== Meeting information == * #ubuntu-desktop: GNOME as the desktop, 18 Apr at 15:30 — 16:45 UTC * Full logs at [[http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-desktop/2017/ubuntu-desktop.2017-04-18-15.30.log.html]] == Meeting summary == ''LINK:'' https://etherpad.gnome.org/p/ubuntu-desktop-meeting ''LINK:'' maybe ''LINK:'' http://pad.ubuntu.com/n08SOl5xiA === Etherpad here: http://pad.ubuntu.com/n08SOl5xiA === The discussion about "Etherpad here: http://pad.ubuntu.com/n08SOl5xiA" started at 15:39. === Dropping Unity specific patches === The discussion about "Dropping Unity specific patches" started at 15:44. === timescales === The discussion about "timescales" started at 15:56. === Out Of Box === The discussion about "Out Of Box" started at 16:21. === Any Other Business === The discussion about "Any Other Business" started at 16:31. * ''LINK:'' https://blogs.gnome.org/desrt/2016/06/13/gtk-4-0-is-not-gtk-4/ == Vote results == == Done items == * (none) == People present (lines said) == * seb128 (212) * Laney (87) * mhall119 (58) * willcooke (47) * jbicha (42) * ryanleesipes (31) * Trevinho (23) * gQuigs (19) * ogra_ (14) * jackpot51 (14) * flexiondotorg (14) * alex285 (8) * meetingology (5) * isantop (4) * andyrock (3) * dednick (3) * Source0f1 (3) * aquarius_ (3) * ahayzen (2) * k1l (2) * dmj_s76 (1) * attente (1) * k_alam (1) * kenvandine (1) * flocculant (1) * cimi (1) * tkamppeter (1) == Full Log == 15:30 #startmeeting GNOME as the desktop 15:30 Meeting started Tue Apr 18 15:30:42 2017 UTC. The chair is willcooke. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. 15:30 15:30 Available commands: action commands idea info link nick 15:31 Who is interesting in getting involved in the meeting? 15:31 hey 15:31 o/ 15:31 o/ 15:31 Hola 15:31 * kenvandine waves 15:31 willcooke: There are a bunch of System76 people who are interested 15:31 yeah, let's maybe that with a round of "raise your hand" for those who have things they want to say/discuss 15:31 ? 15:31 * Laney is here 15:31 that feels like the sort of meeting that is going to get out of hands :p 15:31 o/ 15:31 Hehe 15:32 _o/ 15:32 SYSTEM76 sound off! 15:32 o/ 15:32 o/ 15:32 shrug 15:32 that's a lot of people :p 15:32 everybody get a one line summary of what topic you want to discuss? 15:32 o/ 15:32 I'll be brief :) 15:32 let's give us 3 min to write that 15:32 then we go round pasting those 15:32 then we can find out common points 15:32 or organize 15:33 wdyt? 15:33 +1 15:33 is the meeting done, or starting? 15:33 alex285, starting 15:33 awesome thanks! 15:34 o/ 15:35 seb128: ready for us to paste them? 15:35 if you want 15:35 With both my Community Council and Community Manager hats on, I just wanted to let everybody know that they can contact me directly at mhall119@ubuntu.com if they have any questions or concerns (non-technical ones, for technical talk to the desktop team) during the transition from Unity. 15:35 Do we have an Etherpad or something? 15:35 thanks 15:35 no, we have a bot that record 15:36 That would be better for collecting questions/comments 15:36 but feel free to start one 15:36 ryanleesipes: the meetingology bot will record stuff and generate meeting minutes 15:36 Etherpad done: http://pad.ubuntu.com/n08SOl5xiA 15:36 cimi hi guys 15:36 hi 15:36 jbicha, andyrock, isantop, ryanleesipes, ahayzen, feel free to paste your summary when you have it 15:36 https://etherpad.gnome.org/p/ubuntu-desktop-meeting 15:36 Oh nevermind 15:37 lol Trevinho 15:37 w3m is the only way forward anyway :) everything else is bloat (SCNR) 15:37 Use the top one, not mind 15:37 err 15:37 s&/w3m/wmx/ (damn) 15:37 seb128: can you tell meetingology about hte etherpad link? 15:37 * mhall119 has forgotten meetingology syntax already 15:38 I'm personally concerned about the out-of-box experience GNOME delivers by default. 15:38 Albeit I can't get into the Ubuntu etherpad 15:38 mhall119, no, willcooke is the one who started the meeting/control the bot 15:38 also no idea how to do that? 15:38 link ...? 15:38 #link maybe 15:38 willcooke, ^ 15:38 #link http://pad.ubuntu.com/n08SOl5xiA 15:38 or LINK: 15:39 LINK: http://pad.ubuntu.com/n08SOl5xiA 15:39 jbicha, andyrock, isantop, ryanleesipes, ahayzen, no topics from you then? 15:39 * Trevinho fails 15:39 Either you have not been granted access to this resource or your entitlement has timed out. Please try again. 15:39 maybe.... 