fix landed upstream for release in mutter v3.27.2 only.
14:39 <willcooke> - HELP: Need to decide how we will get this into 18.04 if not Gnome 3.28.
14:39 <willcooke> * Totem stuttering fixes (https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1698270)
14:39 <ubot5> Launchpad bug 1698270 in totem-pl-parser (Ubuntu) "Totem pauses and stutters during video playback even when CPU usage is low" [High,In progress]
14:39 <willcooke> - GTK timing flaws: patches awaiting review/sponsorship below.
14:39 <willcooke> - Totem disk fsync: patch awaiting review/sponsorship below.
14:39 <willcooke> * Totem high CPU usage (https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1698282)
14:39 <ubot5> Launchpad bug 1698282 in clutter-gst-3.0 (Ubuntu) "Totem uses dramatically higher CPU than any other video player" [Medium,Confirmed]
14:39 <willcooke> - On hold till upstream or myself find time to work on completing DMA-buf support in clutter-gst.
14:39 <willcooke> * Unresponsive touchpads (https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1696929)
14:39 <ubot5> Launchpad bug 1696929 in libinput (Ubuntu) "X1 Carbon gen4 and gen5 touchpads are unresponsive and laggy" [High,Confirmed]
14:39 <willcooke> - Upstream fix approved by all testers and now landed.
14:39 <willcooke> - Due for release in libinput 1.9.2 (I guess)
14:39 <willcooke> * Incorrect %CPU in gnome-system-monitor (https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1723370)
14:39 <ubot5> Launchpad bug 1723370 in gnome-system-monitor (Ubuntu) "Processes % CPU column is inaccurate (only ever an integer multiple of the number of CPUs)" [Medium,In progress]
14:39 <willcooke> - Upstream fix has now landed.
14:39 <willcooke> - ETA for inclusion in Ubuntu not yet known.
14:39 <willcooke> * Leaky/bloated Gnome Shell (https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1672297)
14:39 <ubot5> Launchpad bug 1672297 in gnome-shell (Ubuntu) "gnome-shell uses lots of memory, and grows over time" [High,In progress]
14:39 <willcooke> - I got sucked into this by an unexpectedly helpful and eager user so have been working with him. Looks like there are at least two repeating causes of memory bloat/leak.
14:39 <willcooke> - Work in progress.
14:39 <willcooke> * HELP: Patches awaiting Ubuntu sponsorship:
14:40 <willcooke> - https://code.launchpad.net/~vanvugt/gtk/fix-1698270/+merge/331846
14:40 <willcooke> - https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1698270/comments/18
14:40 <willcooke> - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pulseaudio/+bug/1716700/comments/2
14:40 <ubot5> Launchpad bug 1716700 in pulseaudio (Ubuntu) "Upgrade to PulseAudio 11.1" [Wishlist,In progress]
14:40 <willcooke> - https://code.launchpad.net/~vanvugt/totem/fix-1502476/+merge/333195
14:40 <willcooke> * Patches awaiting upstream review:
14:40 <willcooke> - https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=787001
14:40 <ubot5> Gnome bug 787001 in GtkClutterEmbed "clutter-gtk apps like totem and gnome-maps are spending 50% of their CPU time redrawing GTK widgets" [Normal,New]
14:40 <willcooke> - https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=787665
14:40 <ubot5> Gnome bug 787665 in .General "gdk_frame_clock_get_frame_time is irregular and causing stuttering" [Normal,New]
14:40 <willcooke> * Upstream patches now making progress with upstream help:
14:40 <willcooke> - https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=773453
14:40 <ubot5> Gnome bug 773453 in gstreamer-vaapi "vaapi: support GLTextureUpload for EGL/Wayland" [Normal,New]
14:40 <willcooke> * Daily bug management across gnome-shell, mutter, gdm3, ubuntu-themes, bluez, pulseaudio, dkms, mir, wayland, totem, mpv.
14:40 <willcooke> Desktoppers: Please could someone take a look at the sponsorship requests above ^
14:41 <willcooke> #topic jbicha
14:41 <jbicha> (totem at least is blocked on the headerbar decision)
14:41 <jbicha> • gdm3 security update for zesty (LP: #1729354)
14:41 <ubot5> Launchpad bug 1729354 in gdm3 (Ubuntu) "17.04: GDM lock screen can be circumvented when autologin is set" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1729354
14:41 <jbicha> • Uploaded mutter SRU to artful queue (LP:#1730097)
14:41 <jbicha> • Uploaded nototools and fonts-noto-color-emoji to NEW queues.
14:41 <jbicha> • Uploaded libcloudproviders to NEW queue. It will enable Nextcloud support in GTK/Nautilus file browser (so it will need a MIR).