15:39 #topic Etherpad here: http://pad.ubuntu.com/n08SOl5xiA 15:39 well, I'd like to follow up on isantop's topic 15:39 isantop, sorry, just saw your line from earlier 15:39 willcooke: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology for reference 15:39 seb128, are we putting in the etherpad or here ... ? 15:39 also I assume it's ok now to drop Unity-specific patches that hold GNOME back? My specific example is Shotwell which is held at a git snapshot for a year because no one has stepped up to rewrite its UOA code. 15:39 ryanleesipes: looks like a timeout, login and log back in to Ubuntu SSO (login.ubuntu.com) 15:39 ahayzen, either work 15:39 just pick one 15:39 so we can get moving 15:39 :-) 15:40 so mine 15:40 want to discuss goals/how we move z+1 to GNOME and re-active the channel/sync up the work between us; don't want to discuss today the technical details/choices of components/etc 15:40 +1 on avoiding technical topics for now 15:40 My topics: 15:40 How should the Ubuntu GNOME team and the Ubuntu Desktop team resolve conflicts? 15:40 Expected timescales to see GNOME become the default shell 15:40 the details should be done in a meeting properly scheduled where we have the people we need, etc 15:40 I still can't get in 15:40 where will technical topics be discussed? later IRC meetings or mailinglist? 15:40 I'll just ask my questions in here, and perhaps someone else can plug them into Etherpad 15:41 ryanleesipes: PM me your LP nick 15:41 we are going to have another meeting 15:41 but mailing list is always fine for questions if anyone has some 15:41 It's just ryanleesipes mhall119 15:41 or for raising topics 15:42 mhall119: jackpot51 on the pad pls 15:42 ryanleesipes: you should have etherpad access now, might need to log out and back in 15:42 I got in 15:42 jackpot51: also added, if anyone else needs access to the etherpad please PM me your launchpad nick 15:43 k, let's see we have enough topics to touch a few of those 15:43 willcooke, how do you want to process? 15:43 Alright, I'm in 15:43 I'll go through the pad one by one and set the topic, starting at the top... 15:43 hum 15:44 My questions: Will AppMenu and Indicator continue to be supported? 15:44 actually, let's start with... 15:44 what is the goal of the "new" gnome desktop: ship a vanilla gnome-shell or keep the workflow/look at the old unity way (with extensions or maybe patches for globalmenu)? 15:44 #topic Dropping Unity specific patches 15:44 jbicha, want to kick that off? 15:45 let's start with this one because it leads to how we set up collaboration I think 15:45 How are we handling Unity-specific patches? 15:45 or organize the work 15:45 do we just keep them if they aren't holding us back? 15:45 yes please 15:45 well no 15:46 my stand would be that we should go through the packages and remove patches that we feel like are not needed anymore 15:46 but we shouldn't do that as individuals 15:46 like I would try to suggest we set up a per-review rule 15:46 and use the channel to request reviews 15:46 is there a definitive list of these packages/patches? 15:46 so nobody takes an unilateral decision 15:47 and we resume team work/channel activity 15:47 jbicha, wdyt? 15:47 it's probably fine to drop patches for uoa/menubars/csd etc, but maybe not some others like typeahead in nautilus 15:47 if we just go "open gate mode" it's going to be cahotic at best 15:47 so, what I hear you saying is case-by-case but let's discuss when we do it to make sure there's concensus 15:47 what do others thing? 15:48 think 15:48 ironically, typeahead is probably the first to go as we've already discussed :| 15:48 yeah, maybe not the best example 15:48 nautilus isn't a good example because we already separately discussed dropping that 15:48 finne 15:48 don't know what would be atm 15:48 maybe something 15:48 are we ok with breakage on Unity to get Gnome working better? 15:48 please don't nitpick on stupid examples 15:48 seb128: would it be easier to start with "no patches" and go through them to add back in ones you want to keep, or start with "all patches" and go through them to see which ones to drop? 15:48 hey 15:48 it's just the first one I had coming 15:49 Agree with mhall119 15:49 on starting with no patches 15:49 I'm sure there will be some things to keep 15:49 ryanleesipes: that was a question, you can't agree with it :-P 15:49 looking at gtk there are some 15:49 I can 15:49 It's my right 15:49 keeping unity working in universe is a good point 15:49 we are not going to keep intrusive UI patches for apps I think 15:50 there are some unity patches though, that might be convenient to keep (if not causing too much hassle) for people who wants to stick to unity7 on 18.04 I think 15:50 but we should probably keep the patches that don't cost much like if we have gtk changes to make appmenu work 15:50 hmm 15:50 don't know about that 15:50 Keeping patches has the advantage that it helps identify what we might desire to upstream. 