14:41 <jbicha> • Debian Testing finally has GNOME 3.26
14:41 <jbicha> • Continuing discussion about headerbar patches on community.ubuntu.com
14:41 <jbicha> Xubuntu is considering switching some of their default apps (like evince and file-roller) to the MATE versions
14:42 <jbicha> eof
14:42 <seb128> jbicha, what about totem is blocked on headerbar?
14:42 <jbicha> duflu's fix is to drop the headerbar patches! :)
14:42 <seb128> oh ok
14:42 <seb128> (I'm going to look at duflu's sponsoring request on thursday if nobody does it before (I'm off tomorrow))
14:42 <willcooke> thanks seb128
14:43 <willcooke> and thanks jbicha
14:43 <seb128> np
14:43 <jbicha> https://code.launchpad.net/~vanvugt/totem/fix-1502476/+merge/333195
14:43 <willcooke> Skipping jamesh, no update received
14:43 <willcooke> #topic jibel / heber
14:43 <heber> Hey! QA updates:
14:43 <heber> * Deploying upgrade tests for bionic
14:43 <heber> * Maintenance of the testing infrastructure
14:43 <heber> * Going through ubiquity and upgrade failing jobs
14:43 <heber> * Move jobs that are waiting for nodes on lcy01
14:43 <heber> * Getting/parsing results for gnome-shell tests
14:43 <heber> EOF
14:44 <willcooke> thanks heber, hope you had good hols.  Don't think I've said hi since you've been back
14:44 <willcooke> #topic kenvandine
14:44 <kenvandine> * Backported some more fixes from artful to the gnome-3-26 backports PPA including glib with the per desktop overrides.
14:44 <kenvandine> * Updated gnome-3-26-1604 snap to include fixes
14:44 <kenvandine> * Fixed snapcraft-desktop-helpers to include copying of the schema overrides
14:44 <kenvandine> * Rebuilt and tested all the GNOME snaps to include the gsettings override fixes as well as updated packages
14:44 <kenvandine> * Tested the new gnome-online-accounts-service interface from jamesh with gnome-calendar and gnome-contacts
14:44 <kenvandine> * Created contacts-service and calendar-service needed interfaces for evolution access from gnome-calendar and gnome-contacts.  No PR submitted yet, needs some tweaking and tests but they do work with gnome-contacts and gnome-calendar with strict confinement.
14:44 <kenvandine> I'm out friday, US holiday
14:44 <kenvandine> that' sit
14:44 <willcooke> thanks kenvandine
14:45 <willcooke> #topic Laney
14:45 <seb128> oh, jamesh did a gnome-online-accounts interface, nice
14:45 <Laney> • 2 day meeting in London to review Trello etc
14:45 <Laney> • helped bring up new cloud region for autopkgtest (lcy01 was redeployed)
14:45 <Laney> ∘ it's got / hitting a bug where instances are failing to reboot (something like bug #1713751), spent a fair bit of time looking into that with IS (ongoing)
14:45 <ubot5> bug 1713751 in linux-hwe (Ubuntu) "soft lockup / stall on CPU when shutting down with hwe 4.10 kernel " [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1713751
14:45 <Laney> • got review on some gnome-software PRs, fixed / responded to those
14:45 <Laney> • started working again on seeding of snaps
14:45 <Laney> 🎆
14:46 <seb128> jamesh, shame you forgot to write your summary, you usually have interesting work :)
14:46 <kenvandine> seb128, and it works great :)
14:46 <seb128> nice
14:46 <willcooke> thanks Laney
14:47 <willcooke> #topic oSoMoN
14:47 <oSoMoN> hey ho!
14:47 <oSoMoN> = chromium =
14:47 <oSoMoN> • chromium 62.0.3202.75 security update published to all supported series, 62.0.3202.89 currently building in stage PPA
14:47 <oSoMoN> • updated chromium beta to 63.0.3239.30 in PPA and snap in beta channel
14:47 <oSoMoN> • updating chromium dev to 64.0.3253.3
14:47 <oSoMoN> • my upstream CL that fixes source tarball generation got merged and deployed: https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/tools/build/+/3eab95a2d59d2ed3d983079c2fb1a0e449b858f3
14:47 <oSoMoN> • bug triaging, closing many old bugs that are not relevant any longer, confirming a few ones
14:47 <oSoMoN> = libreoffice =
14:47 <oSoMoN> • snap: fixed a couple of issues found by candidate channel testers (bug #1729025, bug #1728713) and promoted 5.4.2 to stable channel
14:47 <ubot5> bug 1729025 in libreoffice (Ubuntu) "[snap] Cannot install 5.4.2 snap with core from beta channel: invalid exec command" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1729025
14:47 <ubot5> bug 1728713 in libreoffice (Ubuntu) "[snap] theming regressed in 5.4.2 on Ubuntu 17.10" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1728713
14:47 <oSoMoN> • bionic: prepared 5.4.2 upload, failed to build on amd64 due to new unit test failures, backported a couple of commits from the upstream debian package and prepared an updated package which is now building
14:47 <oSoMoN> = other =
14:47 <oSoMoN> • prepared PPU application for chromium-browser: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OlivierTilloy/PPUApplication, please endorse me if you can!