15:50 we might end up creating a crappy experience 15:50 k 15:50 maybe let's stay our of technical details today? 15:50 Will anyone be maintaining Unity7? 15:50 like there are patches for headerbar to make them to work well when maximized in unity, they shouldn't create problems 15:50 like just agree on big lines 15:50 like need-peer-reviews to drop patches 15:50 ok, so can we get an action item assigned to somebody to start on a list of patches to keep/remove? 15:51 no single person who go and clean/upload by themself 15:51 ryanleesipes: as xenial is there for a while, I think it will need some basic support. 15:51 +1 or -1? 15:51 then everyone else can +/-1 them 15:51 no 15:51 +1 on working together to decide 15:51 do you plan to work on updating packages? 15:51 ryanleesipes: so, mostly high-prio bug fixes... 15:51 just curious 15:51 me? no, you've seen what I do to .deb packages 15:52 nobdoy wants that :) 15:52 k, you just seem to have strong preferences on how we organize ourselves 15:52 so I was wondering :p 15:52 but I'd like to see someone take an action item to start a document or something for tracking that work 15:52 for visibility 15:53 we have versions.html, just file a bug when you update a package and get a review on there? 15:53 +1 15:53 seb128: I think we're in agreement with your general idea for peer review for dropping Unity-ish patches 15:53 although that might not have proper visibility of what needs doing 15:53 I would vote for normal mps (if vcs) or debdiff 15:53 I think it's too early to list out which specifics we want to work on, we need to agree the right processes today and then the specifics can come later 15:53 and get a peer review 15:53 more so if we go to 3.26 ;-) 15:53 using the channel to request for reviews 15:53 willcooke, +1 15:53 +1 willcooke 15:54 which is also why I said let's stay out of technical discussions today 15:54 like on wheter we keep supporting unity in universe 15:54 or specifics about patches 15:54 file bug / merge proposal, get review, upload 15:54 +1 15:54 +1 "using the channel to request for reviews" 15:54 ^ agreement on that? 15:54 next topic? 15:55 Ok 15:55 So we're agreed that we will use LP reviews and the IRC channel to request reviews and discuss it there. 15:56 So I'd like to move on to.... 15:56 #topic timescales 15:56 How does end of April for the seeds to be updated sound? 15:56 I think step 1 is to update the seed to put GNOME on the iso instead of unity 15:56 that sounds a good target to me 15:56 Two things 15:56 seb128: are you talking zesty+1? 15:57 we don't need technical details of leaf packages at first 15:57 willcooke: unless we are ok with the seeds including universe packages, that won't actually be possible that quick 15:57 or maybe just gdm vs lightdm 15:57 1. I made a PPA https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-desktop/+archive/ubuntu/ubuntu-desktop-gnome 15:57 this lets us 1) break shit and not care that much 15:57 2) include universe packages 15:57 Laney, do we build an iso using the ppa? 15:57 or what does it do? 15:57 if we upload the seed there and have a look 15:57 you don't (well, you could) 15:57 but I think that it would be good to do some iterations there first 15:58 unless you want to go full on "move fast and break things" 15:58 I wouldn't mind doing that 15:58 but what sort of changes do you expect in the ppa.? 15:58 1) drop packages that are not going to be updated from CD (unity8, ubuntu web browser), but leave unity mostly intact? 15:58 is that to test the patches drops? 15:58 or the seed changes? 15:58 or...? 15:58 ubuntu-settings, the seeds, packages with dropped patches 16:00 hum 16:00 I don't have a srong opinion either way 16:00 others, wdyt? 16:00 ppa is fine to me 16:00 and we might find random upgrade problems before hitting the archive with them 16:00 what's the proposal again? 16:01 sounds safer to me, since people have gotten used to devel releases not massively breaking on them in recent years 16:01 using ppa vs destabilizing the archive for a bit 16:01 just test updating the ubuntu-meta + minimal set in a ppa before 'the switch' 16:01 how will unity7 in universe still work if the patches are dropped? 16:02 degraded ? 16:02 that's a topic we didn't touch yet 16:02 Laney are you proposing iso build that include this PPA in the short term? 16:02 and probably worth another meeting 16:02 unity7 would still work, but apps won't integrate as well into it 16:02 can't we have both Unity and Gnome on the CD for at least a little bit during development (or am I missing what this conversation is about) 16:02 flexiondotorg: nah, mainly for upgrading 16:02 attente: I guess we can keep the most important ones 16:02 OK 16:02 jbicha, do you have a list of packages that need MIRed? 16:02 attente: but, integration is not much important 16:02 I'd try to keep them unless they don't create troubles for merging though 16:03 just like we had both Unity7 and 8 on Zesty image - I'm not saying we have to ship it, but for iterating to a new package set it makes it easier, right/ 16:03 seb128: not yet, but I can propose a partial list of MIR needs to our mailing list 16:03 jbicha, that would be nice 16:04 guess we'd need to have an initial proposal for leaf packages first 16:04 there are several choices that will need to be discussed there (keeping shotwell for instance) 16:04 let's not discuss apps selection in a first round 16:04 first we get a working GNOME session with our apps 16:04 then we discuss inside the session 16:04 +1/-1? 16:05 that's fine, just saying that it impacts how many MIRs need to be done and when 16:05 +1 16:05 yes, we can try to get a working GNOME session first then worry about the specific apps after 16:05 +1 16:05 Laney, yeah, good point 16:05 best to keep it lower at the start 16:05 let's see we do another meeting next week to discuss again 16:05 jbicha, can you do the required-minimal-MIR-set for then? 16:06 and let's use the ppa meanwhile 16:06 since archive is not open yet and we didn't figure out the details 16:06 let's say* 16:06 so it gives us 16:06 seb128: yes you can assign me to propose an initial MIR list this week 16:06 - using peer review&channel to sync work 16:06 thanks jbicha 16:06 - initial MIR list to be built by jbicha 16:07 - use the ppa from Laney to start 16:07 - another meeting next week when we review the MIR list and discuss some first tech details 16:07 yeah feel free to upload there often 16:07 is that a good summary? 16:07 seb128, +1 and captured in the pad 16:07 anything people disagree with? 16:07 great 16:07 I have a second thing for this topic 16:07 * seb128 listens 16:07 what do you think about doing one of the early distro milestones 16:07 like say alpha 2? 16:08 +1 16:08 what's the point over testing dailys? 16:08 people will actually do it 16:08 they can actually test dailys as well 16:08 Get community testing around a known release. 16:08 I am aware they can 16:08 but if you think it helps we can do it 16:08 It gives us a nice clear goal to work towards 16:08 but I've been observing milestones for a while and I know that people test the named ones and don't really test the daily ones 16:08 we can do a coordinated public push for testing, either around a specific milestone or a specific daily 16:08 and it's a deadline 16:09 Laney: I would concur - Xubuntu sees exactly that 16:09 when is a2 likely to be? 16:09 and the 'press' might care (if you care about that) 16:09 last cycle there was only 1 Alpha and that worked well 16:09 do we have a schedule yet? 16:09 nope 16:09 * mhall119 volunteers to help spread the call for testing in the community 16:09 we don't even have a name yet! ;) 16:09 but you can look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZestyZapus/ReleaseSchedule for an idea 16:09 "end of June" for A1 16:09 k, seems people are mostly in favor of it 16:10 or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/YakketyYak/ReleaseSchedule might be easier to compare 16:10 (Zesty Alpha 1 didn't happen) 16:10 "end of July" for A2 16:10 so let's call that a decision 16:10 Laney is right, the tech press will pickup and talk about the first milestone release with GNOME as the default 16:10 what's the goal? 16:10 I think we want to give it testing 16:10 jbicha: sure, but it will do if a flavour volunteers to do it 16:10 not press coverage yet at this point 16:10 lots of eyeballs and bug reports 16:10 the timing for Z A1 sucked royally 16:10 having "it's still a rough experience" press isn't going to help 16:11 seb128: we can message it as "first access, help us find all the bugs so we can fix them before release" 16:11 likely it will be advertised whenever gnome lands as the default in the nighties anyway, right? 