14:47 <oSoMoN> EOF ❄️
14:47 <willcooke> nice, thanks oSoMoN
14:47 <willcooke> #topic seb128
14:48 <seb128> • 1 day off for national holiday
14:48 <seb128> • 2 days in London for planning
14:48 <seb128> • bugs triaging from incoming artful reports
14:48 <seb128> • some sponsoring
14:48 <seb128> • replied to some delayed email and to mailing list discussions
14:48 <seb128> </week>
14:48 <willcooke> thanks seb128
14:48 <willcooke> #topic tk
14:48 <willcooke> err
14:48 <Laney> tk taks
14:49 <willcooke> guess Till isn't online
14:49 <willcooke> tab complete fail
14:49 <willcooke> We can come back
14:49 <willcooke> #topic robert_ancell
14:49 <willcooke> - Got basic snap support working in AppCenter (ElementaryOS) and forwarded patch to them.
14:49 <willcooke> - Implemented new / updated snapd APIs into snapd-glib
14:49 <willcooke> #topic AOB
14:49 <willcooke> jbicha, you wanted to talk about....
14:49 * willcooke thinks
14:49 <jbicha> LP: #1666676
14:49 <ubot5> Launchpad bug 1666676 in ubuntu-meta (Ubuntu) "Install tracker by default" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1666676
14:50 <willcooke> that's the one
14:50 <didrocks> ah, back on that one :)
14:50 <jbicha> I invited csoriano (Nautilus maintainer) and garnacho (tracker maintainer) in case there were more detailed questions
14:50 <garnacho> hi everyone
14:51 <willcooke> hi garnacho, thanks for joining
14:52 <seb128> sorry but I didn't see that discussion would be raised today
14:52 <seb128> I didn't re-read enough about the topic nor prepared
14:52 <seb128> so I don't have questions or specifics to discuss
14:52 <willcooke> can we punt to tomorrow on IRC?
14:52 <jbicha> sorry, I didn't think to ping seb128 specifically ahead of time
14:52 <csoriano> hello all
14:53 <seb128> jbicha, well, it's not only me
14:53 <jbicha> maybe I should have emailed the list instead
14:53 <jbicha> in advance
14:53 <seb128> jbicha, seems like you invited upstream, would have been nice to tell us to prepare questions if we had some :)
14:53 <didrocks> I guess latest stand we got on perf and battery was summarized in https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nautilus/+bug/1666676/comments/6
14:53 <ubot5> Launchpad bug 1666676 in ubuntu-meta (Ubuntu) "Install tracker by default" [Undecided,Confirmed]
14:53 <willcooke> jbicha, could we start a thread on the hub?  Sounds like a good place to do it
14:53 <seb128> hey csoriano!
14:53 <didrocks> (I didn't read more, didn't know we would have that AOB and didn't prepare for that question)
14:54 <seb128> well, those discussions went round but "on the spot" comments
14:54 <jbicha> community.ubutnu.com is nice because it doesn't require people to all be on IRC at the same time to give input
14:54 <seb128> - the LTS cycle is a tricky time to do disruptive changes and that's one of those
14:54 <jbicha> it was a stealth request on https://trello.com/c/4gjeaE66/93-re-evaluate-tracker-by-default
14:54 <seb128> - we would need to plan for manpower to do the change and ensure quality and we didn't account for that
14:54 <jbicha> and I didn't think that everyone wouldn't have seen the little note there
14:56 <willcooke> I think the hub is probably a good place for this then, people can take time over their responses
14:56 <jbicha> willcooke: I can start the discussion on community.ubuntu.com, how about we see where we are with that at next week's Desktop meeting?
14:56 <willcooke> think things  through
14:56 <seb128> jbicha, I think that the summary is that upstream believes that it's good, there is no issue and that we should ship it and that we tend to want data to make up our mind and don't have enough to decide
14:57 <willcooke> jbicha, that sounds good. Thanks.  Maybe we can resolve everything on the hub with a bit of luck
14:57 <jbicha> seb128: yes, that's where we were last cycle
14:58 <seb128> csoriano, garnacho, sorry I don't think that we have questions for you, the positions are been stated several time of the years on that launchpad bugs and other places and I don't think anyone really changed their position
14:58 <csoriano> seb128: oh ok, then I guess that's all :)
14:58 <csoriano> see you!
14:58 <seb128> csoriano, I do know you would be in favor if seeing it included though :)
14:58 <seb128> so let's see how the hub discussion goes
14:58 <seb128> csoriano, thanks for coming!
14:58 <csoriano> sounds good
14:59 <csoriano> np!
14:59 <garnacho> alright, please point us to it
14:59 <seb128> k
14:59 <garnacho> see you!
15:00 <willcooke> oki, jbicha please get the thread started then and we can get it sorted
15:00 <willcooke> Anyone got anything else?
15:00 <jbicha> sure
15:00 <seb128> well, while we are on the topic, do people here install tracker and use it?
15:00 <jbicha> nothing else from me
15:00 <didrocks> I don't
15:00 <seb128> does anybody has an opinion on how it's working for them
15:01 <seb128> or a +1/0/-1 on principle?
15:01 <didrocks> I still hear bad things due to impact on battery/perf from the 2 persons working on GNOME around me
15:01 <andyrock> I got traker enabled for some reasons
15:01 <jbicha> seb128: every other GNOME distro includes it (including Ubuntu GNOME before 17.10)
15:01 <seb128> just trying to get a feeling of what people thing
15:01 <didrocks> that's the only input, but nothing measurable unfortunately
15:01 <andyrock> and it's always 100%
15:01 <seb128> think
15:01 <seb128> andyrock, 100% what?
15:01 <jbicha> Ubuntu Budgie intentionally stopped installing tracker in 17.10 so I want to ask fossfredom how much feedback they had gotten before about that
15:01 <andyrock> CPU
15:02 <andyrock> :P
15:02 <seb128> k
15:02 <andyrock> I cannot debug right now as the computer where it's enabled is dead
15:02 <seb128> the anecdotic comments we just had from didrocks and andyrock don't give me much confidence :p
15:02 <oSoMoN> not using it, but I can install and observe how it affects my machine
15:02 <didrocks> ah, also on the french forum
15:02 <seb128> hum
15:03 <didrocks> someone complaining that we installed tracker by default :p 100% of CPU usage
15:03 <didrocks> (2 days ago)
15:03 <seb128> should we maybe ask people in the team to install/opt in for it
15:03 <didrocks> ofc, arguedwedidn't :p
15:03 <seb128> and revisit/see feedback next week?
15:03 <seb128> or on the hub :p
15:03 <willcooke> hub!
15:03 <seb128> k
15:03 <jbicha> there are also lots of anecdotal comments that it works fine :/
15:03 <didrocks> I guess asking for a call for participation on the hub is nice
15:03 * Laney has it installed, have done for ages
15:03 <Laney> so my anecdote is that I never notice it
15:03 <Laney> :-)
15:03 <didrocks> and gather data
15:03 <andyrock> I actually was not sure why the tracker was enabled
15:03 <seb128> Laney, do you find it to provide something useful?
15:03 <didrocks> I can link from the french forum as well
15:04 <andyrock> I was going to ask here because I was a bit confused
15:04 <seb128> andyrock, you probably installed the package to build/test nautilus or something?
15:04 <jbicha> seb128: we're also being forced in to enabling tracker…
15:04 <andyrock> it can be
15:04 <seb128> jbicha, that has to been seen :p
15:04 <seb128> I'm not saying it's not going to be incrementally harder not having it
15:04 <jbicha> csoriano says that Nautilus 3.28 hard-depends on tracker for the new Favorites feature and he says we would have to revert several commits to avoid the tracker dependency
15:05 <seb128> but we could do without for the LTS
15:05 <seb128> he already said that for 3.26 and the batch rename
15:05 <seb128> and fts
15:05 <didrocks> for a non LTS, I guess we could give it a try, for a LTS, I'm less positive
15:05 <jbicha> well fts doesn't work without tracker and batch rename is a bit less nice without tracker
15:06 <jbicha> ("full text search")
15:06 <seb128> right, but he also said in 3.26 that it wouid be an hard depends
15:06 <seb128> anyway, let's give it a try
15:06 <seb128> but what Didier said
15:07 <seb128> even if it's good it needs a maintainer and somebody to look at issues after integration
15:07 <seb128> and the team is busy at full capacity already
15:07 <jbicha> tracker is a hard build-depends in 3.26 and the UI is confusing because it offers fts
15:07 <seb128> unsure what we are arguing over
15:07 <seb128> I was just pointed out that we managed to ship 3.26 without enabling tracker
15:08 <jbicha> and of course, we could still ship nautilus 3.26 for 18.04 LTS if it is a hard dependency and we don't want tracker
15:08 <seb128> right
15:09 <seb128> I guess it's enough said on the topic
15:09 <seb128> let's all install/try it and use the hub to discuss
15:09 <jbicha> it's tricky because we'll get criticism no matter what we do
15:09 <willcooke> yeah, to the hub!
15:09 <willcooke> gonna end the meeting here, carry on if needed
15:09 <willcooke> #endmeeting