16:11 I guess so 16:11 gQuigs: nightlies don't usually get much attention 16:12 but the headline will be, first nightly with Gnome Shell as the default, we should expect attention then too 16:12 if you want to get a bunch of people testing and filing bugs, a milestone will help you 16:12 not saying to not do the alpha 16:12 We'll give nightlies attention 16:12 We already build them on the imaging server everyday 16:12 We can test them on hardware. 16:12 ryanleesipes: well I know S76 will, I meant the wider press/community 16:13 k, so decision is to use alpha (2) milestone points to do a call for testing? 16:13 willcooke, Laney, ^ 16:13 +1 from me 16:13 I don't think the "wider press/community" is here... 16:13 That's cool for me 16:13 +1 16:13 k, let's move on then 16:13 actually the main benefit for myself is the deadline :P 16:13 +1 Alpha 2 milestone 16:13 I believe we are working steadly without those 16:13 but if you guys see value in it that's fine to me 16:13 ok... 16:14 let's see how it goes 16:14 :-) 16:14 next topic? 16:14 just looking at the questions..... 16:14 one thing we should discuss is the topics we want to put on the agenda for next week's meeting 16:14 and also decide on a slot for that meeting 16:15 I'm skipping over the technical questions in that list, but happy to discuss after the meeting 16:15 I think one thing we need to discuss earlier is gdm vs lightdm because that''s needed for the iso 16:15 Just for the record, what is considered technical willcooke? 16:15 are launchpad blueprints still used to plan and track work each release? 16:15 seb128: mailing list for gdm discussion? 16:15 can we do questions after the meeting? because to be honest i;m not really following :/ 16:15 Let me speak to Robert re: lightdm and see what he can make next week and I'll put the word round 16:15 jbicha, list for discussions and trying to get to a conclusion during the meeting maybe? 16:16 willcooke, Laney ^ wdyt? 16:16 sure 16:16 I don't really understand what there is to discuss atm so someone who knows the issues should start it 16:17 (re the display manager) 16:17 I'm not sure 16:17 lightdm vs gdm seems one to me 16:17 What issues are there with GDM? 16:17 just that one 16:17 not sure how much gnome-shell relies on gdm and if lightdm can provide the same features 16:17 exactly 16:17 right, we can't make a decision today without Robert's input anyway 16:17 that's probably one for robert_ancell 16:17 jackpot51, it's a complexe codebase and we like lightdm 16:17 IIRC, lightdm had some work to add features a customer wanted, so it might impact commercial engagements within canonical 16:17 Can someone kick that off on the mailing list, and I'll speak to Robert and ask him to comment there 16:17 ^^ 16:18 I can do that 16:18 thanks seb128 16:18 The lock screen is a bit broken in ubuntu-gnome in lightdm, I think 16:18 that could maybe be fixed 16:18 lightdm has guest session as well that we like 16:18 That appears to be the only issue 16:18 I would think our default position should be the upstream one (i.e. gdm), but let's see what the issues are 16:18 there is work either way, but we need robert_ancell for that discussion 16:18 we'd want to re-develop the guest session feature there 16:18 ya 16:18 just curious, how much does dropping lightdm affect other flavors? 16:18 let's do that 16:18 Why ship it when that is part of GNOME's effort? It'll only create problems in the future 16:18 i can take a look to the lokscreen issue in case 16:19 Who uses the guest session feature? 16:19 will investiage that, and the enterprise changes for the ML 16:19 we created lightdm for a reason and that reason might still be partially true 16:19 jackpot51: I love the guest session feature 16:19 anyway that's not a topic of today 16:19 another topic? 16:19 I'm sure it is 16:20 gdm keeps a session running afaik ;-) 16:20 We could solve this by having a "guest" user added to the system... 16:20 oh right, o_gra complained about that some days ago 16:20 just referring to the 'light' part 16:20 Ok, so we'll follow up on the ML for lightdm / gdm discussions 16:20 anyway, that's for the thread 16:20 moving on 16:20 Next topic... 16:20 next? 16:21 jbicha would like to talk about... 16:21 #topic Out Of Box 16:21 I have read thousands of comments in the past 2 weeks. Some people like GNOME. Some think it could be a lot better if there were a few tweaks (like shipping a left-hand Dock like Unity). Some hate GNOME. 16:21 I think we could reach some of the 3rd group if we can help out the 2nd group. 16:21 that might be a topic for the better organized meeting when we have robert, tim, etc 16:21